Read it for yourself Amy, as soon as they commit sin.
Now, if total depravity is true, how could any man be righteous? And if this is speaking of a born again person, then eternal security is refuted.
Keep trying though...
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Eastern Orthodoxy and original sin
- Thread starter Michael Wrenn
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Read it for yourself Amy, as soon as they commit sin.
Now, if total depravity is true, how could any man be righteous? And if this is speaking of a born again person, then eternal security is refuted.
Keep trying though...
Oh, so only for the Jews the son does not BEAR the iniquity of his father? Is that your argument?
You guys would be comical if it were not such tremendous error.
Keep trying...
All mankind was made in Adam just as all bears where made by God in the creation of the first two bears! From that point forward they REPRODUCE after their own kind.
In the former making there was no kind of CONTRIBUTION or PARTICIPATION by what was "made" by God. In the latter there is participation and contribution in REPRODUCING after their own kind.
So Psalms 100:3 cannot possibly be applied outside of the initial making because he goes on to say "AND NOT WE OURSELVES" which is not true concerning secondary REPRODUCTION making!
you cannot deal withe contextual definition and so you resort to ridicule which reflects only on your inability to deal with the text.
He gave the ten commandments to the Jews also but the principles are UNIVERSAL. However, the implication of the ten commandments in the JUDICIAL sytem "IN ISRAEL" is not universal and so is the case with Ezekiel 18 as Ezekiel 18:2-3 explicitly tells you where this application was intended - ON EARTH "concerning the land of Israel" not at the white seat judgment as you READ INTO this text.
You didn't read the verse carefully, it says that God made us, AND NOT WE OURSELVES.
Job 10:8 Thine hands have made me and fashioned me together round about; yet thou dost destroy me.
9 Remember, I beseech thee, that thou hast made me as the clay; and wilt thou bring me into dust again?
Psa 22:9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
Psa 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
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You did not read my response carefully! I pointed out that procreation does include "OURSELVES" in the birth process as it requires the actions of one male and one female along with God. But original making of man with the ability to procreate does not require inclusion of "OURSELVES" in that original making as God did it entirely alone! Hence, this Psalm cannot possibly refer to procreation but only to creation because it explicitly denies HUMAN PARTICIPATION by the words "and not we ourselves"!
I have 8 children, I am not ignorant of the process. Nevertheless, the scriptures clearly say God made all of us. And that is the problem, if you believe man is born sinful, then you believe God made sin!
Acts 18:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Paul was speaking to unbelievers here, he was speaking to the Greeks who were worshiping idols, yet he told them God made them and they were his offspring. God gave them life and made them move. He gave them their BEING.
If your view is correct, then God made sinners. If my view is correct, God made all men upright, but all men have chosen to sin and become sinners.
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Who accused you of being "ignorant of the process"? I accused you of mishandling the Psalm as the Psalm denied human inclusion in the process being described! That means it cannot refer to procreation where "we ourselves" are involved in the proceation.
Now, you are artfully dodging the exposure of your mishandling of that text and attempting to redirect to scriptures that do speak of the process of procreation.
You mishandled, perverted and abused Psalm 100:3 and now you are sidestepping that abuse and attempting to redirect the discussion.
Own up to your abuse to Psalm 100:3 and then we can proceed to some other text. If you are unwilling to own up to obvious abuse then why should you own up to abuse at any other text??? And so what is the point of discussing anything with you as it would be only a futile circle of arguments never ending?
Your interpretation of Psalm 100:3 has been proven to be wrong and pure pride keeps you from admitting it!
Me, artful? Why you make me laugh! :laugh:
Look, you are the one who has to ignore numerous scriptures (and I could show many more) that say God made us. God gives us life, in him we move, in him we have our very BEING. Now you are saying that being is sinful, I am saying it is not. I believe God made all men upright, but all men have chosen to use their God-given free will and sinned. In your view God is responsible for sin, as all men are born sinners and cannot help but sin. In my view no man has an excuse, all men have chosen to sin of themselves and become sinners.
You probably don't realize this, but this is the ISSUE between Cals and non-Cals. Non-Cals are not exalting man, we are making man 100% responsible for his own sin. What we object to is the idea that God made men sinners who cannot help but sin. This is your view, though you will never admit it. You will say all men sin because of Adam, but you will not admit that it was God who cursed man with this sinful nature (in your view). I do not believe God cursed man's nature, there is not one word in Genesis or anywhere in scripture that says God cursed man's nature. The scriptures say God cursed the GROUND. He did curse the woman in childbirth, but again, this has nothing to do with our moral nature.
It is not like I cannot present scripture to support my view, you see it for yourself.
Time will tell.
No you don't need a Ph.d to understand this passage. Nowhere does it speak of eternal damnation; nowhere. Look at the context in the WEB
Ezekiel 18:10 If he fathers a son who is a robber, a shedder of blood, and who does any one of these things,
11 and who does not any of those [duties], but even has eaten on the mountains, and defiled his neighbor's wife,
12 has wronged the poor and needy, has taken by robbery, has not restored the pledge, and has lifted up his eyes to the idols, has committed abomination,
13 has given forth on interest, and has taken increase; shall he then live? he shall not live: he has done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be on him.
14 Now, behold, if he fathers a son, who sees all his father's sins, which he has done, and fears, and does not such like;
15 who has not eaten on the mountains, neither has lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, has not defiled his neighbor's wife,
16 neither has wronged any, has not taken anything to pledge, neither has taken by robbery, but has given his bread to the hungry, and has covered the naked with a garment;
17 who has withdrawn his hand from the poor, who has not received interest nor increase, has executed my ordinances, has walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.
18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, robbed his brother, and did that which is not good among his people, behold, he shall die in his iniquity.
19 Yet say you, Why does not the son bear the iniquity of the father? when the son has done that which is lawful and right, and has kept all my statutes, and has done them, he shall surely live.
20 The soul who sins, he shall die: the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be on him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be on him.
Consider the generations involved, and the crimes involved.
Ezekiel 18:10 If he fathers a son who is a robber, a shedder of blood, and who does any one of these things,
11 and who does not any of those [duties], but even has eaten on the mountains, and defiled his neighbor's wife,
Ezekiel 18:13 has given forth on interest, and has taken increase; shall he then live? he shall not live: he has done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be on him.
Let's make it personal only to make it understandable. (God forbid that this should ever happen. It is only for the purpose of illustration).
If Winman has a son, and his son is involved in the various crimes listed, then Winman's son shall surely die. His blood shall be on him (Winman's son.)
Ezekiel 18:14 Now, behold, if he fathers a son, who sees all his father's sins, which he has done, and fears, and does not such like;
--Now the tables are turned. If the father is wicked and his son sees all his crimes but fears God, fears his father, and does no such crime, then:
Ezekiel 18:17 who has withdrawn his hand from the poor, who has not received interest nor increase, has executed my ordinances, has walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.
--He shall not die. He has not committed evil, the evils of his father in particular. Why should he die for the crimes that his father has done?
Ezekiel 18:18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, robbed his brother, and did that which is not good among his people, behold, he shall die in his iniquity.
--His father, because of the nature of his crimes will be tried, and no doubt found guilty, and shall pay for the crimes--die in his iniquity. They had the death penalty.
Ezekiel 18:19 Yet say you, Why does not the son bear the iniquity of the father? when the son has done that which is lawful and right, and has kept all my statutes, and has done them, he shall surely live.
20 The soul who sins, he shall die: the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be on him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be on him.
--Again: The son does not pay for the sins of the father when the son is innocent and has done no wrong. He will live.
But the person (soul) who does sin (as in murder) will die. He will face the consequence of his sin.
The son will not bear the iniquity of the father.
The father will not bear the iniquity of the son.
This is the justice system. It has nothing to do with spiritual life or damnation.
Again, the debate was over Psalm 100:3! Again you resort to ridicule, changing the texts and accusations.
No one is denying that the Bible teaches procreation in the sense of being "made" by God but Psalm 100:3 is not one of those texts as you attempted to interpret it to be. You were wrong on THAT TEXT as the making in that text does not include "ourselves" whereas in procreation texts that denial could not be inserted and it is is not.
Once again, you were wrong in regard to Psalm 100:3 and now you are again attempting to divert the attention and discussion to texts that do describe procreation. That is simply dishonest and why should I discuss other texts with you when it is obvious you cannot honestly admit your wrong on a given text when it is obvious you are wrong???? It is just a futile discussion with you simply because you lack honesty in regard to the facts of Psalm 100:3 and so why should I expect any more honesty from you with any other text?!
I'm not going to keep arguing with you DHK, you saw my view. God spoke of men dying IN THEIR SIN. This is not speaking of being executed, it is speaking of dying under the condemnation of sin. It is speaking of eternal death, not temporal. This is the exact language Jesus used.
Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Believe whatever you want, time will tell.
Your view is wrong and the introduction which specifically and explicitly defines the place and process proves it is wrong. The moral principle is universal but the application of this context is not but is precisely stated to be "IN ISRAEL" and "CONCERNING the land of Israel." So you are wrong and the context proves it.
Not only so, but you are wrong about applying this POST-fallen NON-representative context "in Israel" to Romans 5:12-19 where it is explicitly a PRE-fallen REPRESENTATIVE action by "ONE MAN" whereby that action "MADE MANY SINNERS."
This is so obvious that only willful blindness can deny it.
I was not wrong. We obtain our bodies from our parents, but not our soul. Our soul is created by God, man does not have this ability.
Jer 38:16 So Zedekiah the king sware secretly unto Jeremiah, saying, As the LORD liveth, that made us this soul, I will not put thee to death, neither will I give thee into the hand of these men that seek thy life.
We got our body from our parents, but it is God who gave us our soul. In him we have life, in him we move, in him we have our being. The moment your soul leaves your body you are physically dead.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Your body is not you, it is simply a shell you inherited from your parents. Your being, your true identity is your soul and spirit which came from God.
But according to you, God gave us all an evil soul and spirit.
Isa 57:16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.
Now we will see who is proud and will not admit when they are wrong.
I expounded the passage for you verse by verse, repeating many of the verses for you twice for extra explanation. After all that exposition the best you can do is quote a verse out of John which has nothing to do with the civil law in Ezekiel.
And then you tell me that black is white, and white is black.
You cannot offer any good reason for your conclusion.
I told you exactly why I believe God was speaking of eternal death in Ezekiel 18.
Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
God is not speaking of civil execution here, he is speaking of eternal death as Jesus was in John 8:24, he is speaking of a man dying in his trespasses and sins.
But there is more in this chapter. God is speaking of the "soul", not the physical body.
Eze 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
These verses throw a huge monkey wrench in your interpretation. First, God says that if a wicked man shall turn away from all his sins, his soul shall live.
Are you trying to tell me that a man could have been a murderer or an adulterer or a thief, and if he repents that the Jews were to let him go free? Total nonsense!
No, God says this man's SOUL shall live. He is not saying that the Jews should let a serial killer live, that would be total nonsense.
This is the last I will argue with you on this, we will have to agree to disagree. But I find your interpretation to be ridiculous.
Believe what you want.
Michael Wrenn
New Member
What is fact is that your position is unknown in the NT and untaught in the early church whose beliefs and teachings were based on the NT. It took Augustine with his pagan background and Latin translations of the NT to corrupt the teachings of Jesus and the apostles, and the Magisterial Reformers continued and expanded these false teachings. So, you protest and deny all you please; you are not far in this area from the Romanism you hate.
And you get this wrong as well.
Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
Our nature is not fixed in stone, and it is not beyond our control. Jesus uses the words "either" and "or else" which shows we have the option and ability to make the choice of whether we are a good tree that bears good fruit, or a corrupt tree that bears corrupt fruit. The word "make" shows this is within our ability to perform it. And if you read this verse in context you will see Jesus was speaking to unbelievers when he said this.
You have to read ALL the scriptures, not simply cherry-pick verses you can combine together to form a false doctrine. You can make the scriptures say anything using your method. And that is indeed what you have done.
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Of course, when the Bible cannot support your position, when you have been proven wrong exegetically and exposed, the the answer is just reassert your error as though it were fact! Of course!
We cannot "make" our nature good or evil. Not a word is said about "choice" here or the will. This is a mere expression that means you have only one of two options. You are either a good or evil tree but whatever you may be it is revealed by the nature of the fruit.