Elected to be lost

[rjprince]

I was speaking from the perspective of a free-willer. Regardless, if God desires all men to be saved, yet some perish, then God did not achieve what He desired. Either He was unwilling to make it happen, or He was unable to make it happen.

I suppose one can wiggle out of this by saying that God has a greater, overriding desire that men will be sovereign over their own eternal destinies, but where is the scripture to support that this is His will, and that this particular will overrides His desire that all be saved?

When my alarm clock went off at 5:30 this morning my desire was to sleep for another hour or so, but to accomplish my purpose of being at the hospital with a child and family in our church for his surgery this morning, I only got to hit the snooze button twice. I did not want to get up, but I chose to get to accomplish a purpose.

If God's purpose in creation were salvific (the saving of all men, or as many as He could get), we could then say that God's purpose was thwarted by the will of man. IF, on the other hand, God's purpose in creation is doxological (His glory), then we are free to acknowledge that although God desires the salvation of all, He does not insure the salvation of all, because that is not His OVERALL plan.

Here is a quick summary of my position on God's purpose and I will check back later...

God purpose in creation is to reveal His glory to all of creation and to share His glory with those whom He has chosen...

Man will never frustrate the sovereign will of God, but God does not always override the rebellion of man's free will in the accomplishment of His purpose. Believers come to Him because He changes their heart, not because any of us have a heart that is more predisposed to righteousness....

 

[rjprince]

I believe free-willers would argue that we're just sick. That's why they're actually semi-pelagians.

Some do and I have some very CLEAR Scripture in that regard...

Let them then argue with God, not me...

 

[lbaker]

No. God can dispose of His creation as He sees fit. He is the potter, we are the clay. Men are responsible for their own actions/choices.

How can "clay" be responsible for actions/choices that they aren't free to make?

Les

 

[lbaker]

GOD DID NOT MAKE US IN SUCH A WAY THAT WE ARE UNABLE TO RESPOND!!! ADAM DID.

So does this make Adam our Creator?

Les

 

[rjprince]

So does this make Adam our Creator?

Les

God created Adam. Adam and Eve procreated us. God did not make anyone a sinner. Adam and Eve were created in "unconfirmed creature holiness" or innocence. When Adam sinned, he plunged himself and all of his future posterity into a fallen sinful condition. Even in this fallen sinful condition, some elements of God's image are still seen in us.

God created Adam a free moral agent with a free will. Adam had the capacity to not sin. Because he did sin and because we are his offspring, we DO NOT have the capacity to not sin.

(meeting has not started yet, can chat for a while!)

 

[lbaker]

God created Adam a free moral agent with a free will. Adam had the capacity to not sin. Because he did sin and because we are his offspring, we DO NOT have the capacity to not sin.

(meeting has not started yet, can chat for a while!)

But, ultimately, if Adam was somehow able to spiritually/genetically change us because of his sin, was it not God that gave him that ability? There's no indication of Adam making some decision to purposefully take away our free will, is there? How could Adam change the makeup of mankind by himself?

Les

 

[reformedbeliever]

How can "clay" be responsible for actions/choices that they aren't free to make?

Les

Are you asking me or God? I simply quoted Scripture. The Scripture used in that illustration is simply showing us that God (the Creator) has the right to make us (mankind corporally or individually) in the manner He sees fit. Just as the potter can make a vessel unto honor or unto dishonor. Yes, this goes against our pride..... hense Paul's answer to the objection in Romans 9.

 

[lbaker]

Are you asking me or God? I simply quoted Scripture. The Scripture used in that illustration is simply showing us that God (the Creator) has the right to make us (mankind corporally or individually) in the manner He sees fit. Just as the potter can make a vessel unto honor or unto dishonor. Yes, this goes against our pride..... hense Paul's answer to the objection in Romans 9.

So are you saying that we have no ability to make choices as to whether to follow God or not?

Les

 

[npetreley]

How can "clay" be responsible for actions/choices that they aren't free to make?

Les

In other words, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?”

20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory

 

[reformedbeliever]

So are you saying that we have no ability to make choices as to whether to follow God or not?

Les

If by "follow God" you mean seek God, then no. In the unregenerate (lost) state, man does not seek God. Romans 3:10. As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;
11. there is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God.

 

[lbaker]

In other words, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?”

Are you saying that God deliberately creates people for the purpose of eternal torture, and that they have no choice, no hope?

Les

 

[lbaker]

If by "follow God" you mean seek God, then no. In the unregenerate (lost) state, man does not seek God. Romans 3:10. As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;
11. there is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God.

But man is held accountable for not seeking God when he is unable to do so, and tortured forever as a result?

Les

 

[reformedbeliever]

Are you saying that God deliberately creates people for the purpose of eternal torture, and that they have no choice, no hope?

Les

Let me ask you something Les. Does God know who will and who will not receive Christ? I think you will answer yes.
Does God allow those who He knows will never receive Christ come into existence, knowing that they will spend eternity in hell?
If God knows who will never come to faith (He does) can they come to faith? If God knows they will never come to faith, then they will never come to faith... or God is not all knowing.

 

[reformedbeliever]

But man is held accountable for not seeking God when he is unable to do so, and tortured forever as a result?

Les

There is no such thing as a non elect person who is just dying to know Christ. They are not out there saying "oh how I wish I could be saved." They are in their sin willingly. They are in their unbelief willingly.

 

[Brother Bob]

rjprince posts
24 no scripture
34 ditto
35 ditto
36 ditto
37 ditto
39 ditto
41 ditto
42 ditto
45 ditto

Not one scripture in all these post and then you post this to me? I could of went back farther but no need.

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
Who predestined the "elect" and who predestined hell to hold all of the "non-elect", if your theology is true.

The end result being according to Calvinism, God chose the "elect" and turned his back to the "non-elect" and let them fall as you say right into hell.

You can't have it both ways and if Calvinism is true, I doubt if God would deny He prepared hell for all the non-elect.

rjprince;

Sorry, I missed your Bible reference on that...

Don't argue the label, argue the statement... with Scripture, please]

If you going to give rules, at least abide by them yourself!!

 

[npetreley]

Are you saying that God deliberately creates people for the purpose of eternal torture

Paul suggested that they are vessels prepared for destruction. Argue with scripture, not me.

and that they have no choice, no hope?

This is a different issue. They have a choice, and they choose according to their nature. Just like you and I did before God changed our hearts.

 

[lbaker]

Let me ask you something Les. Does God know who will and who will not receive Christ? I think you will answer yes.
Does God allow those who He knows will never receive Christ come into existence, knowing that they will spend eternity in hell?
If God knows who will never come to faith (He does) can they come to faith? If God knows they will never come to faith, then they will never come to faith... or God is not all knowing.

But, in this scenario God is allowing man to make that choice, not making it for him.

Les

 

[lbaker]

There is no such thing as a non elect person who is just dying to know Christ. They are not out there saying "oh how I wish I could be saved." They are in their sin willingly. They are in their unbelief willingly.

How do you know that?

How can they be in their unbelief willingly if God gives them no choice to believe and makes them such that they can't believe?

Les

 

[Brother Bob]

This is a different issue. They have a choice, and they choose according to their nature. Just like you and I did before God changed our hearts.

Its quite unbelieveable to read we have a choice, but you going to hell anyway!......

 

[lbaker]

Paul suggested that they are vessels prepared for destruction. Argue with scripture, not me.



This is a different issue. They have a choice, and they choose according to their nature. Just like you and I did before God changed our hearts.

So it was possible for them to have chosen to believe and be saved?

Les