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Dungeons and Dragons
- Thread starter evangelist6589
- Start date
Evangelist - seriously?
How many is "many"? If it's in Lutzer's book, you should be able to knock out an answer pretty quick, rather than tell someone else to read the book.
But I'll go one better for you: MOST of those people that Lutzer talks about in his 1980's book, that allegedly committed suicide or murder because of the influence of D&D - weren't influenced by D&D to do that. They played D&D, yes.
Paula Pulling, the most famous detractor of D&D, stating that it caused people to commit suicide -- made those claims because her son played D&D and committed suicide. She was never able to provide accepted empirical statistics that there was a causal relation. Further, her claims (after she formed BADD) were subsequently disproved by a reporter named Stackpole. In fact, the actual statistics showed that suicide among gamers is lower than with non-gamers. Further, recognizing that her claims were based around her beliefs instead of actual evidence, BADD effectively ceased to exist after her death in 1997.
In 1979, a 16-year boy disappeared in some tunnels beneath Michigan State University. A private investigator linked the disappearance to D&D. The press reported this as fact; and a fictionalized account called "Mazes & Monsters" was adapted into a movie starring Tom Hanks. Turns out, however, that the private investigator repudiated the story in 1984, stating that the disappearance had nothing to do with D&D; but was actually a result of the mother's domineering of the son, causing clinical depression and stress.
The American Association of Suicidology, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, and Health & Welfare (Canada) all concluded that there is no causal link between fantasy gaming and suicide. Researchers outside the context of BADD have investigated the emotional impact of Dungeons & Dragons since the 1980s. Studies have shown that depression and suicidal tendencies are not typically associated with role players. Feelings of alienation are not associated with mainstream players, though those who are deeply, and often financially, committed to the game do tend to have these feelings. According to one study there is "no significant correlation between years of playing the game and emotional stability."
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Anti-plagiarism statement: All the information above is easily found on the internet. I take no credit for having written the above; I used a Google search and conglomerated results from different sources.
So instead of shelling out money for a book, waiting for it to arrive, and then taking a couple of days to read it -- in the space of 30 minutes, I've completely refuted a main premise of the book.
God gives us a spirit of discernment for a reason. A healthy amount of skepticism is NOT a bad thing.
Further, if we follow the reasoning regarding D&D that's been presented in this thread: Then we need to burn all D&D books we find, burn every copy of the Tolkien books and the Lewis books; destroy any/all video games that have anything to do with monsters; stop watching Twilight Zone because of it's "science over religion" themes (they're morality plays, not based on scripture); posters, movies, etc., etc., etc.
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Evangelist. I hope against hope that the gravity of what I am saying will come through in this post, despite the obvious absurdities that reveal how great is your error:
YOU ARE FALSELY ACCUSING YOUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN CHRIST OF SIN...
...for watching Ghostbusters...while yourself watch Twilight Zone and Star trek, which contains repeated adultery and by your own admission...satanism.
...for Playing a board game that contains all of the same elements as LOTR, a Recognized masterpiece of Christian Fiction.
Since you love reading, and I think you mentioned having Grudem's Systematic Theology...Go re-read the chapter on the sufficiency of scripture. Here's some excerpts:
"Nothing is sin that is not forbidden in scripture either explicitly or implicitly."
"Whenever we add to the list of sins that scripture actually speaks to, there will be harm to the church and to the lives of individual believers."
***There is a difference between saying, "I don't believe I should do ________ because it may cause me to stumble, or makes me uncomfortable, or I'm not sure about it and want to be careful." and saying "All Christians everywhere must not do _____________, because it is always a sin."
You cannot say the second without clear scriptural warrant. When you do you cause false guilt to those who try to follow the man-made rule, but have trouble doing so...and false confidence & superiority for those who succeed.
Please re-consider they way you speak about your fellow believers.
-Andy
PreachTony
Active Member
:thumbsup:
I disagree. Speaking of Star Trek from the 1960's I have every episode and can't find. Single instance of sex. Kirk did have girlfriends but he did not have sex with any of them. Regarding Twilight Zone Henry Bemis was a incompetent Bank Teller whom did not know how to stand up for himself nor focus on his job duties and nearly got fired. His wife dominated him due to his personality weakness and incompetence and she was a strong woman. No this relationship was not healthy, but no immorality, alcohol, or drugs was in it.
Twilight Zone is pretty clean as far as morality goes. Can't say it's perfect and yes some bad theology which came from a Christian Science worldview, but then again some speculation on Hell.
For example one man has a Hell in which he has to experience death from the horror of those he killed for all eternity. While this is all speculation and we do not know this, but I would say that episode hit hard on how wrong it is to do such things and that HELL awaits those whom continue this way. No not perfect theology, but morality wise good.
So the lesson learned. If you were a German that gassed Jews, perhaps when you go to Hell for all eternity you will experience the gas chamber and continue to die and die and die for all time.
Twilight Zone is pretty clean as far as morality goes. Can't say it's perfect and yes some bad theology which came from a Christian Science worldview, but then again some speculation on Hell.
For example one man has a Hell in which he has to experience death from the horror of those he killed for all eternity. While this is all speculation and we do not know this, but I would say that episode hit hard on how wrong it is to do such things and that HELL awaits those whom continue this way. No not perfect theology, but morality wise good.
So the lesson learned. If you were a German that gassed Jews, perhaps when you go to Hell for all eternity you will experience the gas chamber and continue to die and die and die for all time.
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Most of us probably don't need to read the book. You are too young to have lived (as a teenager) through the hysteria of the church regarding “Satan’s attack” through music and other media of the 80’s. I sat through countess youth programs against D&D (does anyone even play D&D anymore?) and listened how a Queen song played backwards said “It’s fun to smoke marijuana” (never mind that it might be fun to smoke marijuana). Anyway, the overall result was than when many of us became adults and discovered the falseness of many of these claims we distanced ourselves from the church. What they were doing, in effect, was not setting themselves apart to God but distancing themselves from God’s children by pushing fellow believers away.
The principle of discernment and standing as a light in a dark world was commendable (and biblical). But the cultic devotion that resulted created a downward spiral that degraded the gospel message and distracted the church from its mission. Their “light” was not that of the gospel, but it was an extraordinarily self-centered light…it was “me-centered” doctrine. Now, I have never played D&D (and I’ve never tried pot…if you’re wondering), but there are many instances where churches have stood upon weak foundations and caused damage to their witness and brethren. If you care to look down, I believe you will find yourself on such a foundation.
Seriously? You use one of the morality plays from Twilight Zone to somehow justify that it's okay?
You're using the same tactic that you want to believe others are using about D&D!!!
Not a single acknowledgement of what I posted refuting Lutzer's premise. Only more defense of what you personally want to believe.
You are too easily influenced by the books you read, Evangelist. You need to learn to think critically for yourself. (and let me predict: the response to this will be either "go chase a rabbit" or some defense of how he actually is a critical thinker)
Where's the emoticon for "disappointed"?
In 1998, I worked for Air Force Space Command. We had some preachers come through our church who were writing books about the Y2K bug, and thundering from the pulpits about how nuclear missiles were going to launch themselves. The first time I heard that, I laughed out loud in the church service. I managed to control myself the next time or two, and just tuned it out after that.
Where are those guys now?
Think Lutzer will ever acknowledge that he used disproven stories in his condemnation of D&D?
The original Star Trek presented an extremely atheistic worldview. The assumption was “God is dead" or would be in the future - but it is a show of its times. And I cannot believe that you are honestly saying that there were no sexual situations in Star Trek (x-rated...now pg-13 rated... sex scenes…of course not, given that era). But Kirk was far from a choir boy.
BTW. that Henry Bemis episode was my favorite Twilight Zone.
I doubt it. And Lutzer certainly didn't board that train alone....it all sort of died out. It was foolishness (good intentions, but unbiblical foolishness). As it snowballed I think that people started to realize just how far from the gospel they were venturing. Thankfully Evangelist6589 is just rekindling thoughts of a time past and this is not a trend hitting the church again. The biggest problem with the situation was not pointing out potential social ills. It was that many (if not most) of the claims at that time proved false. No one ever stood up and said "we made a mistake." As an example, it may be difficult to take Evangelist6589 seriously on other issues if they know his stance here is false? It was a lapse in discernment in the 80's...it is a lapse now.
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Oh boy. Really?
Check out the episode "Wink of an Eye". Kirk enters his quarters with a woman. They begin kissing next to a bed. Next scene we see Kirk sitting on the edge of the bed pulling his boot on. Gee, I wonder what happened in between?
Bread and Circuses. Kirk is a prisoner on a planet with a society much like the Roman empire. He is to be executed the next morning but his captors decide to allow him to "live like a man for a few hours more" and provide him a girl for the night. They show Kirk drinking wine with the girl, camera pans to an oil lamp that has a full flame. Next scene the oil lamp is out and Kirk is getting out of bed alone.
There are more.
If you can't figure out that Kirk was having sex in these episodes, which you've seen over and over again, well, I guess it's no wonder you think D&D, a game you've never played, is "satanic".
[Still waiting on a definition of "satanic", BTW.]
Maybe I missed something. Can you name an episode of the original series (it's the only Trek I watch) and I will take another look at it. It is possible I overlooked something. Thank you.
The Bible is spoken well of in various episodes and one character mentions Christ by name in a positive light in one episode. I can't think of the name. No they were not believers but the show is not an attack on God.
Really? Ask anyone at Bob Jones University any author or professor of theology or the Bible and they will agree with me. Even Jordan thinks the same.
I have seen those episodes and plan to watch them again to verify. Bread and Circuses probably my fav but Wink of an eye very good as well.
But also remember Kirk was not a believer in Christ so he acts on his fleshly nature.
Bread and Circuses is the only ST TOS episode that I know of that speaks favorably of Jesus. Kirk thinks the people of the planet "worship the sun", but at the end of the story he realizes that they really "worship the son, the Son of God."
Yes, and remember, like Ghostbusters, that it's a fictional story.
[Still waiting on a definition of "satanic", BTW.]
So if you like the show then you can ignore the worldly nature of it, while condeming anyone that plays a 'worldly' game you don't like. Ok that make sense :BangHead: You have set yourself up, or more accuratly whatever book you are reading for the week as judge and jury of any said activity that you don't like. If you like it then the book or others must be wrong. Am I reading things correctly?