Draw all men to myself

[Allan]

I promised some questions, so here goes:
Do you define "world" as every person without exception? If so, the question arises, so how can God reconcile every person to him, when many don't want to be reconciled and refuse to choose him as Savior?

The passage seems to be making a flat statement that God is in Christ reconciling. Not attempting to reconcile, or potentially reconciling, but actually reconciling. Further, God is not imputing their trespasses to them. So we have two things going on here: Reconciling and not imputing trespasses. Who the objects of God's action? You can see the problem is "world" means everybody. It has to mean everybody is saved, no one goes to hell. So to fit with other scripture, "world" must mean something else.

You said "As this reconciling is going on toward the world, then those who WOULD BE (choose to be-place faith in) reconciled, it is then that their trespasses are not imputed to them."

Ah, so those who are being reconciled are only those who choose to be. Not every person without exception. So "world" does not mean everybody. Further, the passage does not state that reconciling is going on toward the world. God is actually reconciling, not reconciling toward or attempting to do so.

I guess I've made more statements than asked questions. My desire is to let this passage inform my theology, not try to squeeze the passage to fit the view that I already hold.

What I gave in all actuality was not a proper exegete as I had seriously done the scripture a bad rendering (I didn’t do a double check on what I wrote and I apologize). It was wrong, though right in the general wrong even still. Sorry about that, it was my mistake.

The verb tense (active participle) was correct with regard to reconciling. However what is being stated is something much different than what I wrote. Actually Ted, it was an error of yours that caused me to look again at what I said. You stated God IS in Christ (present tense) when in fact scripture states God WAS in Christ (past tense). This verse is written not as flat statement (maybe I just didn’t get what you meant by it) but a reminder that Christ came not to judge but to save. Note the verse 18

And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled(past tense) us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; ~ (-) is added clarification by me.

Two things are stated here; 1. Who reconciled (past tense here) us by Jesus, and 2. Now we have that same ministry of reconciliation.
Then it goes to verse 19:

To wit, (as or as we know) that God was in Christ, reconciling (present active) the world unto himself, not imputing (passing judgment upon) their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation ~ (-) is additional clarification by me..

Now we see that God was in Christ or actively apart of what He (Christ) was doing and that being when Christ was here (earthly ministry) He was reconciling the world to himself. What or who is this world??? Here is what scripture says in relation to Christ’s ministry and the world.

Jhn 1:9 [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Jhn 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Jesus is the light that lights (illuminate or reveals to) every man that cometh into the WORLD, and this same world that was made by Him and whom He was amongst did not know Him. Who is it, it is every man (person) that comes into the world (as in World). It was this reconciling that God desired and not imputing (casting judgment upon) their trespasses. We see this also in John 3

Jhn 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Now you may wonder why I placed the Moses lifting up the serpent along with the other verses that show Christ not condemning or Judging the world yet but seeking to save or reconcile them to Himself. The story of Moses and the Serpent is pertinent because anyone who was afflicted could simply look to this symbol of sin (acknowledging their sin and needing Gods salvation) And God would THEN take away their reproach or trespass, forgive and restore them to life.
Did God only choose certain ones who were afflicted and in sin to acknowledge their sin and make the others not do so??
Was there only a statement made by God that anyone could do this but that it was only for certain people in reality??
That is not what the scriptures states nor does it insinuate anything close that. So too, Jesus is lifted up for any who will acknowledge and receive Him.

It is for this reason we are ambassadors for Christ and in His stead that 2 Cor 5:20 states we pray (urge or plead) that you be reconciled unto God through Christ Jesus the Lord!

And finally before theses verses look if you will to verse 15

2Cr 5:15 And [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Which shows if He died for all then all those who live (not are made alive) should live for Him who has made the reconciling possible if you will but believe

 

[Allan]

The point I'm making is that unless God has a general call that goes to every individual to repent.... He would not be just in His judgement of them. I'm sorry I thought this thread was about God calling all men.

Easy Reformed, you seem a bit high strung. I thought you were addressing me concerning what I was speaking about with some others and simply replied back. Sorry for the confusion.

I personally don't believe in the General verses effectual Calls (as you recall) and for the main reason you stated herein regarding Gods Justice or Righteousness.
You use what I call the false wieght view.
You state God calls all men to repent (general call) but only those people God chooses will repent (effectaul Call). It is a false wieght. Something used to give the appearance of what is Just and Good but is nothing but a show.

Man will be condemded on how he responds to that call (true wieght).
If God alone is the only one who can make a man respond in repentence and He gives the Call out to ALL but will only allow those to respond that He chooses. You have now effectivly made God a deciever to everyone else to whom the call of God went for God never intended they should repent. So you have God desiring them to stay in damnation.

This is a false wieght as it makes God a deciever that He actaully wants the world to repent for He does not. If He did desire the world to repent He would have effectively provided this opportunity. A false wieght or a deciever God hates.

There is no Justice in what I described. If I'm wrong in what I stated you believe, that being God wants all men everywhere to repent but only gives certain people to ability to do so. Therefore He calls out to all men but makes only some able to respond by repenting and ALL men will be judged on their responce to the call to repent, please correct me.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Easy Reformed, you seem a bit high strung. I thought you were addressing me concerning what I was speaking about with some others and simply replied back. Sorry for the confusion.

I personally don't believe in the General verses effectual Calls (as you recall) and for the main reason you stated herein regarding Gods Justice or Righteousness.
You use what I call the false wieght view.
You state God calls all men to repent (general call) but only those people God chooses will repent (effectaul Call). It is a false wieght. Something used to give the appearance of what is Just and Good but is nothing but a show.

Man will be condemded on how he responds to that call (true wieght).
If God alone is the only one who can make a man respond in repentence and He gives the Call out to ALL but will only allow those to respond that He chooses. You have now effectivly made God a deciever to everyone else to whom the call of God went for God never intended they should repent. So you have God desiring them to stay in damnation.

This is a false wieght as it makes God a deciever that He actaully wants the world to repent for He does not. If He did desire the world to repent He would have effectively provided this opportunity. A false wieght or a deciever God hates.

There is no Justice in what I described. If I'm wrong in what I stated you believe, that being God wants all men everywhere to repent but only gives certain people to ability to do so. Therefore He calls out to all men but makes only some able to respond by repenting and ALL men will be judged on their responce to the call to repent, please correct me.

You are stating that in this case He would only allow the elect to respond. That is false. God genuinely offers salvation to whosoever will. He does not put a barrier in their way. They have built their own barrier. They freely choose according to their own nature. He does not force them to not believe. A typical logic that free willers use.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Easy Reformed, you seem a bit high strung. I thought you were addressing me concerning what I was speaking about with some others and simply replied back. Sorry for the confusion.

I personally don't believe in the General verses effectual Calls (as you recall) and for the main reason you stated herein regarding Gods Justice or Righteousness.
You use what I call the false wieght view.
You state God calls all men to repent (general call) but only those people God chooses will repent (effectaul Call). It is a false wieght. Something used to give the appearance of what is Just and Good but is nothing but a show.

Man will be condemded on how he responds to that call (true wieght).
If God alone is the only one who can make a man respond in repentence and He gives the Call out to ALL but will only allow those to respond that He chooses. You have now effectivly made God a deciever to everyone else to whom the call of God went for God never intended they should repent. So you have God desiring them to stay in damnation.

This is a false wieght as it makes God a deciever that He actaully wants the world to repent for He does not. If He did desire the world to repent He would have effectively provided this opportunity. A false wieght or a deciever God hates.

There is no Justice in what I described. If I'm wrong in what I stated you believe, that being God wants all men everywhere to repent but only gives certain people to ability to do so. Therefore He calls out to all men but makes only some able to respond by repenting and ALL men will be judged on their responce to the call to repent, please correct me.

Sorry if I seem that way. I'm not high strung at all. I was simply stating fact.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Easy Reformed, you seem a bit high strung. I thought you were addressing me concerning what I was speaking about with some others and simply replied back. Sorry for the confusion.

I personally don't believe in the General verses effectual Calls (as you recall) and for the main reason you stated herein regarding Gods Justice or Righteousness.
You use what I call the false wieght view.
You state God calls all men to repent (general call) but only those people God chooses will repent (effectaul Call). It is a false wieght. Something used to give the appearance of what is Just and Good but is nothing but a show.

Man will be condemded on how he responds to that call (true wieght).
If God alone is the only one who can make a man respond in repentence and He gives the Call out to ALL but will only allow those to respond that He chooses. You have now effectivly made God a deciever to everyone else to whom the call of God went for God never intended they should repent. So you have God desiring them to stay in damnation.

This is a false wieght as it makes God a deciever that He actaully wants the world to repent for He does not. If He did desire the world to repent He would have effectively provided this opportunity. A false wieght or a deciever God hates.

There is no Justice in what I described. If I'm wrong in what I stated you believe, that being God wants all men everywhere to repent but only gives certain people to ability to do so. Therefore He calls out to all men but makes only some able to respond by repenting and ALL men will be judged on their responce to the call to repent, please correct me.

It is dangerous to "personally believe" without biblical evidence. The bible stands regardless of what we personally believe.

God does not make anyone respond. He changes their nature to where they will respond.

I don't think God *wants* the world to repent. He commands them to, so that He will be just in His condemnation of those who do not. I think He will get glory out of those who do not repent. He takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked however.

I believe that Peter was writing to the elect or chosen, or those who have like faith in both of his letters. Read it and correct me if I'm wrong. God was not willing that any of the "who" (the elect) perish. Read it in context. 2 Peter 3:9 There is no contradiction there.

Don't worry about misrepresenting me..... bro. bob does it all the time.

 

[Allan]

Am I Brother Bod, no. I speak for me alone and my actions reflect on me alone.

With due respect, your comment on "personally believe" was uncalled for. For one to believe something there must be an object to which that belief is attacted and since I am speaking of scripture and doctrine that belief (from me anyway) is based, nay entrenched in scripture.

God does not make anyone respond. He changes their nature to where they will respond

You just proved God does MAKE people respond for He personally has to change them. This change does not give them the option to believe or not but is the very cause that they HAVE TO believe.

I don't think God *wants* the world to repent. He commands them to, so that He will be just in His condemnation of those who do not. I think He will get glory out of those who do not repent. He takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked however

SO the fact God commands all men everywhere to repent does not show God *wants* men to repent???
And just how pray-tell is God justified in His condemnation of those who will not respond and repent as He commands them to but will not allow them to. You have God punishing those who do not obey Him because He will not allow them to repent. Just??? Righteous??? Not according to His standard set forth in scripture (the true wieght) I agree He will get glory from those who do not believe but not because He wont allow (regerate) them to but because they do not want to. Thereby sealing themselves in their own choice to be judged on their merits and not Christs. God glorifies Himself by using Himself as that standard to which NO MAN can measure up. Thereby God takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked but since they desire to be judged outside of Christ they will be judged aginst Christ Alone. And as they are guilty of trying to exhalt themselves to the level of God and are cast down in the likeness of Satan himself.

I believe that Peter was writing to the elect or chosen, or those who have like faith in both of his letters. Read it and correct me if I'm wrong. God was not willing that any of the "who" (the elect) perish. Read it in context. 2 Peter 3:9 There is no contradiction there

I agree here without question as context dictates HERE that it is pertaining to the chosen God is waiting for in their due time.
It is the other verse that reflect this same comes to all, for all, though all will not believe it all. as in 1 Tim 2:3-5

3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

and 1 Tim 4;10

10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

and also Titus 2:11

11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

There are many more where these came from. :thumbs:

I do worry about misrepresenting since it shows I have not listened very well to better understand you and what you 'personally' believe. So to misrepresent you is to misrepresent me as though I do not care enough love and understand my brother. This is my thoughts and how I try to live with regard to brothers in Christ.

 

[Allan]

He does not put a barrier in their way. They have built their own barrier. They freely choose according to their own nature. He does not force them to not believe.

First - the whole choosing according to nature argument has never been able to be clearly or properly substantiated scriptually which is why we are still discussing today. Second - The whole freely choose deal I delt with in my previous posting as to God changing someone nature so the have no choice but believe IS making someone do something. But for the most part this is still dealt with in my previous posting.

:type: :wavey: :godisgood:

 

[Brother Bob]

God does not make anyone respond. He changes their nature to where they will respond.

I am Bro. Bob;
Now that that is settled can you show me scripture where it says God changes our nature, I hear that all the time from Calvinist. Now, I copied and pasted so I did not misquote you.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Am I Brother Bod, no. I speak for me alone and my actions reflect on me alone.

With due respect, your comment on "personally believe" was uncalled for. For one to believe something there must be an object to which that belief is attacted and since I am speaking of scripture and doctrine that belief (from me anyway) is based, nay entrenched in scripture.

You just proved God does MAKE people respond for He personally has to change them. This change does not give them the option to believe or not but is the very cause that they HAVE TO believe.
SO the fact God commands all men everywhere to repent does not show God *wants* men to repent???
And just how pray-tell is God justified in His condemnation of those who will not respond and repent as He commands them to but will not allow them to. You have God punishing those who do not obey Him because He will not allow them to repent. Just??? Righteous??? Not according to His standard set forth in scripture (the true wieght) I agree He will get glory from those who do not believe but not because He wont allow (regerate) them to but because they do not want to. Thereby sealing themselves in their own choice to be judged on their merits and not Christs. God glorifies Himself by using Himself as that standard to which NO MAN can measure up. Thereby God takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked but since they desire to be judged outside of Christ they will be judged aginst Christ Alone. And as they are guilty of trying to exhalt themselves to the level of God and are cast down in the likeness of Satan himself.
I agree here without question as context dictates HERE that it is pertaining to the chosen God is waiting for in their due time.
It is the other verse that reflect this same comes to all, for all, though all will not believe it all. as in 1 Tim 2:3-5
and 1 Tim 4;10 and also Titus 2:11 There are many more where these came from. :thumbs:

I do worry about misrepresenting since it shows I have not listened very well to better understand you and what you 'personally' believe. So to misrepresent you is to misrepresent me as though I do not care enough love and understand my brother. This is my thoughts and how I try to live with regard to brothers in Christ.

I appologize if I've offended you. I didn't mean to. In this medium, without being able to see facial expression, it is easy to not see what a person is truly saying. I was simply saying that it is dangerous to simply say "well I just don't believe that" without biblical basis. I can see where you definately base your beliefs upon the bible. I'm sorry. Forgive me?

No one has to believe. God changes the elect's nature to where they freely believe. The reprobate choose according to their nature.

The Timothy verse where all is used is the same word in the greek for all sorts of, as used later where Paul states that the love of money is the root of all sorts of evil. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs. Look up strongs 3956. He wants all sorts of or whosoever will to repent.

 

[reformedbeliever]

I am Bro. Bob;
Now that that is settled can you show me scripture where it says God changes our nature, I hear that all the time from Calvinist. Now, I copied and pasted so I did not misquote you.

Ephesians 2. Read it. When you are done with that I'll give you more.

 

[reformedbeliever]

First - the whole choosing according to nature argument has never been able to be clearly or properly substantiated scriptually which is why we are still discussing today. Second - The whole freely choose deal I delt with in my previous posting as to God changing someone nature so the have no choice but believe IS making someone do something. But for the most part this is still dealt with in my previous posting.

:type: :wavey: :godisgood:

Read John 8

 

[Brother Bob]

8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

This is "through faith" in other words to believe.
No one is not saying He don't change our heart after we believe.
This does not support what you advocate.

When you study these I give you some more.

He changes their nature to where they will respond.

I asked to show me this? Where He changes their nature so they believe?

 

[reformedbeliever]

8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

This is "through faith" in other words to believe.
No one is not saying He don't change our heart after we believe.
This does not support what you advocate.

When you study these I give you some more.

Pretty typical of you to take one verse out of context. Read the whole chapter.... especially this Ephesians 2: 1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2. in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

 

[reformedbeliever]

8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

This is "through faith" in other words to believe.
No one is not saying He don't change our heart after we believe.
This does not support what you advocate.

When you study these I give you some more.


I asked to show me this? Where He changes their nature so they believe?

I showed you where in Ephesians. You asked and I provided the scriptural answer. It is up to you whether or not you receive it. Are you being intellectually honest? Do I need to highlight the words in the verse in order for you to see it bob?

 

[webdog]

Back up a little further to chapter 1 and tell me the rest of the book is not based off being "in Christ". Count how many time this preposition is alluded to in the first dozen or so verses.

 

[Allan]

I have read it and used it to show the opposite view of what your view holds.

As I stated this has never been clearly or substantially proven to support your veiw, but just to give proper thought to your suggestion be a little more specific please about John *.

 

[webdog]

I showed you where in Ephesians. You asked and I provided the scriptural answer. It is up to you whether or not you receive it. Are you being intellectually honest?

I guess all of those who have not seen it that way in the last couple of centuries are being "intellectually dishonest" also? I see nothing from that text citing acting only according to nature, sorry.

 

[Brother Bob]

Pretty typical of you to take one verse out of context. Read the whole chapter.... especially this Ephesians 2: 1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2. in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Every thing here you posted come from faith (belief). Again, show me where it says He changes the nature first?

 

[reformedbeliever]

Every thing here you posted come from faith (belief). Again, show me where it says He changes the nature first?

1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2. in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Will this work? C'mon bob... be honest.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Every thing here you posted come from faith (belief). Again, show me where it says He changes the nature first?

Who is the author and finisher of our faith? Belief is not faith. Even demons believe.