Elected to be lost

[reformedbeliever]

How do you know that?

How can they be in their unbelief willingly if God gives them no choice to believe and makes them such that they can't believe?

Les

God gives them choice...and it is their choice that damns them. God did not make them to where they could not believe....... man did that.

I'll use this illustration. God puts a button on the wall and says if you want to be saved push the button. Man complains that God has built a plexiglass shield around the button so that he can not push it. It was not God who built the barrier, but man himself. Man constructs the barriers, not God.

 

[reformedbeliever]

So it was possible for them to have chosen to believe and be saved?

Les

Of course it was possible for them to choose.... but they would not choose affirmatively. That is why God has to change man's nature..... (we are by nature children of wrath).... in order for them to believe.

 

[lbaker]

God gives them choice...and it is their choice that damns them. God did not make them to where they could not believe....... man did that.

I'll use this illustration. God puts a button on the wall and says if you want to be saved push the button. Man complains that God has built a plexiglass shield around the button so that he can not push it. It was not God who built the barrier, but man himself. Man constructs the barriers, not God.

How can make himself such that he can't believe? Man does not create man, God creates man.

If man is created such that only by God's election can he believe, that doesn't give him much choice, does it?

Les

 

[lbaker]

Of course it was possible for them to choose.... but they would not choose affirmatively. That is why God has to change man's nature..... (we are by nature children of wrath).... in order for them to believe.

But if man cannot choose affirmatively, without election, then that is actually no choice at all.

Les

 

[npetreley]

So it was possible for them to have chosen to believe and be saved?

To use an illustration someone else cited, it's just as possible for a vulture to eat the grain in the field rather than starve. It's purely academic, since the vulture won't do it.

 

[reformedbeliever]

But if man cannot choose affirmatively, without election, then that is actually no choice at all.

Les

Election to salvation is more readily translated as a rescue. If you fall off a cliff, can you choose to not fall? We have all fallen off the cliff. God saves some. Its His choice.... and He does save some. Of all that He chooses to save, they readily wrap their arms around their Savior. The rest are content to fall.

 

[reformedbeliever]

But if man cannot choose affirmatively, without election, then that is actually no choice at all.

Les

Les, there are some who choose to beleive.... even some who want to be saved... but are unwilling to follow Christ. The things of the world are what they prefer. They want fire insurance, but don't wanna have to pay for it. God has to change a person's nature in order for someone to follow Christ (they must be born again). They are born again of God, not an exercise of their will. Belief is an exercise of the will. John 1:13 says we are born not of flesh or blood or the will of man, but of God. It is He who causes us to be born again. 1 Peter 1: 3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

 

[lbaker]

To use an illustration someone else cited, it's just as possible for a vulture to eat the grain in the field rather than starve. It's purely academic, since the vulture won't do it.

But if the vulture is made so that he absolutely won't eat grain (a fact I'm not at all sure of, BTW) then he really has no choice in the matter. In the same way, a man who is made so that he cannot choose God still has no choice in the matter.

If we are going to say that a man has the ability to choose God, or not, then we have to allow for the possiblity that he will. Otherwise we are just playing with words.

Les

 

[reformedbeliever]

But if the vulture is made so that he absolutely won't eat grain (a fact I'm not at all sure of, BTW) then he really has no choice in the matter. In the same way, a man who is made so that he cannot choose God still has no choice in the matter.

If we are going to say that a man has the ability to choose God, or not, then we have to allow for the possiblity that he will. Otherwise we are just playing with words.

Les

Les, lets say you despise beef liver. Lets say it makes you violently ill. Now you have a choice to have beef liver or steak. Which will you choose? Did you have a real choice? We can argue this all day. In the end... lets not allow our human determination of what we think is right or just to be the authority on what we believe. Lets allow Scripture to give us the light that is our authority.

 

[lbaker]

Election to salvation is more readily translated as a rescue. If you fall off a cliff, can you choose to not fall? We have all fallen off the cliff. God saves some. Its His choice.... and He does save some. Of all that He chooses to save, they readily wrap their arms around their Savior. The rest are content to fall.

I'm not so sure about those being content to fall.

Your scenario breaks down in one point, we don't choose to fall off the cliff. We are born falling, never had a chance to not fall off, according to Reformed thinking.
So, we are still stuck with folks being put into a situation they had no choice in, and being tortured eternally for it.

Les

 

[reformedbeliever]

I'm not so sure about those being content to fall.

Your scenario breaks down in one point, we don't choose to fall off the cliff. We are born falling, never had a chance to not fall off, according to Reformed thinking.
So, we are still stuck with folks being put into a situation they had no choice in, and being tortured eternally for it.

Les

Les, if we allow our human sense of justice to be our authority over Scripture we will fail. You have asked questions and I have given Scriptural answers. We can argue all day about what we feel God should dispose of His creation. In the end, it is what God says that matters.

 

[lbaker]

Les, there are some who choose to beleive.... even some who want to be saved... but are unwilling to follow Christ. The things of the world are what they prefer. They want fire insurance, but don't wanna have to pay for it. God has to change a person's nature in order for someone to follow Christ (they must be born again). They are born again of God, not an exercise of their will. Belief is an exercise of the will. John 1:13 says we are born not of flesh or blood or the will of man, but of God. It is He who causes us to be born again. 1 Peter 1: 3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Now this sounds like it is a system based on merit, according to how willing someone is to follow Christ. There's no way any of us could "pay" for it! Sounds like you are putting the burden on us to earn salvation now - I know that's not what you mean but that's what it sounds like.

Wait, okay, now you are back on the track of God having to change our will, or nature, before we can be saved. Well we are back where we started it looks like. If we cannot be saved without God's election, then it doesn't really matter what our attitude is does it? The extent of our willingness to follow Christ doesn't really come into the equation then does it?

Les

 

[npetreley]

Wait, okay, now you are back on the track of God having to change our will, or nature, before we can be saved. Well we are back where we started it looks like. If we cannot be saved without God's election, then it doesn't really matter what our attitude is does it? The extent of our willingness to follow Christ doesn't really come into the equation then does it?

Exactly. We are not the hinge and turning point of our own salvation.

 

[AAA]

It is almost like he believes he is not one of the elect, and is not worried about it. My question is, is it possible for a non-elect person to know he is not going to be saved, actually know it, and just live life without concern?

Yes, it is possible for this person never to feel concern about thier own soul and/or salvation, because the carnal men with a wicked heart CAN'T understand the thing of the SPIRIT, nor do such people care too.

 

[lbaker]

Les, if we allow our human sense of justice to be our authority over Scripture we will fail. You have asked questions and I have given Scriptural answers. We can argue all day about what we feel God should dispose of His creation. In the end, it is what God says that matters.

Well I am certainly not trying to sit in judgement of God and say what He should do, or not do.

What I am trying to do is get a straight answer as to what those who hold to Calvinist, or Reformed, if you prefer, theology believe.

It seems to me that your theology has God making us in such a way that we cannot believe, and then holding us eternally accountable for something we had no choice in. But, I haven't been able to get any of you to come right out and say that.

Les

 

[npetreley]

It seems to me that your theology has God making us in such a way that we cannot believe, and then holding us eternally accountable for something we had no choice in. But, I haven't been able to get any of you to come right out and say that.

That's because you're getting some of the finer details wrong regarding choice. Regardless, Romans 9 does say almost the same thing. You keep posing the same basic question, "Why does He still find fault, for who resists His will?" But it seems like you're not willing to accept the scriptural answer.

 

[rjprince]

But, ultimately, if Adam was somehow able to spiritually/genetically change us because of his sin, was it not God that gave him that ability? There's no indication of Adam making some decision to purposefully take away our free will, is there? How could Adam change the makeup of mankind by himself?

Les

Just not sure how to balance it all out. Yes, God made Adam with a free moral will. By Adam's sin, he plunged all of humanity into a sinful condition, all are sinners, all die. Apart from God's grace, none would be saved. I can only tell you what I understand the Scripture to teach. I can not tell you why God would do it that way.

Point blank, there are a lot of things that I would do differently, if I were God. It is not my task to understand Him. It my task to love and serve Him, even when His plan is that my son die with a brain tumor (www.matthewprince.net). You see, it is not all academic with me. Some of it is very up close and very personal. I do not have to understand all He does, I just have to decide whether or not I am going to trust Him in all he does.

 

[rjprince]

BTW, I am not looking for sympathy here. If you feel led to pray for us, thanks. I just wanted to make you aware that I have wrestled with this matter of God's sovereignty at a level that I pray most here will never have to face.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Well I am certainly not trying to sit in judgement of God and say what He should do, or not do.

What I am trying to do is get a straight answer as to what those who hold to Calvinist, or Reformed, if you prefer, theology believe.

It seems to me that your theology has God making us in such a way that we cannot believe, and then holding us eternally accountable for something we had no choice in. But, I haven't been able to get any of you to come right out and say that.

Les

That is because we are not giving the answer that you seem to think that reformed theology teaches. You have a wrong idea of what reformed theology teaches. Some (hyper calvinist) teach what you are wanting us to tell you. I do not hold to double predestination. I believe that God is able (through His providence) to cause all things to happen according to His plan, yet He is not responsible for tempting man or causing man to sin. If you do not understand providence ( and I can not fully understand it.... re: rjprince's son dying of a brain tumor) then I suggest you do a search through Wikipedia or Theopedia or the such. There are many articles on providence just by searching through Google.... although I'd be very careful there.
God's providence is a mystery. He gives us examples in the story of Joseph. (What men meant for evil God meant for good.) We can look to the story of Job. God's providence is one subject that would probably make a great thread. Why don't you start this thread Les?

 

[lbaker]

Exactly. We are not the hinge and turning point of our own salvation.

But, it really goes further than that doesn't it? We really have absolutely nothing at all to say about it, but there are eternal consequences.

Les