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Drinking Alcohol Moderately
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dwmoeller1
New Member
Apostles are filled the the Spirit
They speak in tongues
Some respond by mocking "They have had too much grape juice."???
Riiiiiight. Makes perfect sense.
Oh wait, I meant - Thats absurd!! Clearly the mockers were mocking them by saying they were drunk. The mockery was that they had had too much alcohol to drink. This fact is then reinforced by Peter's response: 15These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It's only nine in the morning!
dwmoeller1
New Member
And how exactly did that refute anything I said? I already granted that cider begins to mean juice in the early 1800s (as shown by the sometimes used qualification of "hard" cider).
EDIT: For a discussion of the meaning prior to the 1800s, do a Google search on the etymology of cider. And even if I am totally off in my etymology from 1800 on, this still doesn't change the fact that using "cider" to define "shekar" is a fallacy.
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I don't understand that Peter guy. He would have shut them all up if he had said, "Guys, you're nuts. We're followers of Jesus. Obviously we don't drink alcoholic beverages!"
dwmoeller1
New Member
I totally agree. Those are all very bad reasons to do anything. Eating food included.
But that the world abuses something doesn't mean Christians should abstain. The world abuses food, money, sex and marriage yet instead of abstaining we as Christians instead seek to provide the proper example for using/doing these things. It is inconsistent to point out the world's abuse of alcohol as reason why we should abstain - Christians don't argue such with other things.
But that wasn't your argument at the time. Your argument was, basically, because some people abuse alcohol and hurt and kill people, then alcohol is to blame and, therefore, should be prohibited.
One of these things is not like the other:
Originally Posted by dwmoeller1
you don't see cider=apple juice till the early 1900s.
Originally Posted by dwmoeller1
cider begins to mean juice in the early 1800s
They are not contradictory statements.
Notice the first statement "cider=apple juice"
The second statement includes the words, "begins to mean", indicating a gradual shift.
The two statements together indicate the beginning of a gradual shift (early 1800s) to the essential completion of that shift (early 1900s).
Our schools have really failed teaching elementary logic skills.
dwmoeller1
New Member
What Baptist Believer said.
Along with the added note of interest that part of the reason for the shift has to do with technology. Prior to the ability to keep juice cooled and thus unfermented for long periods of time, juice of any sort was limited to harvest time. So, even during the period of time when cider could mean either juice or fermented juice, during most of the year such a distinction was moot. If asked if you wanted a cider during the spring in 1850, there could be no doubt that a fermented drink was meant since that would have been the only choice available. Nowadays, since juice is readily available at all times of the year, and since unfermented apple juice has become by far the most common way to drink it, cider effectively equals apple juice. Use the word today and the vast majority of people will automatically equate it with an unfermented apple juice. Hence, today, cider = apple juice for all intents and purposes.
Additionally, I will again point out that whether or not I am wrong/right on this is ultimately beside the point. It is fallacious to try and define ancient words by their modern meanings.
And lastly, even if I am wrong about the details of how cider came to mean juice, every single authority on etymology seems to agree that the word originally referred to an alcoholic beverage. Only those who wish to fallaciously argue that shekar could also mean grape juice based on the meaning of cider deny this fact.
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The Bible teaches MODERATION and condemns abuse/drunkeness. Christians used the word TEMPERANCE (same thing) to fight the abuse of alcohol in the industrialized countries in the 1800's.
Man-made rules shifted from the Biblical MDOERATION into the policy of ABSTINENCE in the 20th Century. Fine with me for anyone who wants to follow total abstinence from alcohol.
But don't parade like it is BIBLICAL to abstain. It is a personal life-style choice.
Man-made rules shifted from the Biblical MDOERATION into the policy of ABSTINENCE in the 20th Century. Fine with me for anyone who wants to follow total abstinence from alcohol.
But don't parade like it is BIBLICAL to abstain. It is a personal life-style choice.
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
I can handle it. (hic) I am drot nunk. (hic)
Moderation, (as most call it today) is throw around as if the Spirit gives man liberty to sin.
Alcohol is toxic to the organs of the body. That is why it is called an intoxicant.
The word moderation is only found one time in the Bible. Philippians 4:5. And it is not giving liberty to drink toxic chemicals. Eating and drinking are not even in the context of Philippians 4:5.
So many want to claim the Bible allows for drinking in moderation. I don't see it. From what I can see, every verse that speaks of an alcoholic wine, God tells us to steer away from it.
I'll choose to obey God on this one.
Moderation, (as most call it today) is throw around as if the Spirit gives man liberty to sin.
Alcohol is toxic to the organs of the body. That is why it is called an intoxicant.
The word moderation is only found one time in the Bible. Philippians 4:5. And it is not giving liberty to drink toxic chemicals. Eating and drinking are not even in the context of Philippians 4:5.
So many want to claim the Bible allows for drinking in moderation. I don't see it. From what I can see, every verse that speaks of an alcoholic wine, God tells us to steer away from it.
I'll choose to obey God on this one.
Actually, you are disobeying God on this one.
Did you know you can die from caffeine intoxication? H2O intoxication? Are they toxic to the organs in the body, or like alcohol...is it the excess that is toxic? Poison has no medical benefits, but research shows alcohol does.
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
Benefits such as cirrhosis of the liver? peptic ulcers? benefits such as chronic weight loss? bleeding disorders?
And the ultimate benefit... death.
I can see why so many want to drink it.
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
The Word of God assures me I am not wrong on this one.
Please give me every verse that tells me it is a sin to drink alcohol. Be sure to say where Paul damned Pastor Timothy for using wine because of his health.
I can give you many verses that say it is a sin to drink alcohol in EXCESS, to ABUSE it, to become DRUNKEN.
But I use alcohol regularly. It is in the medicine I take 5 times a day (25% alcohol solution - twice as much as a glass of wine). It is in NyQuil for sleep.
Man-made rules sicken me when they are forced upon others to make them "think" they are spiritual. In reality, my forcing personal convictions on you is the height of spiritual abuse.
Talk about sin.
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
A. ALCOHOL CAN LEAD TO POVERTY...
1. A warning against those who love wine - Pr 21:17
2. A warning against spending time with winebibbers and drunkards
- Pr 23:20-21
-- Alcohol has been the downfall of many businessmen
B. ALCOHOL CAN DESTROY LIVES...
1. It can lead to woe and sorrow, contentions and complaints,
wounds without cause and redness of eyes - Pr 23:29-30
2. It is seductive, and can destroy one just like the seductress
- Pr 23:31-32; 5:3-5; 6:24-26
3. It can alter your senses, leading you to say things you'll
later regret (e.g., "office parties") - Pr 23:33
4. It gives a false sense of security, exposing you to great
danger (e.g., "driving drunk") - Pr 23:34-35
-- Alcohol has destroyed many lives, both those who drink and
innocent ones who cross their paths
C. ALCOHOL IMPAIRS JUDGMENT...
1. Which is why kings and princes were to abstain - Pr 31:4-5
2. It is better reserved for the dying and devastated - Pr 31:6-7
-- Alcohol is not for those who would be wise
[Indeed, "Wine is a mocker, Strong drink is a brawler, And whoever is
led astray by it is not wise." (Pr 20:1). Because of such warnings,
and with the serious problems with alcohol in our society, let's review
what is said about...]
II. ALCOHOL IN THE LIVES OF CHRISTIANS
A. WHAT IS CONDEMNED...
1. Drunkenness
a. A work of darkness, not an element of the armor of light
- Ro 13:11-14
b. Conduct that not repented of will keep one out of the
kingdom of God - 1Co 6:9-10; Ga 5:19-21
c. Conduct suitable for church discipline - 1Co 5:11-13
2. Social drinking
a. We are to dedicate ourselves to doing the will of God, not
the lusts of men - 1Pe 4:1-2
b. Thus we are to abstain from drunkenness, revelries, drinking
parties - 1Pe 4:3
c. Though we should expect others to think ill of us for
abstaining - 1Pe 4:4
-- The popular and common use of alcohol has no place in the life
of the Christian
B. WHAT IS COMMANDED...
1. Concern for the weaknesses of others - Ro 14:14-18
a. Are we willing to destroy the one for whom Christ died?
b. Are we more interested in righteousness, peace, and joy in
the Holy Spirit?
2. Willingness to forego wine if a stumbling block to others - Ro
14:19-21
a. Do we know someone who struggles with alcohol abuse and
addiction?
b. Do we love them more than any presumed right we may have to
drink?
3. Evidently Timothy had chosen to forego wine for such reasons
- cf. 1Ti 5:23
a. Paul prescribed that Timothy drink wine for medicinal
purposes
b. Wine was often used to purify water, yet for some reason
Timothy had abstained
-- The Christian must prayerfully consider the role of influence
regarding alcohol
-- taken from Mark Copeland's semon, "Wisdom Regarding Alcohol"
God's Word tells me that we have been made kings and priests unto him. I also read in his Word that kings are forbidden to drink lest they forget the law and pervert the affliction of the wicked.
I will obey him and abstain.
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Proverbs 21:17 He who loves pleasure will become a poor man; He who loves wine and oil will not become rich.
We see that this is not speaking of just having a drink of wine - but one who is addicted to it. Do you not like pleasure? Do you seek pleasure in your life? I know I do. I look to enjoy God's creation. It gives me pleasure. I love a cup of tea - it gives me pleasure. But I don't "LOVE" pleasure. Instead, I love the Lord. I will do things to forgo pleasure in service to Him. Alcohol is the same. This is not a prohibition of alcohol because if it is, then we must prohibit pleasure and oil as well!!
Proverbs 23:20-21 For the heavy drinker and the glutton will come to poverty, And drowsiness will clothe one with rags.
Well, we can see this is clearly not speaking of not partaking but a "heavy drinker".
Drunkenness is the downfall of some. But so are women, power, love of money and so many other things.
OK - Let's look at the whole thing and I'll change words to make it Biblically accurate:
You have just proven that God did not command His people to abstain - so you are not obeying Him but your own man-made standards.
You have just proven that God did not command His people to abstain - so you are not obeying Him but your own man-made standards.
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