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Elected to be lost
- Thread starter saturneptune
- Start date
npetreley said:That's because you're getting some of the finer details wrong regarding choice. Regardless, Romans 9 does say almost the same thing. You keep posing the same basic question, "Why does He still find fault, for who resists His will?" But it seems like you're not willing to accept the scriptural answer.
I think the key is that Romans 9 says almost the same thing. It doesn't say exactly what I hear the Reformed folks sort of beating around the bush about. They seem to want to have it both ways - that we are responsible for doing wrong, but have no capability to do right. You can't have one without the other.
Les
reformedbeliever
New Member
Rippon said:All those who hold to double predestination are not hyper-Calvinists . You would be eliminating an awful lot of true Calvinists if that were the case .
And I stand corrected. Thank you sir. I lean toward supralapsarianism.... its just that I can't really say i'm either. I think that through the providence of God, we will always choose in a manner that is consistent with God's decreed will. Is that leaning towards supra? I don't think we can choose in a manner that will be inconsistent with God's decreed will.
reformedbeliever said:That is because we are not giving the answer that you seem to think that reformed theology teaches. You have a wrong idea of what reformed theology teaches. Some (hyper calvinist) teach what you are wanting us to tell you. I do not hold to double predestination. I believe that God is able (through His providence) to cause all things to happen according to His plan, yet He is not responsible for tempting man or causing man to sin. If you do not understand providence ( and I can not fully understand it.... re: rjprince's son dying of a brain tumor) then I suggest you do a search through Wikipedia or Theopedia or the such. There are many articles on providence just by searching through Google.... although I'd be very careful there.
God's providence is a mystery. He gives us examples in the story of Joseph. (What men meant for evil God meant for good.) We can look to the story of Job. God's providence is one subject that would probably make a great thread. Why don't you start this thread Les?
It may be that I have a wrong view, that's what I'm trying to sort out. So far it is not making sense to me. God's providence is certainly interesting and mysterious, but I don't think that is what we talking about here.
It seems you want to make man helpless and yet responsible at the same time and that is what doesn't make sense to me and where I see Reformed theology breaking down.
Les
reformedbeliever
New Member
lbaker said:It may be that I have a wrong view, that's what I'm trying to sort out. So far it is not making sense to me. God's providence is certainly interesting and mysterious, but I don't think that is what we talking about here.
It seems you want to make man helpless and yet responsible at the same time and that is what doesn't make sense to me and where I see Reformed theology breaking down.
Les
I'll assure you that I don't make man anything. I've given Scripture to back what I believe. Refute that Scripture if you want to. It matters not what I believe. What matters is what Scripture says.
Well, Scripture is clear- no man comes to the Son unless the Father draws him.
A funny story I think I've told here before - There's a couple that are old friends of our family. She was saved, he was not. After years of praying for him - counseling him, teaching him, the husband STILL refused Christ. Finally, my pastor said to him "You know, I think you just might not be one of the elect. I guess you just CAN'T be saved." LOL - Of course, that got him thinking and he DID turn his heart to the Lord and has been an amazing man of God ever since.
All that I know is that man is going to hell in a handbasket and God, in His sovereignty, has chosen those who will be saved. Is He condemning man to hell when it's not their fault? That would be unfair, wouldn't it? Is God unfair? No - He can't be. But we have such limited minds and cannot comprehend what God's purposes are OR how He works everything.
The most important thing in my mind:
What is the state of my heart towards the Lord?
Am I trying to reach others for Him? It's not my responsibility to save them but to be faithful in spreading the Gospel and knowing that God will allow that seed to take hold in some. I don't know who will be saved so I just figure that it's my job to be sure that everyone hears so I don't miss anyone.
Hope that makes sense.
A funny story I think I've told here before - There's a couple that are old friends of our family. She was saved, he was not. After years of praying for him - counseling him, teaching him, the husband STILL refused Christ. Finally, my pastor said to him "You know, I think you just might not be one of the elect. I guess you just CAN'T be saved." LOL - Of course, that got him thinking and he DID turn his heart to the Lord and has been an amazing man of God ever since.
All that I know is that man is going to hell in a handbasket and God, in His sovereignty, has chosen those who will be saved. Is He condemning man to hell when it's not their fault? That would be unfair, wouldn't it? Is God unfair? No - He can't be. But we have such limited minds and cannot comprehend what God's purposes are OR how He works everything.
The most important thing in my mind:
What is the state of my heart towards the Lord?
Am I trying to reach others for Him? It's not my responsibility to save them but to be faithful in spreading the Gospel and knowing that God will allow that seed to take hold in some. I don't know who will be saved so I just figure that it's my job to be sure that everyone hears so I don't miss anyone.
Hope that makes sense.
reformedbeliever said:I'll assure you that I don't make man anything. I've given Scripture to back what I believe. Refute that Scripture if you want to. It matters not what I believe. What matters is what Scripture says.
Amen. Soli Deo Gloria.
lbaker said:I think the key is that Romans 9 says almost the same thing. It doesn't say exactly what I hear the Reformed folks sort of beating around the bush about. They seem to want to have it both ways - that we are responsible for doing wrong, but have no capability to do right. You can't have one without the other.
That passage in Romans 9 addresses exactly the fact that you can have one without the other. It says, "Why does He still blame us, for who resists His will?" The question clearly states the problem from the perspective of the person who cannot do right, yet is still being held responsible for the fact that he does wrong.
Then you get your answer, which you still don't seem to accept.