Each Eschatological view.

[37818]

I leaned HP for a time, but places like John 5:28-29 and Matthew 25:31-46 clearly teach both sheep and goats stand before Him in a general resurrection, not two separated by a 1,000 years. That’s why I could never fully invest myself in that eschatology system. I’m leaning post-mill now, but there’s much to learn…much to learn.

I do not see a difficulty. Compare 2 Peter 3:8-13 in regards to Revelation 20 - Revelation 21. Same type of issues. Seeing it from a far versus seeing the details.

 

[37818]

In Matthew 24:30, Jesus says that the sign of the Son of Man shall appear - not that the Son of Man will literally appear. From Acts 1, we know that Jesus will physically return in the same manner that He left - in a cloud. I don't see any problem.

Matthew 24:30, ". . . they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds . . . ."

 

[robycop3]

You will not find Jesus changing course in that sermon. Even after vss 29-31, He said ”Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.”[Matthew 24:34]

Look at Ezekiel 5. I read that last evening, btw. Ezekiel shaves his beard and divides it. He then shows Jerusalem’s impending desolation by using that divided beard. It was to happen soon, not millennia later.

Fast forward to Matthew 24 and the Olivet Discourse. He is telling them, “this generation” not a “this generation” millennia later, of their impending doom, which happened in AD 70. It would be fruitless to tell them of a doom happening millennia later. It would be like God showing me your place where you live at(He doesn’t do this, but I’m proving my point here) and that 3,000 years later it’s nuked. I then warn you of that happening. Why warn about this when you’ll be long gone? Same with the Olivet Discourse. He was telling them, “this generation” about the impending doom to occur in AD 70.

Sure, J & the temple were soon destroyed, but the rest hasn't yet happened.

 

[robycop3]

Then why didn't Jesus say "that generation", or "the generation that is alive at that time", or something like that?

You'll hafta ask Jesus.

Also, please closely check out the meanings of the Greek "genea". It can also mean 'a people' Jesus could've meant that the Jewish people wouldn't pass away. After all, the prophesied eschatological events haven't yet occurred.

 

[1689Dave]

I do not see a difficulty. Compare 2 Peter 3:8-13 in regards to Revelation 20 - Revelation 21. Same type of issues. Seeing it from a far versus seeing the details.

If you spend time on what Jesus taught, Amillennialism tweaked with Baptist church polity is the only valid position.

 

[37818]

As a fundamentalist Baptist, premillennial second coming of Christ was in both churches that when I had joined, in their statement of faith.

 

[Iconoclast]

Matthew 24:30, ". . . they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds . . . ."

you ignore what was posted...you leave out the SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN IN HEAVEN.

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning
This thread will be closed no sooner than 630 pm EST / 330 pm PST

just bumping

 

[37818]

you ignore what was posted...you leave out the SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN IN HEAVEN.

No. I do not agree with the denial of what I quoted in Matthew 24:30. The actual event is the sign.

 

[Lodic]

Matthew 24:30, ". . . they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds . . . ."

"They" refers to those 1st century believers. Consider what Jesus told His disciples in Matthew 16:27-28 "Some of you standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom". Some argue that this refers to the Transfiguration, but that was only a few days away. None of them would have died. Others argue this refers to the far distant future when all of them would have died. Neither of these arguments make sense. Forty years after He spoke this prophecy, some had died, and some were still living when they saw (understood) that Jesus came in judgment on Jerusalem in AD 70.

 

[Lodic]

You'll hafta ask Jesus.

Also, please closely check out the meanings of the Greek "genea". It can also mean 'a people' Jesus could've meant that the Jewish people wouldn't pass away. After all, the prophesied eschatological events haven't yet occurred.

Then we would also need to ask Him why ALL the other times He used the phrase "this generation", He meant just what it normally means - the people He was speaking to, not a future generation. The "genea" argument doesn't wash either. Again, it didn't mean "race" in Matthew 11:16, Matthew 12:41-45, Matthew 22:36, or anywhere else. There are those who insist upon a "literal" translation - until the literal translation trips up their views. Words can't mean what they never meant.

 

[robycop3]

Then we would also need to ask Him why ALL the other times He used the phrase "this generation", He meant just what it normally means - the people He was speaking to, not a future generation. The "genea" argument doesn't wash either. Again, it didn't mean "race" in Matthew 11:16, Matthew 12:41-45, Matthew 22:36, or anywhere else. There are those who insist upon a "literal" translation - until the literal translation trips up their views. Words can't mean what they never meant.

But the fact still remains that the prophesied eschatological events did NOT happen in that generation. Nothing can get you past that ig ole bear of a FACT.

 

[37818]

Some Scriptures are clear. Hebrews 9:12, 1 Corinthians 15:52, Hebrews 9:28, 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and Revelation 20:6. To list a few.
A once and for all.
The last trumpet.
The second appearing.
For ever being with the Lord.
The first resurrection.

Arguing that I am wrong does not show me so. If I cannot reconcile what I know to be true with your claims, I am going to believe what I know.

 

[Lodic]

But the fact still remains that the prophesied eschatological events did NOT happen in that generation. Nothing can get you past that ig ole bear of a FACT.

Actually, you cannot overcome the fact that Jesus said - and meant - "this generation", not some future generation. The only options are 1) Jesus lied; 2) Jesus was mistaken; or 3) those events did happen just as He said they would.

 

[37818]

The more I have studied this, the more I understand how the post trib pre wrath view is true.

 

[Lodic]

Some Scriptures are clear. Hebrews 9:12, 1 Corinthians 15:52, Hebrews 9:28, 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and Revelation 20:6. To list a few.
A once and for all.
The last trumpet.
The second appearing.
For ever being with the Lord.
The first resurrection.

Arguing that I am wrong does not show me so. If I cannot reconcile what I know to be true with your claims, I am going to believe what I know.

I don't disagree with you on most of those passages. I also look forward to Christ's 2nd Coming. I still believe the 1,000 years of Revelation 20:6 to be symbolic. I believe 1 Thessalonians 4:17 points to our resurrection, not to a rapture (which I do not believe in). Clearly, there are many things we will not know this side of Heaven.

 

[37818]

1 Thessalonians 4:17, ". . . shall be caught up . . . ." The Greek αρπαγησομεθα to the Latin with a transliteration to English for our word "rapture."

 

[37818]

Matthew 24:33, ". . . So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, . . ." Referring to what is seen in Matthew 24:29, as I understand the context. So either "this generation" refers to those who see those things as I understand it as a yet future, or it is a failed prophecy, which neither of us believe. And I, at this time yet find the Preterist views untenable.

 

[Lodic]

1 Thessalonians 4:17, ". . . shall be caught up . . . ." The Greek αρπαγησομεθα to the Latin with a transliteration to English for our word "rapture."

Yes, I know that is where we get the word "rapture" from, but I disagree with the "rapture" doctrine. Traditionally, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 has been interpreted to refer to the General Resurrection and the 2nd Coming. Verse 17 tells us that after the dead are resurrected, those who are alive, will from that time forward get to be with Jesus and the resurrected forever. At Jesus’ “coming” or “appearing,” those who are still alive will be “changed” or “transformed” so that their mortal bodies will become incorruptible, deathless. This is all that Paul intends to say here.

 

[37818]

"They" refers to those 1st century believers. Consider what Jesus told His disciples in Matthew 16:27-28 "Some of you standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom". Some argue that this refers to the Transfiguration, but that was only a few days away. None of them would have died. Others argue this refers to the far distant future when all of them would have died. Neither of these arguments make sense. Forty years after He spoke this prophecy, some had died, and some were still living when they saw (understood) that Jesus came in judgment on Jerusalem in AD 70.

We disagree. Again I am of the persuasion only what Jesus said in Matthew 24:1-2 refers to 70AD. What Jesus answered His disciples in Matthew ,24 was about His second appearing. Hebrews 9:28. Not 70AD.