Ecclesia vs. Hetaeria

[Alive in Christ]

DHK,

I started to go through your post point by point, but it became apparent that it would be like trying to unscramble a bowl or spagetti. :laugh:

So...I'm going to just go ahead and post some information (with a link) that is very good regarding this topic, and I pray will help with your further enlightenment regarding the truth of Christs Universal Church.

As you will see, the part of this that deals with the "universal" side of this is flooded with scriptural support.

Here you go...

""THE CHURCH JESUS BUILT"

The Church "Universal" vs. The Church "Local"

INTRODUCTION

1. The nature of "The Church Jesus Built" can be discerned when one... a. Considers the meaning of the word "church" itself 1) From the Greek word ekklesia, it means "an assembly"

2) Which is used most frequently in the New Testament in two senses:

a) The church "universal" - that company of souls redeemed by the blood of Christ

b) The church "local" - Christians in a geographical area that work and worship together as a congregation of God's people b. Considers other terms which enhance our view of the "church"

1) The "body" of Christ

2) The "household" of God

3) The "temple" of God

4) The "kingdom" of Christ

5) The "bride" of Christ --

These expressions reveal different aspects of the Lord's great assembly!

2. Our understanding of the nature of the church can also be enhanced by... a. Contrasting the church "universal" with the church "local" b. Noting how the New Testament carefully delineates between the two

3. Failure to observe the distinction between the church "universal" and church "local"... a. Leaves one open to erroneous concepts of the church b. Makes one susceptible to false views of the church [In this lesson, therefore, I would like for us to notice ways in which the church "universal" is different from the church "local". Let's begin by looking at...]

I. "THE CHURCH "UNIVERSAL"

A. COMPOSED OF ALL CHRISTIANS... 1. This is the church to which Jesus referred in Mt 16:18 2. As already noted, it is made up all the saved, both living and death - cf. He 12:22-24

B. THERE IS ONLY "ONE" CHURCH... 1. Remember, the universal church is called the "body" of Christ - Ep 1:22-23 2. There is only one "body" (Ep 4:4); therefore, only one church!

C. BEGAN ON THE DAY OF PENTECOST... 1. In Jerusalem, following the death, resurrection and ascension of Christ - Ac 2:1-47 2. As Peter later referred to this day, it was the "beginning" - cf. Ac 11:15

D. ENTER ONLY BE BEING "ADDED" BY THE LORD... 1. One cannot "join" the church by their own volition 2. Rather, they are "added" by the Lord Himself when saved - Ac 2:41,47

E. THE LORD KEEPS THE BOOKS OF MEMBERSHIP... 1. There is no agency on earth that keeps the registry of true members 2. Enrollment is in heaven; only the Lord knows those who are truly His - He 12:23; 2 Ti 2:19

F. CONSISTS OF ALL THE SAVED... 1. The Lord is presenting to Himself a church holy and without blemish - cf. Ep 5:25-27 2. Those in the church who are sinning and refuse to repent are "cut off", "cast out", "spewed out" - cf. Jn 15:2,6; Ro 11: 19-22; Re 3:16

G. MUST BE IN THIS CHURCH TO BE SAVED... 1. For the Lord is the Savior of the "body" (which is His church) - Ep 5:23 2. Since the Lord adds one to His church when they are saved, one cannot be saved and not be in the church "universal"!

H. HAS NO "EARTHLY" ORGANIZATION... 1. The church "universal" has organization - cf. Ep 2:19-22; 1 Pe 2:5 a. What organization exists is spiritual in nature b. E.g., Christ as the cornerstone, together with His apostles and prophets as the foundation, and all Christians as "living stones" 2. There is no earthly headquarters for the church; e.g., no telephone number to call to speak with the "head" of the church (for He is in heaven!)

I. CANNOT BE DIVIDED... 1. For there is no earthly organization to divide! 2. If division appears to exist... a. Some unscriptural organization of churches must have been created b. Such an organization can have division, but the Lord's church "universal" cannot! 3. Those who would seek to divide the church through doctrine, conduct, etc., are simply cut off by the Lord Himself! -- There is and always will be, "one body"! - Ep 4:4 (we need to make sure we are remaining faithful to be in it!)

J. DEATH DOESN'T AFFECT MEMBERSHIP... 1. The church "universal" is made up of the saved, both living and dead - He 12:22-23 2. When one dies, they are still with Christ! - Ph 1:21-23; 1 Th 5:10 [These ten things are true of the church "universal"; now let's contrast that with...]

II. THE CHURCH "LOCAL"

A. COMPOSED OF CHRISTIANS IN ONE LOCATION... 1. A local church is made up of Christians in one geographical area 2. E.g., the church at Corinth, the church of the Thessalonians - 1 Co 1:2; 1 Th 1:1 -- In contrast, the church "universal" is made up of Christians everywhere!

B. THERE ARE "MANY" CHURCHES... 1. Paul had reference to local churches when he wrote Ro 16:16 2. And again when he wrote Ga 1:2 -- When it comes to the church "universal", though, there is just ONE!

C. BEGINS WHENEVER PEOPLE JOIN THEMSELVES TOGETHER... 1. As the gospel spreads and people respond to it, those in a particular area start a local church when they agree to work together as one 2. Just as the church in Antioch began later than the church in Jerusalem - Ac 11:19-26 -- Whereas the church "universal" began in Jerusalem on Pentecost, "local" churches have begun at different places and different times!

D. ENTER BY "JOINING" THE CHURCH... 1. When one wishes to become an accepted member of the local church, they must "join themselves" to that church 2. Such as Paul sought to do when he came to the church in Jerusalem - Ac 9:26-28 -- Whereas one is "added" by the Lord Himself to the universal church, we can seek to "join" a local congregation (if its members are willing to accept us)

E. ENROLLED THROUGH HUMAN JUDGMENT... 1. Whether we are accepted into a local church is a decision made by the leaders or members of that church 2. Sometimes people are rejected when they should be received - 3 Jn 5-9 -- Evil men may succeed in kicking one out of a local church, but only the Lord determines who stays in the universal church!

F. CONSISTS OF BOTH SAVED AND LOST... 1. Since enrollment occurs through human judgment, fallible decisions can be made 2. A local church may therefore have some who are nominal Christians - cf. Re 3:1-4 -- Hypocrites may become members of a local church; but they don't sneak by the Lord to become members of the universal church!

G. DO NOT HAVE TO BE IN THIS CHURCH TO BE SAVED... 1. One can be saved, and not belong to any local church 2. Such was the case of the Eunuch immediately following his conversion, and of Paul when he was in transit between Antioch and Jerusalem - cf. Ac 8:39; 9:26 -- Of course, this should be temporary; in the universal church, it is impossible!

H. HAS "EARTHLY" ORGANIZATION... 1. A local church when scripturally organized will have bishops and deacons - Ph 1:1 2. These bishops were also called "elders" and "pastors", whose role was to oversee and feed the local congregation - Ac 14: 23; 20:17,28 -- The only role or position ever given men over the universal church on earth was the apostles, and they were not replaced when they died - e.g., James in Ac 12:2

I. CAN BE DIVIDED... 1. Local churches can easily be divided over doctrine or personalities 2. Such was the case with the church at Corinth - 1 Co 1:10-13; 3:3,4 -- While we can't divide the universal church, we can be responsible for dividing local churches!

J. DEATH AFFECTS MEMBERSHIP... 1. When we die, our membership in a local congregation ends 2. Just as when Stephen died, he was no longer a member of the Jerusalem church - Ac 8:1-2 -- But our membership in the church universal continues on after death!

CONCLUSION

1. To illustrate the differences between the church universal and local, consider this table... The Church "Universal" The Church "Local" Composed of all Christians Composed of Christians in one location There is just "one" There are "many" Began on the "Day of Pentecost" Begins when people join together Enter only by being added by the Enter by "joining ourselves" Lord The Lord keeps the books of Enrolled by human judgment membership Consists of all the saved Consists of both saved and lost Must be in this to be saved Do not have to be in this to be saved Has no "earthly" organization Has "earthly" organization Can't be divided Can be divided Death doesn't affect membership Death does affect membership

2. Why note the difference between the church "universal" and the church "local"? a. To better understand how the word "church" is used in the New Testament b. To avoid confusion in our thinking when we use the word "church" -- When we are aware of the differences, we are also better able to identify the New Testamen church today! (see next lesson)

3. One could say that a key difference between the two is this... a. The church "universal" in essence concerns our relationship with Christ b. The church "local" basically concerns our relationship with one another -- Of course, our service in the latter can certainly affect our standing in the former! "

You seem to have a little "blind spot" regarding this topic, DHK. I hope this study will be of benefit to your further growth.



:godisgood:


http://http://freegroups.net/library/www.christianlibrary.org/authors/Mark_A_Copeland/cjb/cjb_03.htm


.

 

[Tom Butler]

Bro. Copeland gets off on the wrong foot from the very beginning.

He states flatly that the Greek word "ekklasia" means "assembly," used in two senses. One, the "church universal, the company of all believers. Two, the "church local," believers gathered in a geographical area.

So, "ekklasia, assembly" is a company of believers that doesn't assemble, and a company of believers that assembles.

The one that doesn't assemble is a "spiritual" entity.

H. HAS NO "EARTHLY" ORGANIZATION... 1. The church "universal" has organization - cf. Ep 2:19-22; 1 Pe 2:5 a. What organization exists is spiritual in nature b. E.g., Christ as the cornerstone, together with His apostles and prophets as the foundation, and all Christians as "living stones" 2. There is no earthly headquarters for the church; e.g., no telephone number to call to speak with the "head" of the church (for He is in heaven!)

Hard to argue with this. Bro. Copeland is making my argument for me. It's so spiritual that it's invisible. This leads me back to my question, for what purpose does this entity exist? What does this non-assembling assembly actually DO?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

DHK
"Paul was writing to the church at Ephesus. They were one body. There was to be unity in that body of believers. Neither Paul nor Jesus ever wrote of a unity of world-wide believers. This passage speaks of no such thing. He is speaking to the believers at Ephesus. The teaching to the church at Ephesus is applicable to every local church.
Every local church is one body of believers gathered together in one spirit of unity, as they are called to one hope when they were saved."

GE
Alright, DHK; say, you are right: Then, is every 'local', 'Christian' 'Assembly' worldwide, and almost as of many different and differing opinion and persuasion and claim on 'Truth', every one of them, "The Church"? How do you deal with division and strife, while each local 'Church=Assembly' denies any other or any grouping of others 'possessors' of the Truth = the Godpel = Salvation?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I agree with Bro Copeland; the Church per definition the Ekklesia IS INVISIBLE, OF ALL TIME, AND UNIVERSAL, even, and especially, in 'local' assemblies. Because no one can deny or must lie there is no single such 'local' assembling or assembly that does not consist of mainly tares, with even the good seed, still sinful sinners without exception. Therefore I maintain the True Church=Assemblies "Of Christ's Own" are the True Church=Assemblies "Of Christ's Own" IN CHRIST and nowhere or ever in time 'local' or 'locally'.

The trouble with DHK and others is simply they are too learned for the poor little invisible fellas that really make up the True Church=Assemblies of Jesus Christ.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

.... Bro. Copeland is making my argument for me. It's so spiritual that it's invisible. This leads me back to my question, for what purpose does this entity exist? What does this non-assembling assembly actually DO?

GE
Ah!!! That's exactly the essence of all!
They do NOTHING! They believe; they are so invisible their life is with Christ HIDDEN in God. The World does not know them, acknowledge them, concerns itself with them, but take offense of Him Whom they worship. Who cares about them? If anyone does, it's not the Body of Christ's Own, gauranteed!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

AliveinChrist:
"You seem to have a little "blind spot" regarding this topic, DHK. I hope this study will be of benefit to your further growth."

GE:
Here's your definition to answer every argument: "Alive in Christ"='Church'="Called Out"=Christ's Own" ---- "Alive in Christ" - if that isn't 'spiritual', 'universal', 'invisible', and of ANY "IN Christ", I wouldn't know what would.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

If there is a righteousness by faith only there is a Church of faith only; for the true Church consists of the righteous by faith only.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Tom Butler,

"Hard to argue with this. Bro. Copeland is making my argument for me. It's so spiritual that it's invisible."

Its invisible in the sense that its all the christians in the world...even when they are not gathered.

"This leads me back to my question, for what purpose does this entity exist?

To be an instrument through which Christ can accomplish His purposes.

"What does this non-assembling assembly actually DO?"

Those things that Christ works in and through them. It happens surely millions of times every day. If you look you'll catch Christ in action. And if you are willing it might be YOU! :thumbs:


:godisgood:

 

[DHK]

Alright, DHK; say, you are right: Then, is every 'local', 'Christian' 'Assembly' worldwide,

Why would you even ask that question? If it is local, it can't be worldwide can it?
Paul wrote to Corinth, for example. Corinth is in Greece, and only in one small area of Greece. Corinth is not spread all over the world. Your questioin doesn't even make sense.

and almost as of many different and differing opinion and persuasion and claim on 'Truth', every one of them,

Quite possible. The church at Corinth, (until straightened out by Paul) denied the resurrection--at least some of them did ("How say some of you...). It was enough to become an issue. Many of the believers at Thessalonica were confused as to what would become of their loved ones that had passed away, when the ressurection would take place. Many of the believers in Galatia were confused by false teachers who were teaching them that keeping the law must be part of salvation.
All of these were serious doctrinal errors. But these were all churches that remained true to the Word of God, and were highly commended by Paul.

Read about the churches in Revelation 2 and 3. Look at their doctrinal differences. There are many. Some are closer to the truth than others. Some need to be corrected or even rebuked. Perhaps you suggest we all go to the RCC and be drones blindly accepting their catechism without being allowed to question anything??
Is that your advice?

"The Church"? How do you deal with division and strife, while each local 'Church=Assembly' denies any other or any grouping of others 'possessors' of the Truth = the Godpel = Salvation?

Read the First Epistle of Corinthians. How did Paul deal with it.

 

[gb93433]

Why would you even ask that question? If it is local, it can't be worldwide can it?

For the third time I ask you in this forum which church did Jesus speak of in Matthew 16:18?

 

[Tom Butler]

Here's my answer. It is a visible, assembling entity, created by Jesus when the selection of his twelve disciples was fionished. From this dozen men, Jesus, in Matthew 16:18 promised that he would build his church. And during his ministry, acquired everything it needed to function. And by Pentecost, we know that the number been built to 120.

On the day of Pentecost, that which already existed was empowered by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Tom Butler]

Alive in Christ said:

Tom Butler,

Quote:
"Hard to argue with this. Bro. Copeland is making my argument for me. It's so spiritual that it's invisible."

AIC: Its invisible in the sense that its all the christians in the world...even when they are not gathered.

Quote:
"This leads me back to my question, for what purpose does this entity exist?

AIC: To be an instrument through which Christ can accomplish His purposes.

Quote:
"What does this non-assembling assembly actually DO?"

AIC: Those things that Christ works in and through them. It happens surely millions of times every day. If you look you'll catch Christ in action. And if you are willing it might be YOU

Maybe you an GE should compare notes. He says the Universal Church actually does NOTHING.

On the other hand, it is easy to see what the local church is doing, and we can see it in action. I wonder which is more pleasing to God? That which is obeying the Great Commission and can be seen doing it, or the one which is not?

 

[DHK]

For the third time I ask you in this forum which church did Jesus speak of in Matthew 16:18?

He used the word ekklesia "assembly" in a generic way, the same way that he used it in Matthew 18

Matthew 18:17 But if he will not listen to them, tell it to the assembly; and if also he will not listen to the assembly, let him be to thee as one of the nations and a tax-gatherer. (Darby)

I ask you the same question: Which assembly was Christ speaking about when he used the word "assemby" twice in one verse, the verse Matthew 18:17?
Was it the assembly at Corinth? at Ephesus? at Philippi? at Jerusalem? Which one?

The word assembly (used in the singular) is used to represent all assemblies. Jesus is giving instruction on how to conduct "church" discipline, or discipline within the local assembly.
First go to your brother yourself, and try and to settle the matter.
Second take one or two with you that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may established. If there is still no change of heart, then the third and final step must be taken.
Bring it before the "assembly." (Matthew 18:17) These are instructions not just for one church but for every local church. The word "church" is used in the singular but applicable to all local churches.

Jesus said: "I will build my assembly and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
It is a generic word just as it is used in Matthew 18:17. Every local church has Christ as its foundation. He is the Rock, the chief cornerstone, the foundation upon which the local church rests. Without Christ there is no local church. All churches which deny Christ, his deity, have a false view of Christ, are not a church at all. Christ must be the foundation.

A fish can call itself a whale; but it will still be a fish, no matter what it says.
If Christ isn't the foundation, you can call yourself a church but it won't make a difference no matter what you say.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Tom Butler (and DHK)...

You (Tom) said...

""What does this non-assembling assembly actually DO?"

And...

"it is easy to see what the local church is doing, and we can see it in action. I wonder which is more pleasing to God? That which is obeying the Great Commission and can be seen doing it,"

You seem to be victim of the same malady that DHK and others are affilcted with. That being "Church-ianity", to the detriment of Christ-ianity

You, DHK and others seem to be obsessed with the very irrelavent issue of what can be seen.

You guys are like a broken record. But its not really your fault. The "churchianity" folks have succesfully indoctinated you guys.

Regarding Gods glorious wonderful Universal Church, you guys are constantly saying "What can we SEE?, What can we SEE?. What can we SEE?, What can we SEE?, etc etc ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

Please take this to heart, from our Lord...

Matthew 6: 1-6

"“Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men, to be seen by them. Otherwise you have no reward from your Father in heaven.

2 Therefore, when you do a charitable deed, do not sound a trumpet before you as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory from men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward.

3 But when you do a charitable deed, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,

4 that your charitable deed may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will Himself reward you openly.

5 “And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward.

6 But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly."

I heard of a church, and there are probably many others, that had a sign above the front door of the church. The sign said...

"Our Christian Ministry Begins Now"

The sign was on the INSIDE of the church...to be read on the way OUT.

All over this earth there are millions and millions of chistians being used by God, through the ministry of Gods Universal Church, giving a cup of cold water to someone thirsty, giving words of encouragment to folks, sharing the gospel with folks, sharing money with those in need, extending compassion, giving people some food, sharing the gospel with folks, taking people who dont have cars to the doctor, sharing the gospel with folks, etc etc etc etc etc.

All of this going on during the week, when they are the "scattered" church, as they go about their daily buisiness. Their pastor doesnt know about it, the deacons dont know about it, the elders dont know about it, their bible teachers dont know about it. These people couldnt care less that those people dont know about it. Some of these brothers and sisters might not even be plugged into a fellowship anywhere. Someone shared the gospel with them...they embraced Christ...but they just havent found one yet. They will in time. They are still a part of Gods church. His Universal Church. They are born again, and thats the only requirement needed.

Their great God and heavenly Father knows all about how they are allowing Christ to live through them. He sees it all, and He is exceedingly pleased that His Universal Church is about the buisiness of spreading the gospel and extending Christs love to people in need.

That is what we are talking about, and in my opinion only someone afflicted with a strong dose of "CHURCH-ianity" can...not only not understand it...but actually SLANDER it and fight against the concept by saying it "doesnt exist"!

May God have mercy.

I am not your enemy, guys. I am your brother and you are mine. I just cant understand how anyone can miss something so obvious, and exceedingly SCRIPTURAL.


:godisgood:

 

[DHK]

You seem to be victim of the same malady that DHK and others are affilcted with. That being "Church-ianity", to the detriment of Christ-ianity

1. You seem to be the victim of the one in the debate who has nothing left to say and thus resorts to some type of name-calling. This "churchianity" stuff is getting kind of stale. If you have nothing Biblical to present then perhaps you should bow out of the discussion.

You, DHK and others seem to be obsessed with the very irrelavent issue of what can be seen.

Yes, churches can be seen. Christ died for people. People are not invisible; thank the Lord. When you look into the mirror what do you see? Is it a member of the invisible church? Is he invisible? Is he a member of the Universal assembly? Where does this universal assembly assemble. Why can't I get an answer to that question, though I have asked it more than half a dozen times already. Churches assemble or congregate together, as God commanded them to. Where does this so-called universal church assemble together? Please explain. I await a biblical explanation with Scripture

You guys are like a broken record. But its not really your fault. The "churchianity" folks have succesfully indoctinated you guys.

Shall I go back and count how many times a certain poster has used a made up word, not even found in the dictionary called "churchianity?" And who, then, is the broken record?? But if you had spent your time studying the doctrine of ecclesiology, you would know the importance that God puts on the local church and not make light of it.
Secondly, many would have a better understanding of the doctrine of ecclesiology if the KJV translators had not succumbed to the political expediency of their day, and had actually translated the word ekklesia properly as "assembly" instead of giving into the politics of the day in using a much more political word like church which has a wide variety of meanings to choose from. Thus the translation has become vague; but it is vaguely translated on purpose. It was translated purposely to accomodate for the Anglicans, Catholics, Puritans and others: some of whom agreed with the word "assembly," and some who preferred church. But since "church" could encompass all meanings, they simply went with "church."

Regarding Gods glorious wonderful Universal Church, you guys are constantly saying "What can we SEE?, What can we SEE?. What can we SEE?, What can we SEE?, etc etc ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

Regarding God's what? There is no universal church to see. Why do you speak of something that doesn't exist and something that you never give any Scroptural support for. If you can't give Scriptural support for what you believe in then, please give it up.

Some people still believe there is a man living on the moon. They might as well believe in the universal church as well. As you say: "What can we see?"

I heard of a church, and there are probably many others, that had a sign above the front door of the church. The sign said...

"Our Christian Ministry Begins Now"

The sign above our church door once read: "You are now entering the mission field." And stepping out the door of the local church every believer was.
Do you believe in missions? Do you believe in going out to win the lost? Or are all the lost people found within your church?

The sign was on the INSIDE of the church...to be read on the way OUT.

Is that such a bad thing?
What do you think Jesus meant when He said:
You are the salt of the earth;
You are the light of the world.
--When we walk out of the church door, we as believers in Christ, have a ministry to others. So what is wrong with that sign? I think you are confused.
Think of this verse:
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2 Corinthians 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
1. We are ambassadors for Christ.
2 He has given us the ministry of reconciliation.
--Our ministry is more outside the church than inside.

All over this earth there are millions and millions of chistians being used by God, through the ministry of Gods Universal Church, giving a cup of cold water to someone thirsty, giving words of encouragment to folks, sharing the gospel with folks, sharing money with those in need, extending compassion, giving people some food, sharing the gospel with folks, taking people who dont have cars to the doctor, sharing the gospel with folks, etc etc etc etc etc.

1. If those individuals are not part of a local church they are in disobedience to God, and are not receiving the full blessing that God could be giving them.
2. If they are members of a local church then we can say that there are members of local churches all over this world being used of God giving a cup of water....
3. God has ordained His institution, the local church, as the instrument in which he chooses to work in and through during this period of time. Why do you fight that which God has set up for your teaching and edification. This really baffles me.
4. Again I stress the importance of the local church when:
A. Every letter that Paul ever wrote was written to a local church or to a pastor of a local church.
B. Every letter to all seven churches mentioned in Revelation 2 and 3 was addressed to the pastors of those seven different local churches.
C. Paul went on three missionary journeys and in that time established over 100 local churches. It must have been important enough for him to give the major part of his life in doing the work of a church planter.

All of this during the week, when they are the "scattered" church, as they go about their daily buisiness. Their pastor doesnt know about it, the deacons dont know about it, the elders dont know about it, their bible teachers dont know about it. These people couldnt care less that those people dont know about it.

I tell you what. If you attend a church whose deacons and pastor don't care about the sheep of the flock, then get out of that church right away and find a good Bible-believing church that does. We have pastors and deacons that care. They keep in contact with the members of the church. They know who is sick; who has special needs, etc. We are close to one another, praying for one another. Our church is our family (just over one hundred). We know each other and pray and help each other. No one is just a number on a roll, a tax number, an entity on a visitiors card, etc. We care for each other.
If you are not in a church where, at least the leadership doesn't show interest or care in you then leave, and find a church that does. You paint a very dismal picture of the local church you belong to, where deacons and pastors "couldn't care lees that those people don't know about it." Amazing! I wouldn't darken the doors of an uncaring church.

Their great God and heavenly Father knows about it. He sees it all, and He is exceedingly pleased that His Universal Church is about the buisiness of spreading the gospel and extending Christs love to people in need.

You assume too much. Have you ever seen a "universal church?" I haven't, and neither have you. It doesn't exist. So why do you make claims that you can't substantiate? How can something that doesn't exist, and cannot be proved by Scripture, do the things that you claim? For example how can something invisible and universal spread the gospel. I reallly would like to SEE that sometime. But the reality is you CAN'T SEE that which is invisible. And the so-called uniiversal church is also called the invisible universal church. It is all very contradictory, and makes no sense: not gramatically, not logically, not Biblically.

That is what we are talking about, and in my opinion only someone afflicted with a strong dose of "CHURCH-ianity" can, not only not understand it, but actually SLANDER it and fight against the concept by saying it "doesnt exist"!

There you go again.
Using language that sounds like name-calliing.
Sounding like a broken record.
Sayng the same thing with no defence, no rebuttal, nothing to say, except this type of derogatory language--a message to all that you have no case to present. You have lost all credibility to present any decent argument or case for a universal church and have lowered yourself to an attack agaisnt Biblical Christianity as described in the NT--God's love for the local church.
In Acts 20:28 it specifically says that God gave his blood for the church which is in Ephesus. He loves the local church. It is a divinely ordained institution. And you call, what God has ordained "churchianity!" You ought to be ashamed!

I am not your enemy, guys. I am your brother and you are mine. I just cant understand how anyone can miss something so obvious, and exceedingly SCRIPTURAL.

Neither can I. Consider carefully what you said.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Brother DHK,

Honestly, your post #135 (just above) is such a scattershot mess of confusion, misunderstandings, false accusations, misrepresentations and falsehoods regarding my post to you,(just above yours) that it is just impossible to respond to.

May God help you.

Good day.


:godisgood:

 

[Alive in Christ]

DHK,

I posted...

"The sign was on the INSIDE of the church...to be read on the way OUT."

And you responded...

"Is that such a bad thing?
What do you think Jesus meant when He said:
You are the salt of the earth;
You are the light of the world.
--When we walk out of the church door, we as believers in Christ, have a ministry to others. So what is wrong with that sign? I think you are confused."

My my my.

Ummm....THAT is precisely what I was getting at in my post. After posting about the sign inside the door, I said...

"The sign was on the INSIDE of the church...to be read on the way OUT.

And then I said...

All over this earth there are millions and millions of chistians being used by God, through the ministry of Gods Universal Church, giving a cup of cold water to someone thirsty, giving words of encouragment to folks, sharing the gospel with folks, sharing money with those in need, extending compassion, giving people some food, sharing the gospel with folks, taking people who dont have cars to the doctor, sharing the gospel with folks, etc etc etc etc etc."

Which is precisely what YOU said....and you know that...yet you falsly accused me of not understanding what it meant, when you said....

"Is that such a bad thing?
What do you think Jesus meant when He said:
You are the salt of the earth;
You are the light of the world.
--When we walk out of the church door, we as believers in Christ, have a ministry to others. So what is wrong with that sign? I think you are confused"

And YOU are calling ME.......CONFUSED?????

I pray that God helps you with what troubles you.


:godisgood:

 

[Matt Black]

Matt, I believe you meant Colossian s 1:18 "and he is the head of the body, the church...." not 3:18.

Yes I did. Typo.

But to me, it is not clear at all that it and Matt 16:18 refer to the universal church. The former could easily be interpreted as Paul speaking in a generic or institituional sense. Paul could just as easily mean that wherever there is a church, Jesus is head of it. Or he could simply be referring to the congregation at Colosse.

Then why use the definite article and singular combined? Why not say "a church", "the church at Colossae" or "your church" or "the churches"?

And Mt 16:18 is just as clearly to me referring to the congregation that he was in fact building at that moment, with the twelve disciples as its core group.

Same question pretty much: why "My Church"? That said, I agree with you that it refers to the Church He was at that point building with the disciples, just that the (Universal) Church is a direct descendant of that Body. The alternative is that is just means 'The congregation of the apostles', in which case I would challenge you to show me how this specific congregation is still going today and that the gates of Hell have thus not prevailed against it, unless you have the Jerusalem Patriarchate in mind?

 

[Tom Butler]

Same question pretty much: why "My Church"? That said, I agree with you that it refers to the Church He was at that point building with the disciples, just that the (Universal) Church is a direct descendant of that Body. The alternative is that is just means 'The congregation of the apostles', in which case I would challenge you to show me how this specific congregation is still going today and that the gates of Hell have thus not prevailed against it, unless you have the Jerusalem Patriarchate in mind?

For a long time, I saw that verse as you apparently see it--that the gates of hell will attack, but not defeat. I have come to see it as a local congregation as on the offense, doing the attacking, preaching, teaching, fellowshipping, worshipping,etc. When such a congregation is doing that, Jesus is saying that it will be successfull. He will give them souls for their labors, snatching them away from Satan.

I don't see this passage as guaranteeing that each individual congregation will never cease to exist. I see it as guaranteeing that at all times, there will exist true, New Testament congregations.

We can also speak of the church in a generic or institutional sense, in the same way we speak of "the family." But we can't define either the church or the family without seeing specific, individual churches or families. With the specific entities, the generic reference makes no sense.

 

[Tom Butler]

You, DHK and others seem to be obsessed with the very irrelavent issue of what can be seen.

You guys are like a broken record. But its not really your fault. The "churchianity" folks have succesfully indoctinated you guys.

Regarding Gods glorious wonderful Universal Church, you guys are constantly saying "What can we SEE?, What can we SEE?. What can we SEE?, What can we SEE?, etc etc ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

Let's see what the Scriptures say:

Jesus in Mattthew 5:16: "Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

Peter in I Peter 2:12: Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Acts 4:13 No when they they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were ignorant and unlearned men, they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

The passage you quoted from Matthew 6 attacked the motivation of those who were doing good deeds. They were doing it "that they may have glory from men."