Thinkingstuff said:
Thank you for a more thought out reply.
Ok. Universality the way I currently believe it. There are "real" blood bought born again christians in a multitude of denominations. This is the unified church.
For the sake of confusion, and correct Biblical terminology let's look at it this way.
In answer to your statement, it is fairly simple.
The word church means assembly. Every time it comes from the word "ekklesia" which has only one meaning, and that is "assembly." It is impossible for an assembly to be universal except in heaven. That simple fact in and of itself should put to rest any concept of a universal "assembly" or church. Where would it meet? When would it meet? Who are the deacons? etc. These questions have never even been attempted to answer. The reason: It is impossible to have a universal church or assembly. It is a contradiction in terms.
Why not use Biblical terminology as found in the Bible? Perhaps it is simply a matter of semantics. All blood-bought believers, when saved become part of the
family of God, We become his children, and God becomes our Father. That is where the universality comes in. My family is spread all over the province in which I live. I rarely see some of my brothers and sisters, but we are still related to each other. We still belong to the same family and always will be. There is nothing that can ever change that fact. So it is with the family of God. Once born again, we are born into God's family and become sisters and brothers. Nothing can ever change the bond that we have with each other as children of God. In that we find some degree of unity. We are one family. We may never have a family reunion until we reach Heaven, but we are still one family--all sons and daughters of the King of kings. Agreed?
In my individual church some are saved others are not. Those that are not are not a member of the universal church.
I discount a universal church because I don't believe one exists. (my perogative and my conviction). However, they certainly would not be a part of the family of God, and as imposters they would not be a part of my local church even if they pretended to be. Our church is composed of baptized regenerated believers only. If someone slips in who is not saved, then by default he is not a member though he claims to be. Only the saved are members. He may fool people, but he cannot fool God. Eventually he will be found out. John tells us that:
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
--Such a "fake" will not continue long in our church. His colors will show sooner or later. Again, our church is composed only of baptized believers. We have no unsaved people in it, though unsaved people may visit--that doesn't make them members.
Accountability? Scriptures primary source!.
Paul, in Acts 13, was sent out as a missionary from the church at Antioch. On each of his three missionary journeys he returned to the church at Antioch and reported all that he had accomplished. He was accountable to that church.
The church at Jerusalem was accountable to James, who was the pastor. When a decision had to be made, such as in Acts 15, it was not a consensus of many. James, after hearing all the evidence made the decision, and the rest of the church and those present were accountable to him. It was James, the pastor, that made the decision:
Acts 15:13 And after they had held their peace,
James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
Acts 15:19 Wherefore
my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
--My sentence, my decision or judgement. He was the one who rendered the decision to which all others would be accountable. He was the pastor.
Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
--This speaks of the spiritual leaders, the leaders of the church. "They watch for your
souls"
1 Peter 5:4-5 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
--Notice the context here.
Verse four speaks of the chief Shepherd--Jesus Christ.
In verse five the youger is to submit to the elder. Many commentaries believe that this is speaking of younger men as deacons submitting to the elders or pastors of the church.
Pastoral authority is taught all throughout the Bible. Without it the church would sink into chaos.
If you believe in pastoral authority; that necessitates accountability.
However, I believe in being subject to pastoral authority over me in my local church. The way our baptist church is set up is that he is accountable to the congregation. I will read your "unbiased book" and see for myself. Not only Catholics wrote history btw. There are other sources than catholic. I've read these as well. there is always a paper trail except for those occasions that things did not happen as people believe such as the LDS with their ancient american civilization. BTW there is no such thing as an "unbiased book". And Keep in mind The Holy Spirit is not silent with his faithful. (I'm not pentcostal just a statement.)
Yes I agee.
I'm hurring up so my reply is a little disjointed. Your wrong about Jim Jones in my thinking He would be unsaved therefore not a part of the Universal church.
I use an exteme example. But there are genuine examples. The actual founder of the SDA's was a Baptist preacher named Miller, caught up in date setting for the coming of Christ. He had some strange ideas, but still part of your universal church. There are some believers that are not only Pentecostal, but Charismatic, and not only Charismatic, but caught up in the "Third Wave." That is unfortunate. They are the ones that: bark like dogs, hiss like snakes, roll down aisles, and all kinds of strange things. But they are part of your so-called universal church. Are they one in doctrine? No! It is impossible. There is no such thing as a universal assembly. And even if it could be it could never be one in unity as Jesus prayed. It would never fit the pattern of Jesus Great High Priestly prayer (John 17). I have some brothers and sisters that do some strange things. Now, that's a different story. But a church must be a body of believers united together in a bond of love and unity for one purpose, one direction aiming for the same goals in the community in which God put them.
The earliest christians were not as isolated from each other as you keep trying to suggest. They worked with each other and supported each other and were accountable to each other. That is actual history but just to satify the argument and understand your position I'll take a gander.
Just use some common sense. Travel was difficult. There were no phones, no planes, trains, or any kind of common transportation.
The churches in Asia were a large distance away from those in Europe, which in turn were a long way from Palestine and Egypt. They, indeed, were isolated from each other. There was no way that they had communication with each other except for the occasional letter or missionary such as Paul. And even that was rare. How long would it take for Paul to go from Rome to Corinth in Greece, to Jerusalem, and to Philippi in Macedonia, and also his travel to Turkey and to Spain. They were isolated churches. Travel was not easy.
