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Drinking Alcohol
- Thread starter Rhetorician
- Start date
Brother James
New Member
Lets take up an offering and buy Churchmontana a bottle of scotch. I might help 'em get over thier self rightoues delusions.
MatthewHenry
New Member
Let me ask a simple question?
If the disiples and Christ didn't use real wine at The Lord's Supper or Last supper, then why did Paul write an Epistle to the Church in Corinth, instructing them on how to CORRECTLY perform The Lord's Table?
Answer: Because they were turning it into a DRUNKEN Feast! (with Real Wine!)
Not that I at all support drinking Alcohol of any sort. But this argument is not valid.
MH
If the disiples and Christ didn't use real wine at The Lord's Supper or Last supper, then why did Paul write an Epistle to the Church in Corinth, instructing them on how to CORRECTLY perform The Lord's Table?
Answer: Because they were turning it into a DRUNKEN Feast! (with Real Wine!)
Not that I at all support drinking Alcohol of any sort. But this argument is not valid.
MH
Matthew 11:18-19 (NASB)
18 "For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon!'
19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds."
Why is this being ignored by those who "think" drinking wine is bad?
Why oh why?
18 "For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon!'
19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds."
Why is this being ignored by those who "think" drinking wine is bad?
Why oh why?
This subject came up in my SS class once, and one lady was extremely adamant that "drinking ANY alcoholic beverage was strictly forbidden by the Scripture.
I respectfully requested the actual source of such, and all she ever gave was , "I don't know exactly where it is, but it's there!"
Needless to say, I never received the sources of "total abstention" as per Scripture!
I have no use for the stuff, but to claim that God forbids it, just because some people (AND satan) misuse it, is simply adding to the Word of God!
OleSchoolBaptist
New Member
I agree. I once asked where in scripture this was and people liked to quote Proverbs 20:1. When I ask them what it means they think I am joking. I simply ask them to explain how "wine is a mocker", How "Strong Drink is raging" and how is one deceived by it?
Usually sputtering and stuttering is all one gets.
There is a valid NT reason for abstinence from alcohol:
Romans 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
Although in a case of "reverse offence" I doubt that today anyone would stumble to know that some Baptists are "offended" by the now traditional grape juice and insist upon real wine for communion.
HankD
Romans 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
Although in a case of "reverse offence" I doubt that today anyone would stumble to know that some Baptists are "offended" by the now traditional grape juice and insist upon real wine for communion.
HankD
OleSchoolBaptist
New Member
Yes thats true. But is it a sin to drink in ones own house? Lets say you and your wife are having a nice romantic dinner, is it a sin to have a glass or two of wine?
Now invite a few people over and I do believe it might be a sin. The focus on this verse is one's public lifestyle.
This subject came up in my SS class once, and one lady was extremely adamant that "drinking ANY alcoholic beverage was strictly forbidden by the Scripture.
I respectfully requested the actual source of such, and all she ever gave was , "I don't know exactly where it is, but it's there!"
Needless to say, I never received the sources of "total abstention" as per Scripture!
I have no use for the stuff, but to claim that God forbids it, just because some people (AND satan) misuse it, is simply adding to the Word of God! </font>[/QUOTE]So, we find someone who doesn't know thier Bible and discount a doctrine because we don't want to look.
I also was amused by the poster who stated that IT WASN'T NEW WINE. Whatever. Jesus said a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. Fermentation is a type of sin...it is ROT. It is DECAY.
You want scripture for new wine: Prov.3:10
For NOT EVEN LOOKING at fermented wine? Prov.23:31
Of course, as proverbs says, the winebibbers want to keep thier wine, so this will be discounted. WINE, as in alcholic wine, is A MOCKER. If you look at it you are a FOOL. That is Bible. So, here it is...your choices:
1. The Bible is not God's word because it contains contradictions.
2. Christ is a fool because he made and drank fermented wine.
3. You are wrong, and the Bible is right. Period.
I choose number 3
OleSchoolBaptist
New Member
Your premise is off here brother. There are quite a few verses in Proverbs that "contradict" other passages of scripture. For instance Proverbs 16:7 states "When a man's ways please the LORD, he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him." yet it is obvious from Jesus' life it isn't "true" . Also compare the above passage with Acts 14:19 "And there came thither certain Jews from Antioch and Iconium, who persuaded the people, and, having stoned Paul, drew him out of the city, supposing he had been dead." As is obvious there must be a deeper meaning.
Now excessive drinking is clearly condemned in scripture. just as excessive eating and men having long hair. To set a limit on any is legalism. God's Word doesn't say after x amount of drinks you are now drunk, just as it never says after x amount of food you are a glutton.
Both are subjective to each individual person.
[/qb][/QUOTE]Your premise is off here brother. There are quite a few verses in Proverbs that "contradict" other passages of scripture. For instance Proverbs 16:7 states "When a man's ways please the LORD, he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him." yet it is obvious from Jesus' life it isn't "true" . Also compare the above passage with Acts 14:19 "And there came thither certain Jews from Antioch and Iconium, who persuaded the people, and, having stoned Paul, drew him out of the city, supposing he had been dead." As is obvious there must be a deeper meaning.
Now excessive drinking is clearly condemned in scripture. just as excessive eating and men having long hair. To set a limit on any is legalism. God's Word doesn't say after x amount of drinks you are now drunk, just as it never says after x amount of food you are a glutton.
Both are subjective to each individual person. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Sorry, don't buy it, Brother. If I live right, as a general rule, in the grand scope of society, people will be more willing to do business with me, the "king" will be happy because I pay my taxes, my children will be good citizens, etc. You are comparing Apples and Oranges. MOST of my enemies (John 8:44) are at peace with me MOST of the time...however, when, through the power of the Gospel I call attention to thier SIN, there is PERSONAL offence and persecution results. Two different animals. NO CONTRADICTION AT ALL. BUT if you claim that New wine and WINE THAT MOVETH ITSELF ARIGHT IN THE CUP are the same...then you have a problem. By the way, Pauls' reference to a little wine for your stomach...they are now saying that the healthiest thing you can drink for prevention of desease and gastrointestinal distress is GRAPE JUICE>>>>>>>> W I N E! Let God be true and every man a liar.
Now excessive drinking is clearly condemned in scripture. just as excessive eating and men having long hair. To set a limit on any is legalism. God's Word doesn't say after x amount of drinks you are now drunk, just as it never says after x amount of food you are a glutton.
Both are subjective to each individual person. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Sorry, don't buy it, Brother. If I live right, as a general rule, in the grand scope of society, people will be more willing to do business with me, the "king" will be happy because I pay my taxes, my children will be good citizens, etc. You are comparing Apples and Oranges. MOST of my enemies (John 8:44) are at peace with me MOST of the time...however, when, through the power of the Gospel I call attention to thier SIN, there is PERSONAL offence and persecution results. Two different animals. NO CONTRADICTION AT ALL. BUT if you claim that New wine and WINE THAT MOVETH ITSELF ARIGHT IN THE CUP are the same...then you have a problem. By the way, Pauls' reference to a little wine for your stomach...they are now saying that the healthiest thing you can drink for prevention of desease and gastrointestinal distress is GRAPE JUICE>>>>>>>> W I N E! Let God be true and every man a liar.
OleSchoolBaptist
New Member
Well... Now they (who are they?) are saying the healthies thing you can drink is grape juice? And you then state let God be true and every man a liar. What blatant hypocrisy...
Well, then what was that wine Jesus made? Why did God allow the Jewish believers to be able to purchase strong drink (along with wine), and even drink it, WITH THE TITHE?
Explain this to me?
Context is key. Your poor paraphrase would mean even looking at a bottle of beer is a sin. The true context is in "gazing" upon the wine, that is constantly desiring and thinking about it (alcoholism).
I think this statement is a little judgemental if you are referring to those who do not agree with your stance of abstinence. I think the Bible has more verses supporting the drinking of alcohol (with the Almighty God saying it is OK to purchase it) than for the other, legalistic side.
For those who think the wine Jesus made was unalcoholic, what wine exactly does the Bible say in John 2?
(ESV) Joh 2:1 On the third day there was a wedding at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there.
Joh 2:2 Jesus also was invited to the wedding with his disciples.
Joh 2:3 When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to him, "They have no wine."
Joh 2:4 And Jesus said to her, "Woman, what does this have to do with me? My hour has not yet come."
Joh 2:5 His mother said to the servants, "Do whatever he tells you."
Joh 2:6 Now there were six stone water jars there for the Jewish rites of purification, each holding twenty or thirty gallons.
Joh 2:7 Jesus said to the servants, "Fill the jars with water." And they filled them up to the brim.
Joh 2:8 And he said to them, "Now draw some out and take it to the master of the feast." So they took it.
Joh 2:9 When the master of the feast tasted the water now become wine, and did not know where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom
Joh 2:10 and said to him, "Everyone serves the good wine first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now."
Comparing Scripture to Scripture, what kind of wine does God say the Lord of Hosts will serve in Isaiah 25:6?
(ESV)Isa 25:6 On this mountain the LORD of hosts will make for all peoples a feast of rich food, a feast of well-aged wine, of rich food full of marrow, of aged wine well refined.
It has been common knowledge for centuries that the best wine is the oldest, well aged wine. To try to twist this to mean grape juice is doing a huge injustice to God's Word, as only alcoholic wine can be "well aged". God tells us He only serves the best in Isaiah, as did God's Son while on earth.
Dunamis XX
New Member
The wine that was consumed in biblical times was not what we know as wine today. It was more of a concentrated grape juice with its intoxicating properties basically removed. You cannotdefend wine-drinking today on the basis of wine-drinking in Bible times because the two are totally different.
Beer has approximately 4% alcohol, wine 9-11%, brandy 15-20%, and hard liquor 40-50% (80-100 proof) - I know these things as an ex-sailor. Mixed wine in biblical times was between 2.25-to-2.75%. By today's standards, a drink has to exceed 3.2% to be considered an alcoholic beverage. The wine that people in biblical times consumed was either completely non-alcoholic or sub-alcoholic by today's standards. To become drunk with wine in those days you would have to drink all day. That is why the Bible commands elders in the church not to be addicted to much wine (1 Timothy 3:3). With such a low alcoholic content, you would have to purpose to become drunk.
So, is drinking wine today the same as in Bible times? No!
In the NT, the Lord produced wine and spoke about drinking wine (John 2:1-11; Matthew 26:26-29). In the OT as in the New, wine was used out of necessity. This was in a day and age when all they had to drink apart from wine was fruit juice, milk, and water. Due to a lack of refrigeration, even wine mixed from the syrup base, if left standing long enough, could ferment. These people had little choice in deciding what to drink.
Today you can go to Walmart and the variety of non-alcoholic beverages is seemingly endless. Almost anywhere in the U.S. we have an almost unlimited access to running water. So drinking wine today would be considered a preference and not a necessity.
Beer has approximately 4% alcohol, wine 9-11%, brandy 15-20%, and hard liquor 40-50% (80-100 proof) - I know these things as an ex-sailor. Mixed wine in biblical times was between 2.25-to-2.75%. By today's standards, a drink has to exceed 3.2% to be considered an alcoholic beverage. The wine that people in biblical times consumed was either completely non-alcoholic or sub-alcoholic by today's standards. To become drunk with wine in those days you would have to drink all day. That is why the Bible commands elders in the church not to be addicted to much wine (1 Timothy 3:3). With such a low alcoholic content, you would have to purpose to become drunk.
So, is drinking wine today the same as in Bible times? No!
In the NT, the Lord produced wine and spoke about drinking wine (John 2:1-11; Matthew 26:26-29). In the OT as in the New, wine was used out of necessity. This was in a day and age when all they had to drink apart from wine was fruit juice, milk, and water. Due to a lack of refrigeration, even wine mixed from the syrup base, if left standing long enough, could ferment. These people had little choice in deciding what to drink.
Today you can go to Walmart and the variety of non-alcoholic beverages is seemingly endless. Almost anywhere in the U.S. we have an almost unlimited access to running water. So drinking wine today would be considered a preference and not a necessity.
Dunamis XX
New Member
A Christian drinking in moderation is not able to guarantee that his example will not cause a weaker Christian to try drinking and then become addicted. Not only that, but a former drunk who becomes a Christian will often associate many immoral and corrupt activities with drinking, and to see a fellow Christian drink, would most likely offend his conscience.
The apostle Paul laid out a general principle in 1 Corinthians 8:9 that can be applied in many different instances. He said, "Take heed, lest by any means this liberty of yours becomes a stumbling block to them that are weak." A believer may very well have the liberty, maturity, and strength to drink in moderation, but he might also set the wrong example for someone who cannot handle any type of drinking. Our freedom in Christ stops when it begins to harm others, especially fellow believers. In Paul's time, drunkenness was commonly associated with pagan religions. Those who came to Christ did not want to eat meat offered to idols (the context of 1 Corinthians 8) anymore than they wanted to be looked upon as drinkers.
In Romans 14:13-21, Paul gives a more specific principle that applies to the Christian's use of his liberty. Paul said not to let any "man put a stumbling block or an occasion to fall in his brother's way...if thy brother be grieved with thy food [or drink], now walkest thou not in love. Destroy not him with thy food [or drink], for whom Christ died. Let not then you good be evil spoken of" (vv.13, 15-16).
It might be OK to drink in moderation, but if it's going to offend others, it's better to abstain from it. You might go through your life adjusting to other people, but God can use that to mold you into the person He wants you to be.
