"Effectual Call"

[dwmoeller1]

So by a similar metaphor, we are not "espoused" to Christ, His "bride?"

?? Not following you there. Please elucidate.

No, faith and justification ("righteousness of God") are given by God at the same time. It is new birth that did (OT) and could (NT) come after faith (Acts 19).

Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

How can faith come with justification if we are justified by? "By" faith indicates that faith must precede justification.

Hear -- believe -- repent (test of belief) -- faith unto justification -/- regeneratoin/sanctification

Where is this described in Scripture?

Well, they're not. God gives ro witholds faith based upon a "belief test."

Again, Scripture please.

 

[skypair]

Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.[/i]

How can faith come with justification if we are justified by? "By" faith indicates that faith must precede justification.

Let's look at it this way -- we are saved by Christ, right? Does that mean that Christ saved us or that we had to believe in Him first, then were saved? This particularly could not apply to the OT saints since Christ had not been born nor died yet. Same thing in the phrase "justified by faith." It doesn't give the order -- it gives the requirement, faith.

Where is this [hear - believe - regeneration] described in Scripture?

Eph 1:13 -- heard - believed - sealed. Do you see those words? "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,..."

Again ["belief test,"] Scripture please.

Rom 10:8-10 -- "the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That IF thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."


skypair

 

[dwmoeller1]

Let's look at it this way -- we are saved by Christ, right? Does that mean that Christ saved us or that we had to believe in Him first, then were saved? This particularly could not apply to the OT saints since Christ had not been born nor died yet. Same thing in the phrase "justified by faith." It doesn't give the order -- it gives the requirement, faith.

Interestingly enough, Scripture never says we are saved 'by Christ'. So, no I would not agree that we are saved 'by Christ'.

While I am thinking about it, here is a verse which used faith/believe interchangably as a noun/verb expressing the same concept:
Rom 4:3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Abraham's believing was counted for righteousness. one's faith is counted as righteousness.

Eph 1:13 -- heard - believed - sealed. Do you see those words? "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,..."

I missed where it mentioned anything about regeneration. What Scripture establishes that 'sealed by the HS' is the same thing as 'regeneration'?

Rom 10:8-10 -- "the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That IF thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

I am not following where the passage mentions the 'belief test' you described. Is confessing with the mouth the 'belief test'?

 

[MB]

Interestingly enough, Scripture never says we are saved 'by Christ'. So, no I would not agree that we are saved 'by Christ'.

While I am thinking about it, here is a verse which used faith/believe interchangably as a noun/verb expressing the same concept:
Rom 4:3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Abraham's believing was counted for righteousness. one's faith is counted as righteousness.



I missed where it mentioned anything about regeneration. What Scripture establishes that 'sealed by the HS' is the same thing as 'regeneration'?



I am not following where the passage mentions the 'belief test' you described. Is confessing with the mouth the 'belief test'?

Your a ministers son and you have never heard of the test of faith.
1Pe 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
MB

 

[~JM~]

There is an old hymn that expresses it so beautifully:

Amidst the wealth of Bible stores,

And gems the eye of faith explores,

None with such joy and comfort fill,

As Jesus’ cov’nant SHALL and WILL.



Why are not feeble saints destroyed?

Why are not promises made void,

And sin my utter ruin proved?

His SHALLS and WILLS remain unmoved.



The weak become both strong and bold,

While on these words faith keeps her hold;

Mountains must melt and waves be still,

Obeying Jesus’ SHALLS and WILLS.



These potent words subdued my heart,

And made the love of sin depart—

Christ said, ‘My purpose I’ll fulfill,

You SHALL submit, and reign I WILL.’



These words a sov’reign power conveyed,

Confirmed each promise He had made;

My IFS and BUTS I laid aside,

And now in SHALLS and WILLS confide.

 

[dwmoeller1]

Your a ministers son and you have never heard of the test of faith.

You aren't reading what skypair and I are discussing. I said NOTHING about faith not being tested. In fact, part of my argument is grounded on the fact that faith IS tested.

What skypair is arguing is the belief and faith are distinct things and that it is the 'belief test' which results in faith. I am asking her to show in Scripture where the concept of belief (not faith - you and I would see this as being the same thing, but she is making a distinction between the two) being tested is present.

1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

I am glad you bring this verse up again as it indicates that skypairs position on this is wrong. She says that faith comes with/after salvation - yet this verse says that salvation is the *end* of faith. If salvation is the end of faith, then faith must precede salvation.

You and I agree on this - it is skypair with whom you disagree.

 

[MB]

You aren't reading what skypair and I are discussing. I said NOTHING about faith not being tested. In fact, part of my argument is grounded on the fact that faith IS tested. [\quote]
I'm not convinced you understand what Skypair believes at all. Skypair stated that we are saved by Christ. to which you replied;

Interestingly enough, Scripture never says we are saved 'by Christ'.

So Him being called our Lord and Savior has nothing to do with it I suppose?

What skypair is arguing is the belief and faith are distinct things and that it is the 'belief test' which results in faith. I am asking her to show in Scripture where the concept of belief (not faith - you and I would see this as being the same thing, but she is making a distinction between the two) being tested is present.

Are you a Calvinist that believes that he is saved by his own faith? I thought I was in agreement with Calvinist about who's faith we are justified by. Our belief in Christ is why we are granted His faith. His faith is the only faith that is righteous enough to save.
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
This is how and why we aren't saved by what we do but by what Christ does.

I am glad you bring this verse up again as it indicates that skypairs position on this is wrong. She says that faith comes with/after salvation - yet this verse says that salvation is the *end* of faith. If salvation is the end of faith, then faith must precede salvation.

You and I agree on this - it is skypair with whom you disagree.

As I said I don't think you understand what Skypair believes

You said;

Calvinist, nothing. The vast majority of the Christian world sees belief and faith as being essentially synonomous.

Calvinist do see it that way and Calvinist certainly aren't the majority of the Christian world. Belief and faith are two seperate things. Belief is in knowing the knowledge of Christ is true, and Faith is the trust. Men can believe and not have any faith what so ever. In fact most who avoid the light are avoiding the truth because they know it's true but are hoping they are mistaken or, they just don't care. It isn't until we begin to desire righteousness that we become willing to place our trust in Christ.

Simply faith is the action that uses belief.
MB

 

[dwmoeller1]

You aren't reading what skypair and I are discussing. I said NOTHING about faith not being tested. In fact, part of my argument is grounded on the fact that faith IS tested. [\quote]
I'm not convinced you understand what Skypair believes at all. Skypair stated that we are saved by Christ. to which you replied;

So Him being called our Lord and Savior has nothing to do with it I suppose?

I simply state again: Scripture never says we are saved by Christ. Thus, since the discussion is about particular definitions of words (ie. 'by') and since Scripture never uses the concept of 'saved by Christ' in its wording, I must reject her assertion that, Scripturally speaking, we are saved by Christ.

Might we use that phrase in our own way? Certainly. But we are discussing what Scripture says and how it uses the concepts in question.

Are you a Calvinist that believes that he is saved by his own faith? I thought I was in agreement with Calvinist about who's faith we are justified by. Our belief in Christ is why we are granted His faith. His faith is the only faith that is righteous enough to save.

Scripture says we are saved by faith. We agree that this faith is not our own. What Scripture doesn't say is that we are 'saved by Christ'. Is this splitting hairs? Possibly...but since skypairs argument relies on splitting of hairs (ie. distinction between belief and faith), I have no choice but to split hairs along with her to get at the meat of her argument.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
This is how and why we aren't saved by what we do but by what Christ does.

No disagreement there. Again, I submit that you haven't really followed the true gist of the conversation. Do you hold that belief and faith are essentially synonomous? If so, then you should be disagreeing with skypair and not myself. It is skypair who claims that belief leads to salvation (not faith) and that faith comes with/after salvation.

As I said I don't think you understand what Skypair believes

Here are quotes:

Definitely not. BELIEF comes before salvation, but not faith. Faith is the gift given to believers.

Holy Spirit indwelling is what Dr. Rogers called, our "engagement ring" that soon we will be married to Christ in heaven! We get that along with faith the moment we believe of Christ for salvation.

No, faith and justification ("righteousness of God") are given by God at the same time.

So, do you agree with skypair?

Simply faith is the action that uses belief.

Faith is not an action, it is noun.

 

[MB]

I simply state again: Scripture never says we are saved by Christ. Thus, since the discussion is about particular definitions of words (ie. 'by') and since Scripture never uses the concept of 'saved by Christ' in its wording, I must reject her assertion that, Scripturally speaking, we are saved by Christ.

Might we use that phrase in our own way? Certainly. But we are discussing what Scripture says and how it uses the concepts in question.

Scripture may never say it in those terms but it is a fact we are saved by Christ. His actions 2000 years ago is what made it possible. His righteous faith that we are saved by is His and if it weren't given to us we would not be saved. It is by Him that we have Salvation.
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
There is no other way and believing in Him is what gives us the peace with the Father once we have peace then we can wear the righteousness of Christ
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Scripture says we are saved by faith. We agree that this faith is not our own. What Scripture doesn't say is that we are 'saved by Christ'. Is this splitting hairs? Possibly...but since skypairs argument relies on splitting of hairs (ie. distinction between belief and faith), I have no choice but to split hairs along with her to get at the meat of her argument.

No offence but but you seem to be alone in the splitting of hairs here. Your misunderstanding of what faith is, tells me that. Belief is knowing something is true and faith is acting on that belief. This is why faith is also defined as trust.

No disagreement there. Again, I submit that you haven't really followed the true gist of the conversation. Do you hold that belief and faith are essentially synonomous?

Not where belief is the noun and faith is the verb.

If so, then you should be disagreeing with skypair and not myself. It is skypair who claims that belief leads to salvation (not faith) and that faith comes with/after salvation.

Belief does lead to Salvation and scripture says so.
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

So, do you agree with skypair?

I agree that belief and faith are two seperate things in that the first is the noun and the second is the verb

Faith is not an action, it is noun.

Faith is also a verb because to trust is an action. Trusting is acting on your belief.
FAITH, n. [L. fides, fido, to trust; Gr. to persuade, to draw towards any thing, to conciliate; to believe, to obey. In the Greek Lexicon of Hederic it is said, the primitive signification of the verb is to bind and draw or lead, as signifies a rope or cable. But this remark is a little incorrect. The sense of the verb, from which that of rope and binding is derived, is to strain, to draw, and thus to bind or make fast. A rope or cable is that which makes fast. Heb.]
MB

 

[skypair]

While I am thinking about it, here is a verse which used faith/believe interchangably as a noun/verb expressing the same concept:
Rom 4:3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

"Abraham believed ... counted righteous" is the proper definition of "justification." He was saved from that point on but his sanctification was not complete being without the indwelling Spirit.

Abraham's believing was counted for righteousness. one's faith is counted as righteousness.

The only thing about that construct is the as believers, we continue to grow in faith such that the successive faith, not any initial faith, may be in view here.

What would you say that Abraham's initial "belief" was? Wasn't it to pick up and leave Ur? But surely that was not the gospel -- that was as the heathen in Rom 1who believe the God revealed to them and obey, the "belief test," right? A covenant offered and received in Abraham's case.

I missed where it mentioned anything about regeneration. What Scripture establishes that 'sealed by the HS' is the same thing as 'regeneration'?

Sorry -- "sealed" by the Holy Spirit IS regeneration, "born again" of incorruptible seed in biblical parlance.

I am not following where the passage mentions the 'belief test' you described. Is confessing with the mouth the 'belief test'?

Yes, if the confession in your mouth is the belief in your heart. That is what most Baptist churches equate with the sinner's prayer. If one never came to such a decision point of personal repentance and reception of Christ, how could one ever believe they were saved with any degree of certainty?

I find that Calvinists are much less certain of their "election" than I am of my salvation. And they give nebulous proofs like "holy living" or "Lordship salvation" or other evidences that could be "acted out" (washing the outside of the cup) not realizing or maybe are still realizing that the inside is still filthy. Look at Laodicea, dw.

skypair