Election,“For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God”

[Brightfame52]

BF you need to read the bible more and your calvinist commentaries less. No one is saved by being drawn, they have to believe in Christ Jesus and are saved by the grace of God because they believe.

See when one is drawn that starts their new life of conversion, so the drawn are the spiritually converted. If a person is never converted, then it means 2 Things, Christ was not lifted up for them on the cross and they were never drawn.

 

[JD731]

No, God did not in that way.

No. Isaiah 43:10.

Again no. Adam wasn't indewlt to begin with.
You rant.
I stopped reading there.

How does Isa 43:10 apply in any way to my comments? Good grief.

It would be interesting to know how you and others explain Adam in the image of God.

If you do not want to read, that is your business.

 

[Silverhair]

See when one is drawn that starts their new life of conversion, so the drawn are the spiritually converted. If a person is never converted, then it means 2 Things, Christ was not lifted up for them on the cross and they were never drawn.

BF where do you get these silly ideas? What you are saying is not biblical.

 

[Brightfame52]

BF where do you get these silly ideas? What you are saying is not biblical.

Being drawn is part of their deliverance. The death of Christ delivers His people, draws them to Him to serve Him.

 

[AVL1984]

See when one is drawn that starts their new life of conversion, so the drawn are the spiritually converted. If a person is never converted, then it means 2 Things, Christ was not lifted up for them on the cross and they were never drawn.

I think you're putting words in God's mouth. Just because one is "drawn" doesn't equate to salvation, which you're implying it does. One has to make a conscious decision when drawn to accept or reject that drawing. You make it sound like because they are drawn, they're already spiritually converted. If Christ wasn't lifted up for all, then nobody could be drawn to him....period. "And if I be lifted up, I WILL DRAW ALL men unto myself." Just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, only those who looked to it lived. Conscious decision.

 

[37818]

How does Isa 43:10 apply in any way to my comments? Good grief.

It is explicit. ". . . saith the LORD, . . . understand that I am He: before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. . . ."
So your comment,

He became a god that day.

cannot be a correct understanding.

 

[Brightfame52]

avl1984

Just because one is "drawn" doesn't equate to salvation

Oh Yes it does, its the work of Salvation begun inwardly. The word draw is used metaphorically here in Jn 12:32 and Jn 6:44 and it means:

1. metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel
   

Thats God at work in a person with His Power. Phil 2:12-13

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Once a person begins to be drawn inwardly, they have been born of the Spirit and are being led by the Spirit of God.

One has to make a conscious decision when drawn to accept or reject that drawing

.

False teaching. God has made the choice to draw that person, they have been chosen by Him and now He calls them out of darkness.

You make it sound like because they are drawn, they're already spiritually converted.

Thats actually whats happening to them, being converted to Jesus Christ. They have been given Faith and Repentance

. If Christ wasn't lifted up for all, then nobody could be drawn to him....period.

Exactly, but since He was, those for whom He was lifted up for, are converted to Him, thats the power and authority of the His Cross work.

"And if I be lifted up, I WILL DRAW ALL men unto myself.

Correct all His Elect from the Gentiles and jews

Just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, only those who looked to it lived. Conscious decision.

That provision was limited to the chosen people, Israel and even to them, the ones who God would cause to be stung. That serpent in the wilderness wasnt for no other people.

Now if you believe all without exception are drawn you must believe in universalism since once a person begins to be drawn, God the Spirit is in them, and they are born again, and saved forever.

But I believe your problem is, you doubt the Power of the Cross and its Saving efficacy because of who died on the Cross, the God Man Saviour !

 

[Silverhair]

Being drawn is part of their deliverance. The death of Christ delivers His people, draws them to Him to serve Him.

BF your logic here is quite frankly dumb and not in the least biblical:
"See when one is drawn that starts their new life of conversion, so the drawn are the spiritually converted. If a person is never converted, then it means 2 Things, Christ was not lifted up for them on the cross and they were never drawn."

I asked you before where you got these ideas. They are not biblical so they have to be coming from outside material that you have read. I urge you to get rid of those materials and just trust the bible. It should be your authority.

 

[AVL1984]

avl1984



Oh Yes it does, its the work of Salvation begun inwardly. The word draw is used metaphorically here in Jn 12:32 and Jn 6:44 and it means:

1. metaph., to drManking

.

False teaching. God has made the choice to draw that person, they have been chosen by Him and now He calls them out of darkness.



Thats actually whats happening to them, being converted to Jesus Christ. They have been given Faith and Repentance



Exactly, but since He was, those for whom He was lifted up for, are converted to Him, thats the power and authority of the His Cross work.


Correct all His Elect from the Gentiles and jews



That provision was limited to the chosen people, Israel and even to them, the ones who God would cause to be stung. That serpent in the wilderness wasnt for no other people.

Now if you believe all without exception are drawn you must believe in universalism since once a person begins to be drawn, God the Spirit is in them, and they are born again, and saved forever.

But I believe your problem is, you doubt the Power of the Cross and its Saving efficacy because of who died on the Cross, the God Man Saviour !

avl1984



Oh Yes it does, its the work of Salvation begun inwardly. The word draw is used metaphorically here in Jn 12:32 and Jn 6:44 and it means:

1. metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

Thats God at work in a person with His Power. Phil 2:12-13

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Once a person begins to be drawn inwardly, they have been born of the Spirit and are being led by the Spirit of God.

.

False teaching. God has made the choice to draw that person, they have been chosen by Him and now He calls them out of darkness.



Thats actually whats happening to them, being converted to Jesus Christ. They have been given Faith and Repentance



Exactly, but since He was, those for whom He was lifted up for, are converted to Him, thats the power and authority of the His Cross work.


Correct all His Elect from the Gentiles and jews



That provision was limited to the chosen people, Israel and even to them, the ones who God would cause to be stung. That serpent in the wilderness wasnt for no other people.

Now if you believe all without exception are drawn you must believe in universalism since once a person begins to be drawn, God the Spirit is in them, and they are born again, and saved forever.

But I believe your problem is, you doubt the Power of the Cross and its Saving efficacy because of who died on the Cross, the God Man Saviour !

avl1984



Oh Yes it does, its the work of Salvation begun inwardly. The word draw is used metaphorically here in Jn 12:32 and Jn 6:44 and it means:

1. metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

Thats God at work in a person with His Power. Phil 2:12-13

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Once a person begins to be drawn inwardly, they have been born of the Spirit and are being led by the Spirit of God.

.

False teaching. God has made the choice to draw that person, they have been chosen by Him and now He calls them out of darkness.



Thats actually whats happening to them, being converted to Jesus Christ. They have been given Faith and Repentance



Exactly, but since He was, those for whom He was lifted up for, are converted to Him, thats the power and authority of the His Cross work.


Correct all His Elect from the Gentiles and jews



That provision was limited to the chosen people, Israel and even to them, the ones who God would cause to be stung. That serpent in the wilderness wasnt for no other people.

Now if you believe all without exception are drawn you must believe in universalism since once a person begins to be drawn, God the Spirit is in them, and they are born again, and saved forever.

But I believe your problem is, you doubt the Power of the Cross and its Saving efficacy because of who died on the Cross, the God Man Saviour !

You definitely have some twisted hermeneutical/exegetical skills there, friend. I see no "metaphorical" meaning behind the word "draw." And the way you explain the work of salvation and its components is really more like I've seen in the Mormons than in Christianity. The Lord Jesus Christ was the one who made the reference to the serpent in the wilderness being lifted up, so take your objections up with him, and the Bible. I don't buy your explanation here...It's just not scriptural.

 

[Brightfame52]

BF your logic here is quite frankly dumb and not in the least biblical:
"See when one is drawn that starts their new life of conversion, so the drawn are the spiritually converted. If a person is never converted, then it means 2 Things, Christ was not lifted up for them on the cross and they were never drawn."

I asked you before where you got these ideas. They are not biblical so they have to be coming from outside material that you have read. I urge you to get rid of those materials and just trust the bible. It should be your authority.

What you fail to understand to your peril, is that drawing is the power of God in the new birth, its the Holy Spirit leading a Sheep to Christ. Thats what Christs death accomplished.

 

[Brightfame52]

You definitely have some twisted hermeneutical/exegetical skills there, friend. I see no "metaphorical" meaning behind the word "draw." And the way you explain the work of salvation and its components is really more like I've seen in the Mormons than in Christianity. The Lord Jesus Christ was the one who made the reference to the serpent in the wilderness being lifted up, so take your objections up with him, and the Bible. I don't buy your explanation here...It's just not scriptural.

Thats all you have to say? You have been shown the truth, and you reject it.

 

[Silverhair]

What you fail to understand to your peril, is that drawing is the power of God in the new birth, its the Holy Spirit leading a Sheep to Christ. Thats what Christs death accomplished.

What you fail to understand is that your view is not biblical. You are trusting in your man made theology rather than the bible.

 

[AVL1984]

Thats all you have to say? You have been shown the truth, and you reject it.

I reject YOUR INTERPRETATION of WHAT YOU BELIEVE to be the truth. I see you didn't address anything I said, but jumped to a defensive posture. That's just more proof of your inability to accept the truth...period.

 

[Alan Gross]

There is an Outward and an Inward Call.

THE OUTWARD CALL, IN ITSELF, IS ALWAYS INEFFECTIVE

The INWARD CALL is always Effectual in its Drawing to Salvation.


from: http://www.ntslibrary.com/PDF Books II/Simmons - A Systematic Study of Bible Doctrine.pdf

Election has to do with the purpose and planning of salvation. The atonement has to do with the provision of it. We come now to study the application and communication of salvation to the elect.

I. THE OUTWARD CALL The Scripture clearly speaks of two different calls. The first one in the order of occurrence is known generally as the outward or external call. The following Scriptures refer to this call: Isa. 45:22; 55:6; Matt. 9:13; 11:28; 22:14; Mark 2:17; Luke 5:32; Rev. 22:17.

There are other Scriptures that evidently refer to both calls. These are reserved until we take up the inward call.

1. THE OUTWARD CALL IS THROUGH THE PREACHING OF THE GOSPEL. It was by means of the gospel that Jesus called sinners to repentance. Today every presentation of the gospel is a call to men to forsake sin and trust Christ. The preaching of the gospel is also properly attended by a setting forth of man's need of salvation and of his duty and responsibility under God to repent and believe (Acts 17:30). There should also be the earnest entreaty to men to be reconciled to God (2 Cor. 5:20) and an invitation to all that labor (Matt. 11:28), and are athirst (Isa. 55:1; John 7:37; Rev. 22:17).

2. THE OUTWARD CALL IS AN INDIRECT CALL OF THE SPIRIT

See the discussion of the indirect work of the Spirit in the lost in Chapter IX.

3. THE OUTWARD CALL, THEREFORE, IS GENERAL

By this we mean that it is not confined to the elect (Matt. 22:14). We are commanded to preach the gospel to all. This call is intended for all men, though all do not hear it. This is true just as all men are commanded to repent (Acts 17:30), even though all men do not hear this command.

4. THE OUTWARD CALL, OF ITSELF, IS ALWAYS INEFFECTIVE

To Israel God said: "When I called, ye did not answer" (Isa. 65:12). The call referred to here was an outward call similar to the call now under discussion. Because of man's depravity, the preaching of the gospel alone is never sufficient to bring him to Christ. He needs more than an outward call. The gospel "is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth" (Rom. 1:16); but "the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness unto him, and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged" (1 Cor. 2:14). Man must be enabled to turn from sin and believe on Christ. Jer. 13:23; John 12:39,40; 6:44,65. Nevertheless, it is the immediate duty of all to accept this call. Acts 17:30.

 

[Alan Gross]

5. The OUTWARD CALL IS SINCERE

Arminians object that the Calvinistic system of doctrine makes a general call insincere. Sincere means "being in reality as in appearance. Intending precisely what one says or what one appears to intend." Having defined the term under discussion, we are now prepared to examine the exact grounds of this objection. Three Calvinistic teachings are pointed out as rendering a general call insincere.

They are: (1) The teaching that man by nature is unable to turn from sin to Christ. Arminians say if the case with the natural man were such as Calvinists represent it, and this was fully known to God, then God could not be sincere in inviting men to come to Christ. But there is nothing in the general call that makes it appear that all men are able to respond to it. This is nothing more than an unwarranted inference. And it has its foundation, not in the call itself, but in an erroneous conception of man's state by nature. Hence this call is not insincere. "God's call to all men to repent and to believe the gospel is no more insincere than His command to all men to Love Him with all the heart. There is no obstacle in the way of man's obedience to the gospel, that does not exist to prevent their obedience to the law. If it is proper to publish the commands of the law, it is proper to publish the invitations of the gospel. A human being may be perfectly sincere in giving an invitation that he knows will be refused. He may desire to have the invitation accepted, while yet he may, for certain reasons of justice and personal dignity, be unwilling to put forth special efforts, aside from the invitation itself, to secure the acceptance of it on the part of those to whom it is offered" (Strong). Does God's invitation or call to all men any more appear to indicate that all men can accept it than His command to all men to love Him supremely appears to indicate that all men can do it?

(2) The teaching as to God's elective purpose to save only a portion of Adam's race. Arminians say if God has purposed to save only a portion of Adam's race, then He cannot sincerely invite all men to come to Christ for salvation. Let it first be remarked as to this phase of the objection that the objector, to have even the semblance of consistency, must deny the foreknowledge of God. For, if God foreknew everything, then He certainly foreknew that all men would not believe the gospel, since we see that all do not. And certainly no evangelical would say that God purposed to save those who reject the gospel.

So, if the foreknowledge of God be true, then God purposed to save only a part of Adam's race, believers. Hence consistency demands that the Arminian surrender either this phase of the objection or else surrender the foreknowledge of God. He cannot be logical and hold both.

(3) The doctrine of a limited atonement. This was touched on in relation to the sincerity of God's general call through the gospel in the previous chapter. However we give it further brief notice. If one is going before a large number of people to offer to each one of them a ten-dollar bill, and he has inerrant knowledge before hand that only a hundred out of that number will accept his offer, need he in order to make a sincere offer to all have more than one hundred ten-dollar bills? Surely not. Knowing that he has a sufficient number to supply all that will accept the offer, he can most freely and sincerely say, "Let every one of you that desires a ten-dollar bill come to me and I will give you one." Is it not manifest to all who can think logically that, in a case such as is described above, the failure of all the people except the hundred to receive a ten-dollar bill would be due to their refusal of the offer, and not to lack of provision? God's general call is in appearance no more than it is in reality. And He appears to intend no more than He does actually intend. This does not appear as something that all men can respond to nor as something that will enable men to come to Christ or that will necessarily impel them to come.

Nor does this call appear to affirm that God has made a futile provision of salvation for those who persist in unbelief. In this call God appears to intend that all men are welcome if they will come; that all who come will be received. He actually intends just this. It is just as much a Bible truth that all who come to Christ will be saved as it is that only the elect will be saved. We can heartily and gladly subscribe to the New Hampshire Declaration of Faith in saying that "nothing prevents the salvation of the greatest sinner on earth except his own inherent depravity and voluntary refusal to submit to the Lord Jesus Christ." In other words, these are the things that send the sinner to Hell.

 

[Alan Gross]

II. THE INWARD CALL

The following Scriptures refer to the inward call: Acts 2:39; Rom. 1:6; 8.28,30; 9:11,24; 1 Cor. 1:1,26; 7:15; Gal. 1:15; 5:8; Eph. 4:4; Col. 3:15; 1 Thess. 5:24; 2 Thess. 2:14; 2 Tim. 1:9; Heb. 9:15; 1 Pet. 1.15; 2:9; 3:9; 5:10; 2 Pet. 1:3,10; Jude 1. Some of these Scriptures, as has been indicated already, seem to allude to both the inward and outward call.

1. THE INWARD CALL IS A DIRECT CALL THROUGH THE SPIRIT

The Holy Spirit takes the preached gospel and opens the heart of the sinner (Acts 16:14), applying the word to the heart in regenerating power. It is then, and only then, that man is able to understand and receive the things of the Spirit of God. Thus the inward call is also through the gospel, but it is through the gospel as applied by the Holy Spirit. The Scriptures touching on this work of the Spirit through the word will be given when we study regeneration.

2. THE INWARD CALL IS PARTICULAR

By means of it, the chosen objects of God's saving grace are singled out. The difference here between the outward and the inward calls may be imperfectly illustrated by the difference between a general invitation extended by a church to the people of a community to attend its services and the personal invitations that are extended to particular individuals by the membership of the church. Of course, as we have said, this only imperfectly illustrates the difference between God's two calls. Rom. 8:30 shows the particularity of this call.

3. THE INWARD CALL IS ALWAYS EFFECTIVE

It is manifest that the Scriptures given at the beginning of the discussion of this call refer to an effective and efficient call. This call is never resisted; yet, in responding to it, man acts voluntarily and freely. See chapter on "The Free Agency of Man." The effectiveness of this call is shown by Rom. 8:28, 30; 1 Cor. 1:24.

(Return to Contents)

 

[Brightfame52]

I reject YOUR INTERPRETATION of WHAT YOU BELIEVE to be the truth. I see you didn't address anything I said, but jumped to a defensive posture. That's just more proof of your inability to accept the truth...period.

Once the drawing begins, salvation has began. God the Holy Spirit is leading the person to Christ Rom 8:14

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Thats the drawing, being led by the Spirit inwardly. And they are the Sons of God, the Children of God

 

[AVL1984]

Once the drawing begins, salvation has began. God the Holy Spirit is leading the person to Christ Rom 8:14

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Thats the drawing, being led by the Spirit inwardly. And they are the Sons of God, the Children of God

That is a terrible exegesis on your part. People being led of God after salvation isn't being "drawn" into salvation. The main context of Romans 8 is about the Christian life...being led by the Spirit of God. It's not about being led/drawn into salvation.

 

[Brightfame52]

That is a terrible exegesis on your part. People being led of God after salvation isn't being "drawn" into salvation. The main context of Romans 8 is about the Christian life...being led by the Spirit of God. It's not about being led/drawn into salvation.

No its the Truth, and we see your reaction to it. Being drawn begins the Christian life,

 

[AVL1984]

No its the Truth, and we see your reaction to it. Being drawn begins the Christian life,

Deflecting...Can't address what was written, can you? My reaction has nothing to do with it, especially in light of your poor hermeneutics. That is NOT what the verse you posted is addressing. I question your understanding of the Bible and Bible doctrines as a whole.