Drinking

[InTheLight]

Even a good scotch— single malt. That will. Put hair on your er chest as daddy used to say.

My Dad used to say that minced horseradish sauce would do that--and he was right!

 

[John of Japan]

Back to emotion.

Can't tell emotion from sarcasm, eh?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Can't tell emotion from sarcasm, eh?

LOL---Loosening up a little I see JJ!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

My Dad used to say that minced horseradish sauce would do that--and he was right!

OK.....but I'd prefer the Scotch....MacCallum 15 Yr. Horseradish sauce will blow a hole thru your sinuses. I put it on Burgers, Roast Beef Sandwiches & Nathans French-fries.

also, I prefer scotch with fig newtons.....you dunk them.

 

[John of Japan]

That is a good question. I hope you don’t mind if I take a stab at it.

(First the disclaimer: I don’t read Greek, just Strong’s & Thayer’s, so I ain’t no linguist.)

Those two can help the layman, but for professional work they are out of date, being written before the many papyri discoveries of the early 20th century.

It sort of depends on whether you are trying for ‘equivalent words’ or ‘equivalent thought’ as your primary goal. John 2:10 says “drunk” so that would be the more literal rendering. The issue is the intent of the meaning in the context that it is used. If you have ever drunk, then you will know that each drink further dulls your taste buds, so the ‘thought’ behind the statement about the quality of the wine is that most people serve the best flavored wine first and the cheaper wines after the guests have had their taste buds dulled by drinking. He is not attempting to express the thought that most of the guests are passing out as Jesus’ wine is being served.

My intent was to portray exactly what the governor of the feast said. I believe a good translator preserves ambiguity, so that is what my team tried to do.

Equivalence is a very tricky and controversial subject in translation studies. I favor "optimal equivalence" (NKJV & CSB), wherein we know that perfect equivalence is a linguistic impossibility, but we strive for the optimal rendering in the target language. As you may know, Eugene Nida's method called for a "dynamic" equivalence, in which the "dynamic" element was not tied down to a root meaning (see his Lexical Semantics of the Greek NT), but was "dynamic" in the sense that the target language (his word was "receptor") reader "received" the rendering in an existential way, hopefully just like the original reader.

Your decision is how to comminucate the message within the Japanese culture. Will they understand the idiomatic language if you say “drunk” to mean a general reference and not a specific description of this particular wedding? Will it taint the understanding of a wedding by that culture?

Good point. But Japanese get drunk at every party, including wedding receptions. They even have a sake drinking ceremony at a Shinto wedding.

Since you are a Linguist who reads Greek, is there anything in the story to suggest that “wine” doesn’t mean “wine” and the man is THAT impressed with Grape Juice?

From the historical evidence, I view the "wine" served in John 2 as possibly of several varieties: brand new undiluted grape juice, grape juice somewhat fermented (depending on the age), more highly fermented wine (thus the possible drunkenness), reconstituted grape juice (they had several ways of preserving it), etc.

Why would most people serve the good grape juice first and the cheap grape juice later? That really only makes sense with alcohol.

And why does it make sense only with alcohol? In Japan one company diluted their grape juice, and we could tell by the taste. What I have here in the US for breakfast every morning is pure, undiluted, delightful stuff. There are also different varieties of grape juice depending on the variety of grapes.

Here's an interesting website on that: Wine and Juice Grape Varieties

Also, do some research on Lucius Junius Moderatus Columella, a first century agriculturist who wrote on "wine" and preserving grape drinks.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

My grandmother drank scotch every night. Not sure why scotch. She was Norwegian, but don't know if it was an ethnic preference. But every night until she died at age 95.

Here is the thing....do you know the brand?

 

[Yeshua1]

Those two can help the layman, but for professional work they are out of date, being written before the many papyri discoveries of the early 20th century.

My intent was to portray exactly what the governor of the feast said. I believe a good translator preserves ambiguity, so that is what my team tried to do.

Equivalence is a very tricky and controversial subject in translation studies. I favor "optimal equivalence" (NKJV & CSB), wherein we know that perfect equivalence is a linguistic impossibility, but we strive for the optimal rendering in the target language. As you may know, Eugene Nida's method called for a "dynamic" equivalence, in which the "dynamic" element was not tied down to a root meaning (see his Lexical Semantics of the Greek NT), but was "dynamic" in the sense that the target language (his word was "receptor") reader "received" the rendering in an existential way, hopefully just like the original reader.

Good point. But Japanese get drunk at every party, including wedding receptions. They even have a sake drinking ceremony at a Shinto wedding.

From the historical evidence, I view the "wine" served in John 2 as possibly of several varieties: brand new undiluted grape juice, grape juice somewhat fermented (depending on the age), more highly fermented wine (thus the possible drunkenness), reconstituted grape juice (they had several ways of preserving it), etc.

And why does it make sense only with alcohol? In Japan one company diluted their grape juice, and we could tell by the taste. What I have here in the US for breakfast every morning is pure, undiluted, delightful stuff. There are also different varieties of grape juice depending on the variety of grapes.

Here's an interesting website on that: Wine and Juice Grape Varieties

Also, do some research on Lucius Junius Moderatus Columella, a first century agriculturist who wrote on "wine" and preserving grape drinks.

What would be the translation philosophy of the Nas then, as they seem to be striving to do what the Nkjv did, to maintain as much as possible a word for word meaning intent, and yet also allowing for more dynamic when the situations calls for it that fashion!

 

[Calminian]

Here is the thing....do you know the brand?

Not a clue. I'd have to investigate. But why is that the thing?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Not a clue. I'd have to investigate. But why is that the thing?

Only if you don't want to drink rot gut. My Great Grandfather drank a plum whisky
Slivovitz. Generally a shot before he would go to work (In the Mines) ....and its disgusting, and it burns & kicks & slaps you around. Think what ordeals he had to go through to have to drink that awful stuff to steady his nerves. Also he lived a long life but he also plowed fields with two teams of horses.

 

[OnlyaSinner]

Most sources admit that alcohol by itself is a poison. We saw a young housewife come to Christ in Japan who could not consume alcohol, because she would lose consciousness after only one beer!

In my understanding, alcohol itself doesn't have a taste to it. So the logical conclusion is that people drink it for what it does for them, for the buzz, not the taste. As the Bible says, give that stuff to someone who is dying. I dont' need it, since I have the Holy Spirit and His fruit!

For the record, I've tasted wine, and it smelled and tasted awful. It's an acquired taste. And beer is worse. i much prefer a good grape juice for the taste. I have a nice glass every morning, and delight in it.

When I was studying chemicals used in forestry, and their toxicity, one phrase offered was, "The dose makes the poison." We see it in one of the most commonly prescribed blood thinner meds, warfarin, which in much higher dose is employed as an effective rat poison. At the other extreme, I read some years ago that a person seeking a total internal "cleansing" drank so much water, many gallons/day, that the electrolyte balance became so out of whack that death by heart failure followed. I would not choose to base my abstinence on "alcohol is a poison" (my rationale was noted several pages upthread) even though the statement is factual.

 

[Calminian]

Only if you don't want to drink rot gut. My Great Grandfather drank a plum whisky (Slivavitz ?) Generally a shot before he would go to work (In the Mines) ....and its disgusting, and it burns & kicks & slaps you around. Think what ordeals he had to go through to have to drink that awful stuff to steady his nerves. Also he lived a long life but he also plowed fields with two teams of horses.

Very interesting. I know my grandmother didn't have the easiest life. I remember her chiding one of my great aunts for not knowing what a "kick in the head" was. My great aunt agreed, "no, I've had a pretty good life." Never knew what that was about, but have always been curious.

I may interrogate my dad a little on what exactly she drank, the brand, etc.

 

[John of Japan]

When I was studying chemicals used in forestry, and their toxicity, one phrase offered was, "The dose makes the poison." We see it in one of the most commonly prescribed blood thinner meds, warfarin, which in much higher dose is employed as an effective rat poison. At the other extreme, I read some years ago that a person seeking a total internal "cleansing" drank so much water, many gallons/day, that the electrolyte balance became so out of whack that death by heart failure followed. I would not choose to base my abstinence on "alcohol is a poison" (my rationale was noted several pages upthread) even though the statement is factual.

Thanks, that makes sense. Alcohol has long been used as a medicine, and I believe that's what Paul meant when he told Timothy to "take a little wine for thy stomach's sake." The alcohol would have killed bacteria, I suppose.

I'm not averse to alcohol for a cough medicine. There is nothing in the Bible that says that alcohol of some sort passing the lips is a sin. Once again, though, the purpose is what is important. If the purpose of drinking alcohol is a "buzz" of some sort, I say that the joy of the Holy Spirit in our hearts is much better. I don't have any need for alcohol, myself--don't want any "buzz!"

 

[John of Japan]

What would be the translation philosophy of the Nas then, as they seem to be striving to do what the Nkjv did, to maintain as much as possible a word for word meaning intent, and yet also allowing for more dynamic when the situations calls for it that fashion!

Not to derail the thread, but the NAS translation philosophy was too literal, IMO, so that it is well known for being wooden. Optimal equivalence looks for a good literary style in the target language.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Very interesting. I know my grandmother didn't have the easiest life. I remember her chiding one of my great aunts for not knowing what a "kick in the head" was. My great aunt agreed, "no, I've had a pretty good life." Never knew what that was about, but have always been curious.

I may interrogate my dad a little on what exactly she drank, the brand, etc.

Do you like Whisky? Its an acquired taste. I didn't like it when my father made me drink it warm with honey to put me to sleep. But I'm in my 60's now & can afford a belt once and a while like a single malt scotch. Or a beer with a burger...it makes the meat taste better. I got other preferred drinks but remember, I choose to drink & can put it down at any time & not look back. When you find yourself drinking for the wrong reasons then STOP cause it will destroy you & everything you love. And thats why they are so afraid of it. Just beware.

 

[Calminian]

Do you like Whisky? Its an acquired taste. I didn't like it when my father made me drink it warm with honey to put me to sleep. But I'm in my 60's now & can afford a belt once and a while like a single malt scotch. Or a beer with a burger...it makes the meat taste better. I got other preferred drinks but remember, I choose to drink & can put it down at any time & not look back. When you find yourself drinking for the wrong reasons then STOP cause it will destroy you & everything you love. And thats why they are so afraid of it. Just beware.

Not sure. Haven't drank for a good 25 years. But I probably drank more than my share before that. But I don't have any issues with those who do. It would be folly to think everyone was like me, and drinks to excess. I think drink is a blessing from God, just as coffee and other types of things. But with the blessing comes the possibility of over indulgence, especially in this Starbucks age. But the truth is, most don't, and that's the message I think the Church needs to get. We need to be very careful on this subject.

When the Church oversteps and assumes everyone is an abuser, we hurt our testimony and lose people. I've done that in the past, it was a mistake.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Even a good scotch— single malt. That will. Put hair on your er chest as daddy used to say.

Might it cause a weaker brother to stumble?

 

[Calminian]

Might it cause a weaker brother to stumble?

Absolutely. What I'm focusing on is the other side of the coin, equally important. Phariseeism is taking that extra step beyond the law and outlawing something that God deemed legal in moderation. Both licentiousness and legalism are harmful.

I really believe God meant wine to be a blessing. Fermentation is a natural process used to make many things, and if used in moderation is actually a blessing. I don't even have a problem with people drinking to be marry. They just need to avoid drunkenness, and I think the vast majority of people do. But many Churches go way beyond this, pushing abstinence, and undermining Scripture. That's my biggest concern. Have we just kind of outgrown Scripture and know better?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Might it cause a weaker brother to stumble?

Well there already probably gone then if they crave it that badly. Both my wife & my brother are recovering and before I would have a beer (usually with dinner) I'd ask them. I was always told that its not a problem. Today I don't really drink....just cause I just don't want to. My drink of choice today is seltzer with lime & a splash of OJ.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Not sure. Haven't drank for a good 25 years. But I probably drank more than my share before that. But I don't have any issues with those who do. It would be folly to think everyone was like me, and drinks to excess. I think drink is a blessing from God, just as coffee and other types of things. But with the blessing comes the possibility of over indulgence, especially in this Starbucks age. But the truth is, most don't, and that's the message I think the Church needs to get. We need to be very careful on this subject.

When the Church oversteps and assumes everyone is an abuser, we hurt our testimony and lose people. I've done that in the past, it was a mistake.

I'm glad you can admit it.

 

[Calminian]

I'm glad you can admit it.

The overindulgence or legalism? Sometimes we go from the pot to the frying pan.