Election: A Glorious Truth for all Christians

[zrs6v4]

I was going to say this earlier in this thread. I keep hearing people use 1 Peter 1:2 to argue against God's sovereign election. I am one who feels very strongly for a proper Biblical understanding on election although as seen over and over it is so very easy to misunderstand. Im not trying to come across as if I know it all, but anyway...

I think reading the rest of the chapter does a great job at showing this election process, although its not in plain modern day terms. anyway I picked out a few verses to consider and think about-

vs 1 and 2: elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled by His blood.

so when just focusing on foreknowledge and thinking in modern day terms I can see how one would assume that God looks way into the future on mans choices and say that God chooses b/c He simply sees that later on we have faith. I would say this is not true because it would then be pointless to speak of election which the New Testament speaks of as working after God's will not our will. This verse also shows God's means of bringing this about, the work of the Spirit (regeneration, conviction, etc...). It also shows that the target of election is for us to obey Jesus and be saved. I would simply say think about it from both angles.

vs 3. because of mercy we were "caused" to be born again
vs 4. to "obtain" the imperishable inheritance that is...
vs 5. "protected" by God and His sovereign work (how? through faith, not because of)..
skipping down
vs 20 Christ was foreknown? is this because Christ had faith or it was the eternal will of God that was set in stone?
vs 23-25 the means by which we were born to the imperishable nature by the Spirit of God through the Gospel.

 

[Winman]

Winman

An interesting post. Perhaps the answer to my question: What is it about you as a person that caused you to accept the offer of Salvation in Jesus Christ while others reject that Salvation? was hidden in there somewhere but I did not find it. Could you either point it out to me or perhaps present a one or two sentence answer? It should not be that difficult considering all that you have posted defending your position!

Old Regular, you ask this question as though it proves your doctrine. And I have answered this question half a dozen times. Jesus himself answered this question.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Jesus said some men love darkness. Why is that so hard to understand for you? You are older than me, you have been around, have you not observed that some men love evil? I have.

Why does a person become a career criminal or burglar? Easy. They don't like to work. It is far easier to break into someone else's home and take what they worked for instead of working for it yourself.

Why do people sell drugs? Easy. It is an easy way to make lots of money without having to work.

Why do men fool around on their wives? They love pleasure. Why have we recently found out that a well known married athelete has fooled around with over a dozen women? Because it is pleasurable. It feels good. It excites the senses. It is fun. It strokes the man's ego. He enjoys that.

Come on, are you telling me you don't understand this? I understood this when I was a small child.

And why do these men hate the gospel? Simple. They know Jesus is going to tell them to turn from their sins and pleasures, and they simply do not want to do this. They love the evil things they do, they find pleasure in them.

2 Thess 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

So, this is not some big mystery to most of us. The scriptures are full of verses that show wicked men love the pleasures of sins. You simply refuse to accept what the scriptures say.

So quit acting like this has not been answered. Jesus himself gave the answer in John 3:19, you simply don't want to accept it because it doesn't agree with your doctrine you want to cling to.

 

[psalms109:31]

Apology

I don't owe know one an apology, but the world deserves the whole truth, not just part of it. I don't remember saying anyone one's name or accusing any one of anything. The devil is the accuser of the brethren.

That God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

The Glory of the New Covenant

2 Corinthians 3:127Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect[Or contemplate] the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

 

[Johnv]

I don't owe know one...

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:...om/myfiles/han-solo/_Leia20and20Chewbacca.jpg

 

[Amy.G]

Who on this forum has said that anyone is chosen apart from Jesus Christ? The passage I most often use in talking about election is Ephesians 1:3-6.

If God chooses an individual before they were born, before they had faith (belief) in Jesus, then logically they are being chosen apart from Christ. They are apart from Christ because until they believe, they are unbelievers. This means God has chosen them for salvation while they were unbelievers! God does not grant salvation to unbelievers! You cannot be saved UNTIL you believe.

The elect chosen before the foundation of the world are all those who are "in Christ". We are in Christ only after we have believed Him and received Him.
This was God's plan from the foundation of the world. All those who believe were elected for salvation.

Calvinism has God up in heaven pointing His finger at individuals saying "I elect Joe for salvation, and Bob, and Sally.....". But Joe, Bob and Sally don't have faith in Christ, which Jesus Himself said that you must have in order to be saved. Therefore, what you have is God choosing Joe, Bob and Sally apart from faith in Christ. This is completely unbiblical.

 

[Johnv]

If God chooses an individual before they were born, before they had faith (belief) in Jesus...

It doesn't work that way. That's an attempt to explain it according to our limited ability and understanding. God isn't beholden to the rules of linear time. When God does something, it's not done before or after something else. It's just done. There's no "if/then" in God's existence. He exists in all points in time at once, and there is no cause/effect to God. Only to us. Knowing that God's actions are not bound by time, it becomes easier to accept the idea that the a person can be elect, yet a person still retains the full responsibility to accept or reject the gift of salvation. It is not an oxymoron.

Calvin and the reformers has a sense of the omniscient and omnipresent natures of God, but the omnitemporal nature of God wasn't a concept that could wrap their minds around, at least not at that time.

 

[AresMan]

Is it so hard to understand? :jesus: Turn or Burn!

The question is irreducible. WHY did you turn while others with the same exposure did not?

 

[AresMan]

Faith and repentance are two sides of the same coin. You see light and have to choose to want more......or run back to the darkness. But "WARNING" God might not allow you to have another glimps!

How can one "choose" to "want" something. Either one wants something based upon internal witness, or one does not.

How can one "choose" to "believe" something. Either one is convinced by evidence through internal witness or one is not. One cannot "believe" something contrary to one's own convictions. One cannot "make up" his own convictions apart from nature, desire, and evidence.

 

[Johnv]

Uh, a personal conviction is a choice. It's defined as being a fixed or firm belief. That fact doesn't in any way interfere with the concept of election.

 

[Amy.G]

It doesn't work that way.

Then how does it work?

That's an attempt to explain it according to our limited ability and understanding.

No, it's an attempt to explain it according to Calvinist Doctrine.


I personally believe what the Bible says. Elect according to the "foreknowledge" of God.

God does NOT elect apart from faith in Christ. If you think He does, please prove it scripturally.

 

[Amy.G]

How can one "choose" to "want" something.

Before my husband was saved, he "chose" to want what I had. He told me many times that he wished he had what I had. Now, he does.

How can one "choose" to "believe" something. Either one is convinced by evidence through internal witness or one is not. One cannot "believe" something contrary to one's own convictions. One cannot "make up" his own convictions apart from nature, desire, and evidence.

No, one can't. God has made Himself known to ALL men through creation, the scriptures, the witness of others, and the drawing of the Holy Spirit.....so that men are without excuse. But God does not force anyone to believe.

 

[Johnv]

Then how does it work?

I explained it in the same post. God's omnitemporal nature dictates that election and personal responsibility to accept/reject salvation are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Rippon]

I've noticed that Calvinists and Doctrines of Gracer's absolutely reverse the scriptures. They say exactly the opposite of what the scriptures say.


[Personal attack removed]
It doesn't bother them in the least to teach exactly the opposite of what scripture says. Now, that is bold indeed.



I see no discernment or understanding of scripture from Calvinist's [sic]and Doctrines of Gracers. It is amazing that they understand scripture completely opposite of what it is easily understood to say. [Personal attack removed]

Note: A Calvinistic position is not a false doctrine and cannot be called such. It is a differing position than your own. One cannot call it a false doctrine. DHK

Hmm, the charge that we teach the very reverse of what Scripture declares is fine for Winman to post? I think you need to do some more deletions.

 

[OldRegular]

Old Regular, you ask this question as though it proves your doctrine. And I have answered this question half a dozen times. Jesus himself answered this question.

You have yet to answer the personal question I asked you: What is it about you as a person that caused you to accept the offer of Salvation in Jesus Christ while others reject that Salvation?

 

[OldRegular]

God has chosen them in Christ not apart from Him, It is the body of Jesus that God has chosen before the foundation of the world not you apart from Him. You are pretty high on yourself to believe God chose you apart from Christ. You have no hope without Jesus.

Actually you owe me an apology because you lied about me. The above was posted immediately after I mentioned election and the Parable of the Sower in response to Jedi Knight.

 

[webdog]

Actually you owe me an apology because you lied about me. The above was posted immediately after I mentioned election and the Parable of the Sower in response to Jedi Knight.

You have lied about us on numerous occasions by stating we believe we are sovereign over God...and I have yet to see an apology from you.

 

[webdog]

I explained it in the same post. God's omnitemporal nature dictates that election and personal responsibility to accept/reject salvation are not mutually exclusive.

Yes...but election in our linear world is never apart from Christ. Calvinism contradicts this notion by stating election is unto, prior, for, etc. salvation.

 

[psalms109:31]

Opinion

I don't know you or what you totally believe only God knows that. What you teach needs to be known to, and I praise God what God has revealed to you and love to listen you. I am sorry that you feel this against you, but it was intended for everyone else to know. I would not be where I am in the Lord if it wasn't for people like yourself.

I am sorry that you feel that everyone is attacking you, but I am not.

 

[DHK]

Hmm, the charge that we teach the very reverse of what Scripture declares is fine for Winman to post? I think you need to do some more deletions.

As far as Winman is concerned you do teach the reverse of what Scripture declares. That is the essence of this debate. Do you want me to cave into your beliefs Rippon? I won't do it. I am not a Calvinist. Neither is he. You may not like the way that he phrases things, but that is his position. His position is that Calvinism is in error and teaches the opposite of what Scripture teaches.

Your position is that the non-Cal position is wrong and teaches contrary to what the Scripture teaches and you have been very vocal about it. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. What are you all upset about. You have been doing the same thing for years.

 

[Johnv]

Yes...but election in our linear world is never apart from Christ.

I would concur.

Calvinism contradicts this notion by stating election is unto, prior, for, etc. salvation.

Not so. The doctrine of election is only in error if God is bound by time. John Calvin and those early Canvinists understood God's sovereign nature over our election, but didn't have an understanding of God's omnitemporal nature. Yes, we are limited to a linear existence. God is not. At this very moment, God is present at the moment your were born, them moment you came to Christ, and at the moment you will die. We can't escape this timeline, but God doesn't exist in it as we do. With this understanding, it becomes clearer how free will and election are not exclusive of each other.