While I would agree that the ones actually drawn to Christ as those that are elect, the passage in John 12 doesn't say that. It says all are drawn. What does this "all" mean? Does it mean all people without exception or all people without distinction. I believe the context supports the latter.
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"Draw" in Jn 6:44--What does it mean in your opinion???
- Thread starter Greektim
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While I would agree that the ones actually drawn to Christ as those that are elect, the passage in John 12 doesn't say that. It says all are drawn. What does this "all" mean? Does it mean all people without exception or all people without distinction. I believe the context supports the latter.
How can so many look at the same word and passage and not agree!!!!
Folks, like I stated in the first response I made, one should look at the passage, it is clearly written and in the order that was intended.
John 6:44:
The Father who sent Christ must draw that person.
It amazes me that folks are so focused on "draw" they neglect the principle of the first part of the verse, and also neglect to look for context meaning!
Less anyone think this is some mistaken thinking, or attempting to use one verse in attempting to establish doctrine, or some other misguided thinking, I would remind the folks that less than 10 verses later, the Christ becomes most specific as to the exact meaning, order, and exactly what "draw" is to mean.
Christ said that the meaning of "draw" is NOT within the natural humanistic ability of man, but IS the specific choice of the Father to give what is necessary that the person is then capable to come.
Those whom Christ KNEW would believe, do come.
Those who DO NOT have the capacity given by the Father to come, do not believe.
"It is the spirit that quickens; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."
Assign whatever meaning you want to assign to "draw." If you neglect what Christ said the word means and the context of that meaning, you will likely embrace error.
Draw is not pencil art!!!!
Folks, like I stated in the first response I made, one should look at the passage, it is clearly written and in the order that was intended.
John 6:44:
1) No man can come to me,
2) except the Father which hath sent me draw him:
3) and I will raise him up at the last day.
NO man has the ability within them self to come to Christ. 2) except the Father which hath sent me draw him:
3) and I will raise him up at the last day.
The Father who sent Christ must draw that person.
It amazes me that folks are so focused on "draw" they neglect the principle of the first part of the verse, and also neglect to look for context meaning!
Less anyone think this is some mistaken thinking, or attempting to use one verse in attempting to establish doctrine, or some other misguided thinking, I would remind the folks that less than 10 verses later, the Christ becomes most specific as to the exact meaning, order, and exactly what "draw" is to mean.
Christ said that the meaning of "draw" is NOT within the natural humanistic ability of man, but IS the specific choice of the Father to give what is necessary that the person is then capable to come.
Those whom Christ KNEW would believe, do come.
Those who DO NOT have the capacity given by the Father to come, do not believe.
"It is the spirit that quickens; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."
Assign whatever meaning you want to assign to "draw." If you neglect what Christ said the word means and the context of that meaning, you will likely embrace error.
Draw is not pencil art!!!!
Notice also, the one who is drawn is the same one that is raised.
psalms109:31
Active Member
With context with most of scripture those who are drawn are those who listen and learn from the Father. That Jesus word is not his own but the Father who sent Him and it is Spirit and life.
These are the one's who God said He would keep out of Israel the meek and the humble who trust in the Lord. Those who don't lean on their own understanding, but trust in the Lord. It is God good pleasure to hide the truth from the wise and the learned. So we know who God has chosen, it sure isn't those who lean on their own understanding, but those who trust in the Lord.
They who trust in the Lord have not chosen themselves they are chosen by God.
Those who trust in God through Jesus Christ our God , our Life, our Salvation, our Lord and not themselves are they saints or not? Do they still need saving? Are they part of the OASAS?
These are the one's who God said He would keep out of Israel the meek and the humble who trust in the Lord. Those who don't lean on their own understanding, but trust in the Lord. It is God good pleasure to hide the truth from the wise and the learned. So we know who God has chosen, it sure isn't those who lean on their own understanding, but those who trust in the Lord.
They who trust in the Lord have not chosen themselves they are chosen by God.
Those who trust in God through Jesus Christ our God , our Life, our Salvation, our Lord and not themselves are they saints or not? Do they still need saving? Are they part of the OASAS?
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convicted1
Guest
IOW, the likes of Calvin, Luther, Pink, MacArthur, Bunyan, et. al. "trump" what those others wrote years, if not centuries before they were born concerning the biblical definition of "draw"?
convicted1
Guest
convicted1
Guest
Brother, you're sure on a roll....keep up the great posting!!
:applause::applause::jesus::godisgood:
freeatlast
New Member
Man always can choose.
convicted1
Guest
Choose this day whom you shall serve......
Mary hath chosen that good part.......
I set before you a blessing and a curse, therefore choose life.......
convicted1
Guest
Amen. W/O a choice, you have coercement(sp?).
Yep,
Fallen man will always choose what is fallen. Even if they happen to choose what is considered good, in God's view it is worthless.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
In order to correctly interpret John 6 we must honestly answer these questions:
1) Who, at that time in history, was enabled to come to Christ?
2) Why were these enabled and not the rest?
3) Is this the same reason that unbelievers today are unable to come to Christ?
4) What are the means God uses to enable one to come to him?
5) Were these means available to all those in the audience in John 6? Are these means available now?
Please support your answers with scripture.
1) Who, at that time in history, was enabled to come to Christ?
2) Why were these enabled and not the rest?
3) Is this the same reason that unbelievers today are unable to come to Christ?
4) What are the means God uses to enable one to come to him?
5) Were these means available to all those in the audience in John 6? Are these means available now?
Please support your answers with scripture.
freeatlast
New Member
Then no one can be saved.
Well that would mean all calvinists are synergists as it is taught God changes the will to accept Him by giving man faith, not working independently of man. That is synergism.
I don't hold to the thinking that God "changes the will to accept Him."
I contend that God gives the man a "new nature" that includes a new will and the measure of faith. When that person is presented the gospel they believe because they have the capacity to believe.
It is not a matter of will choice, but of submission.
A believer submitting to the old nature's will does what that fallen will determines.
A believer submitting to the new nature's will does what the Spirit of God determines.
The unbeliever has only the fallen old nature will to which they will submit.
No one of them self can be saved.
All that the Father gave Christ.
Because the Father choose them to come to Christ
Yep.
The gift of God.
Nope
To whomever God chooses.
John 6.
freeatlast
New Member
No one has said they could.
You asked a question from my statement, and I replied.
freeatlast
New Member
But your reply was incorrect based on your post.
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