Eastern Orthodoxy and original sin

[The Biblicist]

All analogies DO by definition, and by default, ultimately break down.

Where it breaks down is that ethiopions, leopards and sinners are not synonyms.

You must explain what "consistency" means as referencing an analogy. I don't know what this means.

Sin is not a learned behavior from a vacuum. We cannot play the garden pass the buck game. Ultimately this behavior has its roots in nature not in external influences. It is inconsistent to demand that being "accustomed" in reference to "evil" is purely accidental, external, influential as that is NEVER the case as to its root cause but always grounded in NATURE just as the spots on the leporard are groundd in NATURE and just as the skin on the Ethiopian are based in NATURE.

Indeed, it is pure assumption that has no basis, to suggest that being "accustomed" to doing "evil" originates out of a vacuum, or from purely external influence or by practice as practice has its roots in something.

One may be "accustomed" to drinking tea due to influence, practice or a number of other external factors but not "evil" as "evil" cannot be blamed on someone else or something else because it is a MORAL principle that is grounded in nature. Jesus said a "evil" tree cannot bring forth "good" fruit and neither can a "good" tree bring forth "evil" fruit. These are MORAL principles which by necessity are grounded in the very nature of the thing producing them.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Because Baptism doesn't wash away sins. One needs to be Baptised because one should obey Christ's command to make public profession of faith, but not because it washes away sin...Original sin (as a doctrine) is partially guilty (along with the doctrine of Baptismal regeneration) for the un-Scriptural practice of baptizing infants.

Baptism is our entry into the kingdom of God it is our covenant application. The blood of Jesus washes away sins. Baptism is (as an example) our signature and God's signature on the covenant contract which allows Jesus blood to be applied to the covenant participant much like circumcision was used for the Jews

In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

So in that sense Baptism does permit the washing away of sins.

 

[Yeshua1]

Read it for yourself Amy, as soon as they commit sin.

Now, if total depravity is true, how could any man be righteous? And if this is speaking of a born again person, then eternal security is refuted.

Keep trying though...

Does God consider us sinners before we even commit a sin?


From your understanding, he would not, correct?

Does he condemn someone to hell who has never rejected jesus?

per your understanding, no...

Wouldn't it be better to not even [reach jesus, as once they hear per you, doesn't THAT bring judgement from God?

 

[Winman]

Does God consider us sinners before we even commit a sin?


From your understanding, he would not, correct?

Does he condemn someone to hell who has never rejected jesus?

per your understanding, no...

Wouldn't it be better to not even [reach jesus, as once they hear per you, doesn't THAT bring judgement from God?

The scriptures give us the answer to your question.

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Paul here explains that the Genitlles who sin without the law perish without the law. Why? Because all men have the law written on their hearts.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

You could be born on a remote island where the scriptures have never been preached, and you would still know it is wrong to kill, steal, or lie. In fact, when remote tribes have been discovered, they have laws just like all civilized people. This is because the law is written on the heart.

All men everywhere know certain behavior is wrong like murder, whether they have a written law or not. Paul says men who have sinned without the law shall perish without the law.

What does this have to do with original sin?

 

[Yeshua1]

The scriptures give us the answer to your question.

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Paul here explains that the Genitlles who sin without the law perish without the law. Why? Because all men have the law written on their hearts.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

You could be born on a remote island where the scriptures have never been preached, and you would still know it is wrong to kill, steal, or lie. In fact, when remote tribes have been discovered, they have laws just like all civilized people. This is because the law is written on the heart.

All men everywhere know certain behavior is wrong like murder, whether they have a written law or not. Paul says men who have sinned without the law shall perish without the law.

What does this have to do with original sin?

When are we held as sinners, guilty before god?

IF you say once we actually sin, doesn't that mean that we still might be saved by keeping the law?

Are humans born then in a state like Adam was created in, or jesus was born with?

was jesus one born w/o a sin nature, or was he one that chose not to sin, hence never got one because of that? if so, why couldn't we do the same as he did?

 

[Yeshua1]

Baptism is our entry into the kingdom of God it is our covenant application. The blood of Jesus washes away sins. Baptism is (as an example) our signature and God's signature on the covenant contract which allows Jesus blood to be applied to the covenant participant much like circumcision was used for the Jews
So in that sense Baptism does permit the washing away of sins.

again, you err by misreading into the texts RCC theology!

can refer to either being baptised by/with the Holy spirit at conversion, or else can refer to us being identified with him, as an outward sign of what already happened when we received him by faith!

The Bible clear tht its faith in jesus as the Son of Gd/saviour ALONE that gets uspassage into the Kingdom!

 

[Winman]

When are we held as sinners, guilty before god?

IF you say once we actually sin, doesn't that mean that we still might be saved by keeping the law?

Are humans born then in a state like Adam was created in, or jesus was born with?

was jesus one born w/o a sin nature, or was he one that chose not to sin, hence never got one because of that? if so, why couldn't we do the same as he did?

I believe the scriptures clearly teach that babies and very little children do not understand the difference between right and wrong and are therefore not accountable. You could tell a one year old child not to lie or steal, and they will not have a clue what you are talking about, it would be like telling your pet dog not to lie or steal.

There are quite a few verses that show little children do not know between good and evil.

Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

God did not punish the children of the Jews who sinned in the wilderness because they did not know what they were doing. They were allowed to enter the promised land, while all the parents perished.

Jon 4:11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

Here, God asks Jonah if it were not just and right that he should spare Nineveh because there were 120,000 small children in the city. They were no more guilty of their parents sin than the cattle.

So, I believe the scriptures clearly show God does not hold any child responsible for any sin they commit until they are mature enough to understand their actions. Once they do understand right from wrong and willingly commit sin, then they spiritually die. This is why Paul could say he was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived and he died.

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

If Original Sin is true, it would be impossible for Paul to say he was ever alive once. But that is exactly what he told us.

The law was written 1500 years before Paul was born, so he is not speaking of the actual law being written. No, he is speaking of when he matured and became aware of the law. He had just said that he had not known sin but by the law.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

So, Paul is clearly speaking about becoming knowledgeable of the law, becoming aware of it and understanding it. When a man understands the law and willingly sins, he is then justly convicted by the law and spiritually dies.

As far as sinning, no man HAS to sin. Have you ever been compelled to sin? Be honest.

I've never been compelled to sin, not once. But I have chosen to sin thousands of times.