Elect does not mean "saved at birth"

[webdog]

Is it then theoretically possible that one could "choose" not to sin, and hence not need a Saviour?

Not with a sin nature.

 

[webdog]

Is this what you believe?

Would it be fair to say this about your doctrine on this subject?

"Man is born neither righteous nor unrighteous, holy nor unholy. He has simply the capacity of becoming either.
So...being endowed with reason and free will, he then becomes a sinner when he chooses sin?"

Is this what you are saying?

While I never said that, I believe sin is inevitable. Man is born not guilty. If he were, he would be guilty of the very act of being born, which is far from justice. Man becomes guilty by breaking God's law and statutes.

 

[Jarthur001]

While I never said that, I believe sin is inevitable. Man is born not guilty. If he were, he would be guilty of the very act of being born, which is far from justice. Man becomes guilty by breaking God's law and statutes.

why do you say sin is inevitable?

 

[webdog]

Post 21...

 

[Jarthur001]

While I never said that, I believe sin is inevitable. Man is born not guilty. If he were, he would be guilty of the very act of being born, which is far from justice. Man becomes guilty by breaking God's law and statutes.

sorry....one more thing.

So is it fait to say you believe this...

"Man is born neither righteous nor unrighteous, holy nor unholy. He has simply the capacity of becoming either.
HOWEVER....being endowed with reason and free will, he WILL at sometime become a sinner when he chooses sin?"

Better?

 

[webdog]

"Man is born neither righteous nor unrighteous, holy nor unholy. He has simply the capacity of becoming either.
HOWEVER....being endowed with reason and free will, he WILL at sometime become a sinner when he chooses sin?"

Better?

I'm still not sure about this. I'm leaving work now, but will ponder this later.

 

[Jarthur001]

post removed...but may repost later

 

[canadyjd]

I've never been able to fathom how folks can say, there's one group created by God for perdition, and one for life in heaven with God. They go on to say that God determined to do this before even Adam and Eve were in existence.

Romans 9:18-21 "So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. (19) You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who resisits His will?' (20) On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, 'Why did you makes me like this,' will it? (21) Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use, and another for common use?"

Then they have the gall to say this is God's display of "grace" to the world. Where was Gods grace displayed, and how was it displayed to group #2 who were created for perdition?

Romans 9:22-23 "What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? (23) And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory."

No gall here. Your problem is with God's Word.

Where in Jesus's ministry did He project or communicate to the Jews or world for that matter that God had pre-selected before their very physical birth, those who would be going to hell, and those that were to go to heaven.

John 1:12-13 "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name (13) who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man ("free-will" rejected here in very plain terms) but of (the will of) God. (they are born by the will of God, and then born again (John chp. 3) by the will of God Holy Spirit.)

I just remember Him saying, "Come to me, all you who are heavy laden, I will give you rest.".

He said something else, just prior.

Matt 11:27-28 "All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son, except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father, except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. (28) Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest."

Behold the will of Jesus Christ is determining who will "know" the Father and Himself. Surely "all things" includes the salvation of men's souls, or do you believe Jesus wasn't telling the truth when He said "all things have been handed over to Me by My Father" and then in the next sentence speaks of those who "know" and those who do not know the Father.

Sounds like the whole human race was being called, as there isn't one human being created that doesn't have a burden, or have one and doesn't acknowledge it, just the same. Also, He said, "Come to me". That isn't pre-destination, but a display or indication from Christ that man can come volitionally.

John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out."
John 10:14 "I am the good shepherd; and I know My own, and My own know Me.
John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
John 10:26 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep."

Very clear, at least "some" do not believe because they are not "My sheep". When you consider Jesus had just said His sheep know His voice and will follow Him, it seems clear that all who do not follow are not His sheep.

The whole concept goes against the very public and projected nature of Christ's ministry in the N.T..

As already seen above, this statement is clearly shown to be inaccurate.

peace to youraying:

 

[AresMan]

While I never said that, I believe sin is inevitable. Man is born not guilty. If he were, he would be guilty of the very act of being born, which is far from justice. Man becomes guilty by breaking God's law and statutes.

If sin is inevitable, then does that not conflict with man's "responsibility"? I have seen the argument many times that God would not command man to do something that he is unable to do. If man cannot avoid sin, and it is "inevitable," then according to your logic, man cannot/should not be held responsible: man must have some kind of "libertarian" "free will."
According to the Psalmist, one is a sinner at conception.

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Every person is born (even conceived) dead in tresspasses and sins. Each person is totally responsible because he consciously and willfully commits sin because he is born and conceived as a sinner. One is not a sinner because he sins; one sins because he is a sinner. Every person needs a Saviour.

It's hard to swallow that every person is conceived totally depraved; yet every person is totally responsible for consciously and willfully sinning against God. Don't whine about it; just accept it.

 

[webdog]

If sin is inevitable, then does that not conflict with man's "responsibility"?

Not at all.

I have seen the argument many times that God would not command man to do something that he is unable to do. If man cannot avoid sin, and it is "inevitable," then according to your logic, man cannot/should not be held responsible: man must have some kind of "libertarian" "free will."
According to the Psalmist, one is a sinner at conception.

It's not that man cannot avoid sin, but with their nature, they will inevitably sin, as that is part of the curse. We are not born perfect, we are flawed from birth, but we are sinners once we sin.

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Other translations more accurately state...Psa 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Did you miss "the wicked"? I've never seen a wicked newborn...especially one that could talk, let alone speak lies.

Every person is born (even conceived) dead in tresspasses and sins.

So says original sin...but not Scripture.

Each person is totally responsible because he consciously and willfully commits sin because he is born and conceived as a sinner.

Can you not see how foolish this is? A newborn consciously and willfully committed what sin to be responsible for?

One is not a sinner because he sins; one sins because he is a sinner.

Urban legend along the lines of "God helps those who help themselves". By definition...a sinner is one who commits sin. You are a sinner because you have commited sin to be deemed as such.

It's hard to swallow that every person is conceived totally depraved; yet every person is totally responsible for consciously and willfully sinning against God. Don't whine about it; just accept it.

It is hard to accept any false doctrine.

 

[Rippon]

On the contrary Mr.Dog , it is very easy for many to accept false doctrine . Thankfully the elect will not be swayed ..."even if it were possible..."

So you want the passages from Ps.51:5 ; 58:3 ; Is.48:8 to mean something other than which they plainly state ? And you also want Eph. 2:1-3 and Col. 2:13 to be twisted as well ?

The mountain of biblical evidence is against you ... again .

 

[webdog]

Hardly. Proper exegesis of the Scripture IN CONTEXT is HIGHLY in my favor Mr. Pon.

You are right...jewish believers won't be swayed by false doctrine.

 

[Rippon]

WD , are you contending that Matthew 24:24 relates to Jews only ? You are again against the Scriptures . Christ's elect ones consist of only those He has chosen from before the foundation of the world -- both from the Gentiles and the Jews . Making this verse ( and by extention all other verses dealing with the elect -- the chosen , sheep , saints , His possession , His Church , His Bride etc. ) apply only to Jewish people is wrong to the enith degree .

for false christs and false prophets will appear and display great signs and wonders to deceive , if possible , even the elect . ( ISV )

 

[webdog]

WD , are you contending that Matthew 24:24 relates to Jews only ? You are again against the Scriptures . Christ's elect ones consist of only those He has chosen from before the foundation of the world -- both from the Gentiles and the Jews . Making this verse ( and by extention all other verses dealing with the elect -- the chosen , sheep , saints , His possession , His Church , His Bride etc. ) apply only to Jewish people is wrong to the enith degree .

for false christs and false prophets will appear and display great signs and wonders to deceive , if possible , even the elect . ( ISV )

I never said His possession, His Church, and His Bride all refer to believing jews. Every time the "elect" is used in dealing with humans (as there are also elect angels), it is referring to true Israel.

 

[skypair]

Every person is born (even conceived) dead in tresspasses and sins. Each person is totally responsible because he consciously and willfully commits sin because he is born and conceived as a sinner. One is not a sinner because he sins; one sins because he is a sinner. Every person needs a Saviour.

It's hard to swallow that every person is conceived totally depraved; yet every person is totally responsible for consciously and willfully sinning against God. Don't whine about it; just accept it.

Not only "hard to swallow" but untrue --- an untenable INTERPRETATION. The "seed" of sin has been "planted," the "flesh." Within the flesh at birth is the sin nature in the form of "survival instinct."

Sin comes when we knowingly demand our WANTS be met rather than our NEEDS. Do you see that? Up to a certain age, survival instinct helped you get what you NEEDED. Born as a sinner is a good PROSPECTIVE statement because our behavioral means of getting what we NEED are willfully perverted to get what we WANT --- what doesn't belong to us. VIOLA! Sin.

This is the more contemporary, free will understanding of those verses you cite.

skypair

 

[canadyjd]

Not only "hard to swallow" but untrue --- an untenable INTERPRETATION. The "seed" of sin has been "planted," the "flesh." Within the flesh at birth is the sin nature in the form of "survival instinct."

Where do you find biblical support for the "survival instinct" theology?

Sin comes when we knowingly demand our WANTS be met rather than our NEEDS. Do you see that? Up to a certain age, survival instinct helped you get what you NEEDED. Born as a sinner is a good PROSPECTIVE statement because our behavioral means of getting what we NEED are willfully perverted to get what we WANT --- what doesn't belong to us. VIOLA! Sin.

That is simply not the biblical definition of sin. If you change the meaning of the words, it is impossible to have the correct understanding of the passage.

This is the more contemporary, free will understanding of those verses you cite.

Probably. But it isn't a correct understanding of the verses cited.

peace to youraying:

 

[J.D.]

Romans 9:18-21 "So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. (19) You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who resisits His will?' (20) On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, 'Why did you makes me like this,' will it? (21) Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use, and another for common use?"

Romans 9:22-23 "What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? (23) And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory."

No gall here. Your problem is with God's Word.

John 1:12-13 "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name (13) who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man ("free-will" rejected here in very plain terms) but of (the will of) God. (they are born by the will of God, and then born again (John chp. 3) by the will of God Holy Spirit.)


He said something else, just prior.

Matt 11:27-28 "All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son, except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father, except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. (28) Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest."

Behold the will of Jesus Christ is determining who will "know" the Father and Himself. Surely "all things" includes the salvation of men's souls, or do you believe Jesus wasn't telling the truth when He said "all things have been handed over to Me by My Father" and then in the next sentence speaks of those who "know" and those who do not know the Father.

John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out."
John 10:14 "I am the good shepherd; and I know My own, and My own know Me.
John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
John 10:26 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep."

Very clear, at least "some" do not believe because they are not "My sheep". When you consider Jesus had just said His sheep know His voice and will follow Him, it seems clear that all who do not follow are not His sheep.

As already seen above, this statement is clearly shown to be inaccurate.

peace to youraying:

Great posting Canadyjd! I admire you guys that can deal with Skypair. I can't even understand what he's saying most of the time.

 

[npetreley]

I can't even understand what he's saying most of the time.

That's because you're too busy studying Calvin and not Pelagius.

 

[Dale-c]

Great posting Canadyjd! I admire you guys that can deal with Skypair. I can't even understand what he's saying most of the time.

Neither can I!

 

[skypair]

Where do you find biblical support for the "survival instinct" theology?

Thanks for asking that, canady. It comes from the "curse." Everything in earth was cursed so that mankind had, for the first time, to fend for himself. Obviously, Adam and Eve were sustained by God before the fall in every way. All their "wants" were "legal" except the eating of the forbidden fruit, right?

Survival instinct was introduced by the fall. Every animal has it. There is nothing inherently sinful about it.

That is simply not the biblical definition of sin. If you change the meaning of the words, it is impossible to have the correct understanding of the passage.

Right, wanting is not sinning. But it is temptation to sin such that we "lust conceived unto sin performed into death." Take out the "wanting"/lust and sin never comes. And where did the lust come from? It is just a desire for something God hasn't provided.

skypair