And, as usual, the gist of the thread drifted. My statement in context had nothing to do with your "response."
Of course you can't answer it! You know it is true!
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Elect or Non-elect?
- Thread starter Pastor_Bob
- Start date
- Status
Better look in the mirror. You constantly take the words of posters out of context so that you will have a pretext to distort their views.But I should have expected you to take my statement out of context. You do that a lot. Even with the bible.
What are you talking about final condition rather then first?
What happened to one saved always saved?
Why does the devil have to be involved in absolutely anything at all?
"The election is God's. Not our doing"
You got a great case if you prove what GOD COMMANDS is not what GOD WANTS.
Anyone who has the wrong idea about God being a cold shoulder and evil has an easy time believing him to be deceptive
I heard him command ALL to LOVE GOD AND NEIGHBOR, Commands ALL not to sin. His choice sounds clear enough to me.
You have to be one can short of a six pack if you don't know what God wants after he commands it.
37818
Well-Known Member
The finial condition of the non-elect.
OSAS better referred to as God does the saving does the keeping.
The elect are the ones whom God has secured their salvation, and in time they believe and are regenerated.
Now I hold the view that everyone is in the book of life from eternity. And the non-elect are the ones who resist the Holy Spirit and so are not sanctified and so do not believe and so are are not save (Romans 3:11; Revelation 20:15). The elect are the ones who believe (Ephesians 1:4; 1 Peter 1:1-2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14; 1 John 5:4; Revelation 3:5; Revelation 21:7).
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Take a look at this and tell me what you think:
"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." ( Revelation 13:8 )
" The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is." ( Revelation 17:8 )
May He bless you in your studies.
37818
Well-Known Member
It is a simple fact if one's name is removed from the book of life, that name would not have been written "from" the foundation of the world. Compare Luke 11:50 who where killed from the foundation of the world and Hebrews 9:26 Christ would have had to die over and over again from (translated as since) the foundation of the world. I understand "from" meaning in time after the foundation of the world. As opposed to before the foundation of the world, being before creation (Ephesians 1:4; John 17:24; 1 Peter 1:20).
I am not a Calvinist. Nor am I of the Arminianism view point.
Last edited:
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I think I see where you are going, but, thus far, I don't agree.
From my perspective, how can a name be removed that was never written?
Do you see Scripture stating, without doubt, that all names were written in the Book of Life?
If so, where?
I believe I've just shown Scripture that indicates that there are some people whose names were not written...at all.
I think Revelation 13:8 is clearer...they were not written in the Book of Life of the Lamb, slain from the foundation of the world ( means, to me, that His dying was forecast from the beginning of the world, 1 Peter 1:20 ).
Secondly, if you are not "Calvinist", and you are not "Arminian", then I would think that you would believe none of the things either "side" teaches.
In your estimation ( short version, please ) what view of salvation do you hold, if you don't mind indulging my curiosity?
Last edited:
What verse, or verses, prove this?
37818
Well-Known Member
There is what the holy scriptures explicitly teach. And there is how those teachings are interpreted.
The first reference to the book can be understood as Exodus 32:32-33.
Then there is the reference in Psalm 69:27-28.
Now in the judgement, the reason given for those who perish is that their names are not written in the book of life, Revelation 20:15.
Fact, nowhere are we told how, when or why those name were written in the first place. It is often supposed that it is done do to being saved.
Now there are some promises, ". . . For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith. . . ." -- 1 John 5:4.
Now one of the 8 promises in Revelation reads, ". . . He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, . . ." -- Revelation 3:5.
Now please keep what the text says in mind and keep my explanations separate.
Now note the promise is not to in any way remove the overcomer's name out of the book. The implication being, the non-overcomers have their names blotted out.
Again, nowhere are we told when, how or why they are there. That is interpretation.
Now we have this promise, ". . . According as Ue hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, . . ." -- Ephesians 1:4.
Now it can be interpreted that the elect also have their names in the book before the foundation of the world.
And those who names have not been written, it says "from" the foundation of the world.
Here is where I am coming from. Names are written before the foundation of the world. Names of the non-elect having not been written from the foundation of the world. Names of the elect are not blotted out.
before < | foundation | > from.
Now a parallel example is Jesus being the true vine. Now with the understanding everyone is in the vine.
Those who do not abide/remain in Christ are removed (John 15:6; 1 John 3:6). And the saved having eternal life know God (John 17:3; 1 John 5:12; 2 John 1:9).
I left much out. Keep in mind what the scriptures explicitly teach versus what is understood or interpreted to mean. Count and note the assumptions made.
Thank you.
37818
Well-Known Member
What verses teach when, how and why names are in the book? Revelation has a promise not to blot a name out (Revelation 3:5). Implication can be understood that those who do not overcome (1 John 5:4) get one's name removed. Let us identify assumptions and separate them from what the scripture explicitly says. Interpretation often makes some.
I see verses like Revelation 3:5 more as an affirmation of their salvation. Those who persevere to the end are indeed saved. However, it is not by our own doing(strength) that helps us to remain saved. Philippinas 1:6 states He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion unto the day of Jesus Christ. It's called progressive sanctification.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Firstly, if by the word "interpretation" you mean, "understanding", then I agree.
Many people hold similar understandings to mine when it comes to God's word...many do not.
I think we could make a whole thread out of this subject of the Book of Life.
Start one and I'll probably chime in at some point, as long as it is profitable to our mutual edification.
I understand where you're currently coming from, and have even suspected much of what you've written...but again, I disagree, at least for the time being; until I've had time to weigh Scripture on the subject..
For now, when I read the Bible, I come to the conclusion that God has many books:
" I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment [was] white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was [like] the fiery flame, [and] his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened." ( Daniel 7:9-10 )
" And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." ( Revelation 20:11-15 )
....one of which is:
the Book of Life.
Another is the Book of the Living ( Exodus 32:32-33, Psalms 69:27-28 ), a book of those whose earthly lives, and the span of those days, is written.
Then there are the many books of the works of men.
To me, the subject of being blotted out of books is one that has very little Scriptural support, and I believe for good reason:
If God wanted believers to know more about it, I think He would have given His children more information to go on ( but that is presumptuous on my part ).
From what I have seen in the Bible, there is very little.
Perhaps that is the point:
From my perspective, God operates on something I sometimes call, "need to know"...or at least "Things He wants His children to know".
Since this isn't developed, it might be that He wants us to dwell on the things that He does give more information, and to remember this:
" Of these things put [them] in remembrance, charging [them] before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, [but] to the subverting of the hearers." ( 2 Timothy 2:14 ) <---- Fighting and bickering about topics to no profit is something the Lord does not want us to do.
" But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes." ( 2 Timothy 2:23 ) <----- "Gender strifes" means, in modern English, to produce or incite fighting, bickering and quarrels.
Finally, I've personally seen what those who believe in loss of salvation do with the little that He does declare about "blotting".
Last edited:
37818
Well-Known Member
Do you hold the view of progressive sanctification? I hold the view that sanctification precedes repentance and faith. Revelation 3:5 has the promise of never blotting the overcomer's name from the book. Again the implication being the non-overcomers will have their name blotted out. That is how I understand this.
37818
Well-Known Member
Yes, there are other books which are referred to. Such as Psalm 139:16. I will give thought as to how to present this in another thread as you suggested. Thanks.Firstly, if by the word "interpretation" you mean, "understanding", then I agree.
Many people hold similar understandings to mine when it comes to God's word...many do not.
I think we could make a whole thread out of this subject of the Book of Life.
Start one and I'll probably chime in at some point, as long as it is profitable to our mutual edification.
I understand where you're currently coming from, and have even suspected much of what you've written...but again, I disagree, at least for the time being; until I've had time to weigh Scripture on the subject..
For now, when I read the Bible, I come to the conclusion that God has many books:
" I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment [was] white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was [like] the fiery flame, [and] his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened." ( Daniel 7:9-10 )
" And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." ( Revelation 20:11-15 )
....one of which is:
the Book of Life.
Another is the Book of the Living ( Exodus 32:32-33, Psalms 69:27-28 ), a book of those whose earthly lives, and the span of those days, is written.
Then there are the many books of the works of men.
To me, the subject of being blotted out of books is one that has very little Scriptural support, and I believe for good reason:
If God wanted believers to know more about it, I think He would have given His children more information to go on ( but that is presumptuous on my part ).
From what I have seen in the Bible, there is very little.
Perhaps that is the point:
From my perspective, God operates on something I sometimes call, "need to know"...or at least "Things He wants His children to know".
Since this isn't developed, it might be that He wants us to dwell on the things that He does give more information, and to remember this:
" Of these things put [them] in remembrance, charging [them] before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, [but] to the subverting of the hearers." ( 2 Timothy 2:14 ) <---- Fighting and bickering about topics to no profit is something the Lord does not want us to do.
" But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes." ( 2 Timothy 2:23 ) <----- "Gender strifes" means, in modern English, to produce or incite fighting, bickering and quarrels.
Finally, I've personally seen what those who believe in loss of salvation do with the little that He does declare about "blotting".
Revelation 20:15 does make it clear regarding this one book. Not have one's name blotted out (Revelation 3:5) seems to refer to this one book.
They are non-elect.
IMO, before the Lord even created the world ...
He saw who loved Him enough to actually obey Him
(see the 4 verses in John 14), and these were chosen
to be His elect (from among all of the BACs and others).
Do you disagree with the names being in the Book then remp
"from" is not the foundation of time but "in front of" as everyone can see the speaker at a rally, Christ death is evident to the entire world. "from the foundation of the world " is often used for illustrate Jesus's death but never to "names"
Please clarify this so I can better answer you. Thanks a bushel.
Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. (KJV)
I thought you all might be interested in this sermon called The Parable Of The Sower by Spurgeon... Brother Glen
https://www.spurgeongems.org/vols4-6/chs308.pdf
Last edited:
We only know the names are in the Book, and then names will not be blotted as a promise to those who overcome.. understanding the reverse that if one doe not overcome.. then names are blotted out... then another verse mentions .. names are not found in the Book. We never read of names being added to the Book.
- Status