If He cannot speak, how can He be God?
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Easter in Tyndale's Bible Before KJV
- Thread starter Hark
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Hark
Well-Known Member
Obviously, you are angry & hardly ministering as per 2 Timothy 2:24-26 instructs.
As far as the Athanatian Creed, I know nothing about it yet to say one way or another in how they address the Trinity doctrine. If there is a thread to it, feel free to leave a link in a reply to me.
I had forgotten your response from our last discussion. You did say this: from this thread at this link below;
The Supposed Errors in the KJV
"Romans 8:26 says that when we cannot pray to God, the Spirit groans the prayers of our heart for us.
John 16:13 says that the Spirit speaks to us the things that he hears (from God is implied).
The verses do not contradict, they fit perfectly together like pieces in a puzzle: us to the Spirit to the Father & Son; the Father & Son to the Spirit to us.?"
And another post;
"You are splitting a semantic hair WAY too fine for my taste (can the unspoken, wordless groanings of the Holy Spirit be heard?)
However, NONE of those verses support a private "tongues language", so on that point we are in complete agreement (and I am a continuationist rather than a cessationist, but what people CALL tongues isn't what the Bible calls tongues.)"
For some reason I had the wrong recollection that you did not believe anyone would use that reference for tongues to be used in private use. & did not believe groanings can be heard, but @robycop3 "seems" to be saying he reads it as such.
But the first post from that other thread seems to suggest you do think the Spirit groans for us in prayers and yet He speaks only what He hears as implied whereby the second & last post in that thread seem to suggest that you did not think groans can be heard. No wonder my recollection of you is wrong when clarification was needed.
It is evident that nether you nor robycop3 seem to see that there is an opposition in scripture. I leave you both to God then.
Just a heads up for roby.....the word is enthralled.....not in thralled. You're welcome.
Does the Holy Spirit have words and thoughts of his own, or just whatever Jesus has period?
Hark
Well-Known Member
He does not speak from Himself, but speaks what He hears only. John 16:13
He has thoughts for how He makes intercessions for us, indirectly because His intercessions are silent as Jesus knows the mind of the Spirit to give His silent intercessions for Him to the Father. Romans 8:26-27
Has this debate ever covered the fundamental source and the etymology of the words related to this issue?
My understanding is :
1) Paska has been translated as Passover all the time except Acts 12:4
2) The problem is that it was already the Days of the Unleavened Bread, and that Passover is the first day of the Feast of DUB. So if we translate Paska as Passover here in Acts 12:4, then it sounds like contradictory because it was already Days of Unleavened Bread and Passover is one day before DUB. ( or the first day of DUB if we count Passover is included in DUB as it is the first day of the DUB)
3) BDB Hebrew Lexicon, Thayer Greek Lexicon tell us :
Chaldean : Pischa, Hebrew Pesach, Assyrians : Pasahu.
These were all represented by Paska
I understand there were several specialists in Chaldean language among KJV translators.
Paska usually meant A) Passover Sacrifice, B) Passover Festival C) Passover Lamb D) The whole period of Passover thru Days of Un-Leavened Bread.
Can we imagine that the pagan kings remembered and celebrated Passover Feast since the time of Judges except King Josiah
2 Kings 23:
22 Surely there was not holden such a passover from the days of the judges that judged Israel, nor in all the days of the kings of Israel, nor of the kings of Judah;
23 But in the eighteenth year of king Josiah, wherein this passover was holden to the Lord in Jerusalem.
Few Israeli Kings celebrated Passover but pagan King Herod was a devout for LORD and celebrated and kept Passover and Days of Un Leavened Bread? I strongly doubt.
4) I know Easter is connected with Ostara in Germany. But I have no doubt it is from Ishtar the name of goddess in Babylon. So, Easter is not the biblical name for Passover or Pesach.
Easter is definitely connected with goddess Ishtar and Babylonian religion.
Actually Easter is often different from Passover and it doesn't represent the day of the Resurrection of Jesus. For example, in this year 2021, we have Passover on March 27 and Easter is 4th April. Jesus was crucified on Passover, then He was resurrected after 8 days?
Easter is the Day of Resurrection of Tamuz, son of goddess Ishtar!, after 40 days of LENT.
Ezekiel 8:14 explains about this practice.
I wouldn't conclude Acts 12:4 should have Easter instead of Passover definitely as I don't have much further evidences but understand there are lots of monumental discoveries about the pagan festivals for goddess Ishtar in the Middle Eastern region, worshipping Astarte, Ishtar, Ostara, Asherah, and the festival was after the Spring Equinox, after the first full moon, on the day of Sun.
We cannot reach the conclusion without the full understanding about these fundamental issues.
Eliyahu
My understanding is :
1) Paska has been translated as Passover all the time except Acts 12:4
2) The problem is that it was already the Days of the Unleavened Bread, and that Passover is the first day of the Feast of DUB. So if we translate Paska as Passover here in Acts 12:4, then it sounds like contradictory because it was already Days of Unleavened Bread and Passover is one day before DUB. ( or the first day of DUB if we count Passover is included in DUB as it is the first day of the DUB)
3) BDB Hebrew Lexicon, Thayer Greek Lexicon tell us :
Chaldean : Pischa, Hebrew Pesach, Assyrians : Pasahu.
These were all represented by Paska
I understand there were several specialists in Chaldean language among KJV translators.
Paska usually meant A) Passover Sacrifice, B) Passover Festival C) Passover Lamb D) The whole period of Passover thru Days of Un-Leavened Bread.
Can we imagine that the pagan kings remembered and celebrated Passover Feast since the time of Judges except King Josiah
2 Kings 23:
22 Surely there was not holden such a passover from the days of the judges that judged Israel, nor in all the days of the kings of Israel, nor of the kings of Judah;
23 But in the eighteenth year of king Josiah, wherein this passover was holden to the Lord in Jerusalem.
Few Israeli Kings celebrated Passover but pagan King Herod was a devout for LORD and celebrated and kept Passover and Days of Un Leavened Bread? I strongly doubt.
4) I know Easter is connected with Ostara in Germany. But I have no doubt it is from Ishtar the name of goddess in Babylon. So, Easter is not the biblical name for Passover or Pesach.
Easter is definitely connected with goddess Ishtar and Babylonian religion.
Actually Easter is often different from Passover and it doesn't represent the day of the Resurrection of Jesus. For example, in this year 2021, we have Passover on March 27 and Easter is 4th April. Jesus was crucified on Passover, then He was resurrected after 8 days?
Easter is the Day of Resurrection of Tamuz, son of goddess Ishtar!, after 40 days of LENT.
Ezekiel 8:14 explains about this practice.
I wouldn't conclude Acts 12:4 should have Easter instead of Passover definitely as I don't have much further evidences but understand there are lots of monumental discoveries about the pagan festivals for goddess Ishtar in the Middle Eastern region, worshipping Astarte, Ishtar, Ostara, Asherah, and the festival was after the Spring Equinox, after the first full moon, on the day of Sun.
We cannot reach the conclusion without the full understanding about these fundamental issues.
Eliyahu
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The passage does not say that Herod was the one who was observing pascha.
The immediate context of Acts 12:4 demonstrated that king Herod was aware that his earlier action of vexing certain of the church “pleased the Jews” (Acts 12:3). The context also revealed that Herod “proceeded further” to take another action that he thought would please the Jews. Would Herod be continuing to please the Jews if he supposedly waited to observe a pagan holiday or festival? Would the celebrations and practices associated with a pagan festival please or offend the Jews? Does the context actually maintain that Herod in proceeding further to take Peter would then do something contradictory to this action intended to please the Jews? It was actually Luke that used the Greek word pascha for the time for which Herod was waiting since this verse gives no indication that Herod was being directly quoted. The Bible verse or context does not directly say that Herod was keeping or observing pascha. “The people” of Acts 12:4 could be referring to or would be including the Jews mentioned in verse 3. In Acts 12:11, it refers to “the expectation of the people of the Jews.” Therefore according to the context, the Jews were clearly the people that Herod wanted to please again by his further action. Therefore, nothing in the verse and context proves that Herod could not have been waiting for the Jews to finish keeping their pascha so that he could bring Peter forth and please the Jews again. In other words, the context indicates that Herod did not want to risk displeasing the Jews by executing Peter during their Jewish pascha and may not indicate whether Herod personally had any scruples or principles against executing Peter during a festival. Herod also would have no reason to seek to displease the Jews and to honor and respect the church that he was vexing by waiting until after any claimed church celebration. Therefore, the clear evidence from the context clearly supports the understanding that the Jews would be the ones keeping the pascha [also called the feast of unleavened bread in Luke 22:1] instead of the assertion that Herod had to be the one keeping it. If Herod was also keeping it, the context indicates that it was the Jewish pascha that he would be keeping and not some pagan festival nor any Christian celebration.
In his commentary on Acts, Paton Gloag asserted that the Herod of Acts 12 “was strict in the observance of the Mosaic law” (I, p. 415). Gloag added: “According to the strict Jews, it was not reckoned lawful to defile their festal days with executions, and Herod Agrippa prided himself on being a strict observer of the law” (I, p. 416). In his commentary on Acts, William Humphrey reported that Josephus maintained that this Herod was “strongly attached to the Jewish law” (p. 100). In his commentary, Livermore maintained that “Herod forbore to execute Peter during the feast of Passover, out of regard to the custom of the Jews” (p. 177). In his 1645 commentary on Acts, John Lightfoot (1602-1675) noted: “Agrippa, having laid hold upon him, deferred his execution till after the Passover” (p. 322). Likewise, the 1645 Westminster Annotations have this note on “the days of unleavened bread” at Acts 12:4: “These words intimate the cause why he deferred Peter’s execution, for reverence of the Passover, which lasted eight days.” In the 1695 second edition of his Paraphrase on the New Testament, Richard Baxter has this note on Acts 12:4: “He set sixteen soldiers to keep him, that after the Passover he might sacrifice him to the people.”
Moved by the Holy Spirit, Luke could definitely have used the Greek word in the same sense as he did in Luke 22:1. Comparing Scripture with Scripture, the context of Acts 12:3-4 is in agreement with the understanding that this Greek word was used in the same sense as in Luke 22:1.
Hark
Well-Known Member
Not all the time. Paska was left untranslated until Tyndale's bible in English & before him, Martin Luther's bible in German as they lived in the same time period.
Tyndale's Bible at this link to view Luke 22nd chapter where ester in first verse is Easter & esterlambe in 7th verse to refer to the sacrifice at what we know now as Passover.
Luke 22 - TYN Bible - Bible Study Tools
So Easter in the N.T. back then was the Passover in the O.T. Just because as time went on, Bibles were using Passover more in the N.T. did not mean that the Jewish festivity was never known as Easter back then. This usage has been forgotten then for modern usage today but not back in the days of the KJV.
Thank you for sharing but as some KJV sites would use that explanation of Herod being a pagan & celebrating pagan Easter for why the day of Passover could not be after the 7 days of unleavened bread when in fact, the 8 days of unleavened can also be attributed as the Passover, per Luke 22:1 , it falls flat. It is a reasoning borne out of assumptions when trying to justify why the KJV had it as Easter in Acts 12:4
Regardless of why Easter is there per KJV, Easter was there in Tyndale's Bible in English & Martin Luther's Bible in German. Easter is Passover back then because they had Easterlamb in Luke 22:7 as that can only refer to the Jewish festivity that we have now come to know only as Passover.
It is because today we separate Easter from the Passover that anti-KJVers see it as a goof in the KJV, when they are just forgetting what time has forgotten but not in the days of the KJV because back then Easter had the same definition & reference for why it is the same as Passover today.
We don't know what a groan of the HOLY SPIRIT is. While we know some things grieve Him, I believe it's common sense He's not groaning in agony.
Clearly, He CAN speak. He often directed Paul where to go next to preach, or where not to go. And what does He hear as the truth? All the words of Scripture.
As for tongues, Paul plainly set forth in 1 Cor. 12, 13, & 14 the rules for speaking in unknown tongues. There must be an interpreter present, also empowered by the Holy Spirit; otherwise the tongue-speaker is to remain silent, and he must speak in order, giving the interpreter the chance to interpret what was spoken so far. The speaker has control over the tongue, so that he may thus divide his speech so the interpreter can act. Just mumbling a bunch of gibberish as is done in some "churches" is a sham. While there may be more than one actual tongue-speaker present in a given service, each must wait his turn to speak, & each must have an interpreter present. Paul gave those rules in accordance to the HOLY SPIRIT'S instructions to him.
Again, you're grasping for straws to try to justify your false KJVO myth. I explained the "are saved/are being saved" thingie once & I'm not gonna repeat myself. I leave it to each reader to judge which of us is correct.
What makes your explanation look bad is the fact that the KJV renders pascha as passover 28 out of the 29 times it appears in the NT Greek. There's simply no reason to have rendered it Easter that one time.
Hark
Well-Known Member
But your Bible versions have Him expressing those groans whereas the KJV & other modern Bibles have Him as making intercessions with groanings that cannot be uttered; hence the groan is not being uttered or heard.
So that is the distinction here for you to discern which one is not the truth from what is the truth.
Can the Holy Spirit utter out loud His groans or not?
Scripture that came from Jesus Christ for why the Holy Spirit brings into remembrance all Jesus has said to us. John 14:26
The Holy Spirit IS the Spirit of Christ & therefore the words of the Holy Spirit are NOT coming from Himself as the Holy Spirit's own words, but the words of Christ per John 16:13-15
I thank Jesus Christ that you are confirming the truth in His words about the real God's gift of tongues as opposing the world's tongue where that supernatural tongue is just gibberish nonsense as it can be found in the world's religions, & idolatries & the occult ( Isaiah 8:19 ) & cults in Christianity.
What you are not seeing is how cults in Christianity are connecting gibberish nonsense to the Holy Spirit praying by verbally uttering His groanings which is their assumption and not the truth, but some modern Bibles DO tetsify His groanings as being done out loud as this site testify in error as well.
Groaning Prayers, the Holy Spirit's Prayer, Romans 8
Romans 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. NIV
So in the plainness of the language in the NIV, wordless groans is being uttered. It cannot be read any other way for why many modern day tongue speakers see Romans 8:26 in that Bible version as supporting tongues for prayer language but it is opposing the truth in His words in John 16:13 of what all Bibles say that He cannot speak for Himself nor utter His own groanings from Himself but speak what He hears.
Like it or not, not all Bibles are aligning the truth in His words in John 16:13 to be found in Romans 8:26 in that Bible version, but the ones that confirms that not even His groanings can be uttered or heard, is keeping the truth in that Bible version.
Until you address that which opposes your application when Paul was referring to himself along with already saved believers by stating "us", you are in error for applying this to those being saved daily in the churches.
1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. KJV
So Paul is not referring to those being saved daily in the churches since he is not being saved daily in the churches.
So are you saying that Paul is not saved yet? Because that is what the NIV is saying of you continue to apply that verse to mean.
1 Corinthians 1: 18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. NIV
There are 2 different messages among all the Bible versions. There is no way they are saying the same thing.
He spoke for Himself all the way thru Acts!
Your post is good in connecting Herod’s delay of the Execution to Pleasing the Jews, instead of his celebration of Passover or pagan festival.
On the other hand, there are Undeniable Facts:
1) The verses mentioned Days of Unleavened Bread already but it doesn’t say Herod wanted to execute Peter after DUB, but after Paska
2) Passover comes before DUB, but the verse 3 says it was already DUB
3) End of the DUB is not Passover.
4) It was Herod who intended the execution after Paska, not the Jews. Herod intended to delay the execution.
5) Whether or not Herod celebrated Paska, Herod didn’t want to disturb the Festival of Paska
6) Why doesn’t it say : Herod intended the execution after the Days of Unleavened Bread which was mentioned in the previous verse already?
If it is because Paska or Passover can represent the whole period of the Feast, why wasn’t it used in the previous verse? Because DUB was already used.
7) I don’t think Herod was entirely neutral about the festival and I can easily imagine the ruling class of the Middle Eastern Countries celebrated the pagan festival Ishtar because,
There are so many articles, historical remains, monuments about Astarte, Asherah, Ishtar, Ostara, even Artemis in Acts 19:27-28 as the whole world celebrate the Easter, the pagan festival. This is why Jews didn’t have to necessarily celebrate Easter, but we can imagine the mixture of Jewish DUB and pagan Eastar
8) Which word in Greek were the pagan Festivals Ishtar, Astarte translated into ? All those pagan festivals were translated into Paska, I believe. In other words, Paska didn’t mean only Passover, but Pasahu, Pischa, eventually Easter.
What you couldn’t say is about the Jewish customs or the social situations at that time, because Sadducees often celebrated the different calendars of Pentecost, and majority of the Middle Eastern people would have celebrated Easter as Chaldeans celebrated Pischa, Assyrians Pasahu, Lebanese Astarte, even Israelites worshipped Asherah, and the day of the celebration would have been the first Day of Sun, after the Full Moon and after Spring Equinox.
Even today, I notice Jews don’t know the meaning of Pesach.
What about Christians?
They celebrate Easter! Not Passover! Not the Day of Resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ!, but the Day of Resurrection of Tamuz! ( Ezekiel 8:14)
This is why in this year, we have the Easter on April 4, 2021, 8 days after Passover on March 26-27.
Jesus would have been resurrected on March 30, 2021 if He had been crucified on March 27
However, we have Easter on April 4 this year, which has nothing to do with Resurrection of Jesus.
Because the whole world overwhelmingly celebrate Ishtar ( Name of Goddess in Babylon!)
Sadducees calculated Omer only from the next day after the regular Sabbath after Passover, resulting in their Pentecost on Sunday all the time.
What about the Christians today? They believe Pentecost is always Sunday!
Because they count 50 days from the regular Sabbath after Passover.
That’s Sadducee’s calculation.
But the true Pentecost can be any day of the week counted from the next day of the High Sabbath of DUB.
What I am saying here is that the whole world has been full of paganism either at the time of Acts 12:4 or even today.
Pasahu or Ishtar or Easter must have been a huge festival especially in the whole Middle Eastern Region,
and the Easter was quite similar to the End of the DUB ( Days of Unleavened Bread) deceiving even the People of Israel.
Both Easter and Pentecost are all the time Sundays! Celebrating the Holy Day of the Invincible Sun!
The Truth is that Day of Resurrection of our Lord Jesus can be any day of the week after Passover, and Pentecost can be any day of the week counted from the High Sabbath of the DUB.
KJV translators could have raised the questions about this issue because of the contradictions mentioned above, and left Paska as Easter distinguished from other Paska’ translated into Passovers.
I don’t trust any human exegesis over the Bible. John Lightfoot may be a famous scholar, but I remember he interpreted Ignatius’ Letter to Magnesians in the wrong way about the Sabbath. He may be based on Anglican theology or Catholicism.
I often noticed wrong translations of the bibles by many famous Christians, in terms of Clergy System, Catholicism, Mosaic Law, Revelation and Eschatology, etc.
So, your introduction of many famous people means nothing for me, though I rely on the dictionaries and lexicons.
Eliyahu
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Hark
Well-Known Member
It only looks bad to you and to everyone else that see Easter as a goof in how we use Easter today, but not back then in the days of the KJV translators.. You guys are not understanding how Easter was used back then to also mean. It was as time went by in history that Bible versions prefer to use Passover in both all of the N.T. & O.T. including the 1599 Geneva Bible.
How it got switched back to Easter only for Acts 12:4 in the KJV, it does not escape the fact that those in that KJV time period understood that to be the Jewish festivity to be known only as the Passover now.
That means regardless of how the RC separated Easter Sunday from the Jewish festivity of the Passover around the 8th century on up, when Passover was first translated in English in Tyndale's Bible, & in German in Martin Luther's Bible, Easter in the N.T. of those respective Bible was referring to the Jewish Passover in the O.T. of those Bible versions.
Since the first month of the year is also the first month of Spring for why the month of the Passover is synonymous with the month of Easter, then it should be no mystery why Easter is Passover back then.
Is the Holy Spirit a separate person from Jesus then, equally God?
Indeed, I didn't comment on Tyndale's use of Easter or Eoster though it was the starting issue of this OP. I didn't mention it because Tyndale just followed the previous traditions of the translations about Pascha throughout his translation of NT. Tyndale had made the translation advanced quite a lot, but there was a certain limit and mistakes in his work.
Indeed, it was the accepted practice at the time of Tyndale that Passover was translated into Easter and that Easter meant Passover, but KJV distinguished it only in Acts 12:4, because there is a certain reason to question about the sequence of DUB and Passover as Passover comes before DUB in case of Acts 12:4.
Other than these, I think I covered already in reply to Logos on this issue
Thanks
Eliyahu
Hark
Well-Known Member
He spoke what He heard from Christ, ( John 16:13-15 )of Whom Christ Jesus is the Head of the Church. 1 Corinthians 11:3 & Ephesians 4:15 & Ephesians 5:23
Hark
Well-Known Member
Yes. BUT did the Holy Spirit die on the cross for our sins?
is that not why the Son, Jesus Christ, is to be exalted alone in worship in order to glorify God the Father? Philippians 2:5-11
He has His own mind and can speak His own words!
The Holy Spirit does things that neither the Father nor Jesus do in the life of the redeemed!
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