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Election And Predestination In Complete Harmony
- Thread starter tyndale1946
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SheepWhisperer
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......through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Exactly, that's how one gets saved brother: God sanctifies the (S)pirit and WE believe the truth.
Exactly, that's how one gets saved brother: God sanctifies the (S)pirit and WE believe the truth.
Had to give you a WINNER award T.C. and in the words of Sovereigngrace! and I hope it's OK with him if I use it... Winner, Winner... Chicken Dinner!... Brother Glen
Did I say our election for salvation was not "totally due to the will of God?" Nope - so more strawman, more deflection
If unregenerate people are unable to receive any of the spiritual things, how were the men of Matthew 23:13 entering the kingdom of heaven. Simply repeating obvious falsehoods is no defense of bogus doctrine.
1) You brought our predestined adoption into the discussion, I just provided the biblical basis for understanding when our adoption will occur in the future.
2) Before God transfers us individually into Christ, we are not "positionally seated" with Christ. No biblical support for this bogus view will be forthcoming.
More attack the messager, but no biblical support for the bogus doctrine of unconditional election for salvation. The bible "oozes" verse after verse saying we were chosen for salvation through faith in the truth, and we were chosen as rich in faith, and as people who love God. (2 Thessalonians 2:13, James 2:5)
Yet another deflection, a change the subject question.
So the older would serve the younger according to scripture. The condition, faith in the truth is clearly stated in 2 Thessalonians 2:13. Changing to subject is just a deflection. Scripture is crystal, our election for salvation is conditional.
Yes, faith in the truth!!
Nothing at all, God chooses us for salvation through faith in the truth, which is His sovereign will. Why deny His word?
Our adoption is already secure. It's not future. Before the foundation of the world in fact.
You seem to ignore Ephesians 1 and 2 where God says Jesus is seated next to the Father and we are seated their in Christ. Our position is already there. No future tense.
This is your typical whine when you are shown to be wrong.
Again another whine when you are shown to be wrong.
Where does 2 Thessalonians speak about Jacob and Esau?
No deflection. The Bible oozes with unconditional election, but you hate the Bible for saying it over and over again.
The truth is that God chooses according to his will with no conditions required.
You and I had no faith in God until God graciously gave us faith. It is his gracious and kind choice about which we cannot boast.
It's sad to see you pat yourself on the back and claim it was your work of faith that saved you. In your theology, you choose God off the grocery store shelf of gods. It makes you prideful of your choice.
It's a good thing you're wrong.
Our adoption is future, all those redeemed by Christ will be adopted at His second coming. Romans 8:23
Yes those in Christ, who have been redeemed are seated with Christ. Thus when God transfers us into Christ, our "positional sanctification" we are positionally seated in the heavenliest. Not before.
Note the lack of substance, just another attack the messenger deflection. The stock and trade of the purveyors of fake theology. OTOH, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says our election for salvation was conditional, through faith in the truth. Ditto for James 2:5.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 speaks about our conditional election for salvation, through faith in the truth. And even referring to the election of Jacob and Esau, note the the election was conditional, so the older would serve the younger.
No verse or passage has been cited to support the bogus doctrine that our election for salvation is unconditional.
More denial of scripture, because scripture says God chooses people for salvation through faith in the truth.
Yet another change the subject claim, and it is bogus too. It was Abraham's faith that was credited as righteousness. So more deflection to hide the fake theology.
Did I say I saved myself? So yet another smear, and effort to deflect to a discussion of my flaws. Folks, this behavior is the tell-tale sign of the purveyors of fake theology.
Who saves us? God does! Does He alone credit our faith as righteousness or not? Yes.
.[/QUOTE]
Nope. Past, present already happened before the foundation of the world. The only thing needed is for our Father to pick us up. The paperwork is completed. We're legal. Whoo Hoo!
Past. Ephesians 2:5-6 makes this clear. You are adding your own commentary with no biblical support.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 is past tense. "God has chosen you from the beginning..."
The same is true for James 2:5. Past tense.
"But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth." ~ 2 Thessalonians 2:13
There is no condition to Jacob and Esau. Both were jerks. God chose Jacob because He willed it. No conditions given.
The entire Bible oozes with it.
What condition did God place on Paul while on the road to Damascus when God revealed His election of Paul? Show us the statement where God says "I will save you only if you do these things on the list, Paul." I would love to see the conditions given.
No one is denying scripture other than you.
Faith is a gift of God extended to us by grace. See Ephesians and Romans.
If you imagine that you generated the faith on your own then you have cause to boast. But God says that God gave you the gift of faith precisely so that you could have no cause to boast.
Yes it was Abraham's faith. How did he get it? Did Abraham conjure it up by his own power and will? If so, how much faith did Abraham have when he lied about Sarah being his sister?
Again, you add your own works to salvation. Pat yourself on the back some more for your own conjured up faith, which God so admired that he was obliged to grant you salvation. Where is the applause-o-meter?
Folks, note that scripture says we are looking forward to our adoption, yet the fake theology purveyor says it has already happened.
The past tense refers to those God has placed in Christ, after crediting their faith as righteousness. Note the effort to avoid the fact God elected us for salvation through faith in the truth. Therefore the election occurs during our lifetime, after we have come to faith.
Next, the fact that Jacob was chosen over Esau in order that the older would serve the younger is omitted.
Yet another change the subject to Paul,and dodging that we are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth.
Next, another change of subject, and another claim of bogus doctrine, not supported by scripture. Scripture refers to our faith, like in Jesus say your faith has saved you, more than a dozen times. How many times does it say God's instilled faith? None, zip nada. Pay no attention to the purveyors of fake theology.
Scripture says God credited Abraham's faith as righteousness, not God instilled faith in Abraham. Pay no attention to the purveyors of fake theology.
Did I say my faith merited salvation? Nope. Did I say God was obligated to grant salvation? Nope Pay no attention to those who misrepresent others to create strawman arguments.
The past tense refers to those God has placed in Christ, after crediting their faith as righteousness. Note the effort to avoid the fact God elected us for salvation through faith in the truth. Therefore the election occurs during our lifetime, after we have come to faith.
Next, the fact that Jacob was chosen over Esau in order that the older would serve the younger is omitted.
Yet another change the subject to Paul,and dodging that we are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth.
Next, another change of subject, and another claim of bogus doctrine, not supported by scripture. Scripture refers to our faith, like in Jesus say your faith has saved you, more than a dozen times. How many times does it say God's instilled faith? None, zip nada. Pay no attention to the purveyors of fake theology.
Scripture says God credited Abraham's faith as righteousness, not God instilled faith in Abraham. Pay no attention to the purveyors of fake theology.
Did I say my faith merited salvation? Nope. Did I say God was obligated to grant salvation? Nope Pay no attention to those who misrepresent others to create strawman arguments.
Look out folks, the nullifiers are out in force in this thread. The men of Matthew 23:13 were entering the kingdom of heaven, therefore they possessed some spiritual ability. Thus the bogus doctrine of total spiritual inability is shown to be invalid.
LOL, Van, how did you end up in a big soft pretzel? I'd love to hear your story of God's amazing grace and how you keep trying to make God thank you for choosing him and conjuring up a big chunk of personal Van de Kamp pork'nbean faith from the pot. Please tell us your story round the campfire so we can admire that Van de Kamp pork'nbean faith of yours. We ain't worthy. We ain't worthy. [emoji41] [emoji8] [emoji2] [emoji56]
Yet another "shoot the messenger" post devoid of any biblical support for the bogus doctrine of unconditional election. OTOH, Ephesians 1:4 says we were chosen in Him before creation. What this means is that when Christ was chosen to be the Lamb of God, the Redeemer, those the Redeemer would redeem were chosen corporately, as the target group of God's redemption plan. Therefore our individual election for salvation actually occurs during our lifetime through faith in the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:13.
This same biblical truth is also taught in James 2:5 where God chooses those poor to the world, rich in faith and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God.
Lets face facts, unconditional election is fake theology, the invention of men. Scripture is crystal clear, God chooses people for salvation through faith in the truth, a conditional election. No need to bash the messenger, it is God's Word.
This same biblical truth is also taught in James 2:5 where God chooses those poor to the world, rich in faith and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God.
Lets face facts, unconditional election is fake theology, the invention of men. Scripture is crystal clear, God chooses people for salvation through faith in the truth, a conditional election. No need to bash the messenger, it is God's Word.
I know you can find a ton of commentaries in support of the Calvinist interpretation of Romans 8, but in my opinion they are bogus.
Dr. Dan Wallace has written that both corporate and individual election are intertwined in the writings of Paul.
So lets walk through the chapter and see if we can agree on the obvious.
8:1 refers to individuals who have been chosen and transferred into Christ. Once in Christ, washed in His blood, justified, there is no condemnation for past, present or future sins. This focus (born anew believers) is in view through verse 4.
Verse 5 makes a general statement that as born anew believers we set our minds of spiritual things, and those not born anew set their minds on fleshly desires. Where many commentaries go off the rails is to conclude that born anew people cannot set their minds on fleshly desires, or men of flesh cannot set their minds on some spiritual things. The verse does not say this group can only do this, and the other group can only do that. Such a conclusion is being read into the text.
Next we must deal with the phrase "in the flesh" verse 8. Again many commentaries go off the rails again and claim this refers to those not yet born anew. But the alternate view (one I share) is this refers to people (born anew or not) who set their minds on fleshly desires. Verse 9 refers to those who are born anew (indwelt) reading or hearing Paul's letter who have their minds set on spiritual things.
Verse 11 makes the promise of the redemption of our bodies at Christ's second coming.
Verse 14 repeats the idea that those born anew and therefore indwelt are saved forever.
In verse 15, we see that our indwelt Spirit of Adoption is the pledge to our bodily redemption, the adoption of our bodies at Christ's second coming. At this point in God's redemption plan we have been born anew spiritually but not bodily, we are spiritual children of God with the right to become bodily children of God. Verse 17 makes the point that we must have really been born anew (and therefore actually suffered and died with Him spiritually) in order to be bodily gloried at His second coming.
In verse 19, "creation" refers to mankind.
Verse 23 refers to those spiritually born anew who are looking forward to our bodily redemption.
Turning now to verse 28: Here Paul uses "called" to refer to those God has transferred into Christ and caused to be spiritually born anew, an individual election.
For those He foreknew ( refers to the target group of His redemption plan and not individuals before creation)
And God redemption plan included causing those chosen (1)to be born anew, and (2) progressively matured by the Spirit such at those chosen would become siblings of Christ.
Now we reach verse 30, and the individual implementation of His redemption plan. Those predestined refers to the target group, and then those called refers to individuals chosen through faith in the truth. Once transferred into Christ spiritually, we are justified (washed with His blood) and spiritually gloried (made holy and blameless in God's eyes).
Brother Van,
Thank you for your exegesis of Romans 8. You were very thorough. It's very important to hear what someone believes in their larger interpretation of Scripture.
My Church is Baptist and non-Calvin. The doctrine of Eternal Security (OSAS) is taught. Isn't this really Point 5 of TULIP, and what Sproul calls the Preservation of the Saints? Didn't God elect the individuals in the "target group" in what Ephesians 1 says, from before the foundation of the world? Kindly give some details about what you think about this chapter.
I am a Calvinist. Please take no offense. My desire is to listen carefully and comment respectfully. I am looking forward to hearing more of what you believe.
Thank you for your exegesis of Romans 8. You were very thorough. It's very important to hear what someone believes in their larger interpretation of Scripture.
My Church is Baptist and non-Calvin. The doctrine of Eternal Security (OSAS) is taught. Isn't this really Point 5 of TULIP, and what Sproul calls the Preservation of the Saints? Didn't God elect the individuals in the "target group" in what Ephesians 1 says, from before the foundation of the world? Kindly give some details about what you think about this chapter.
I am a Calvinist. Please take no offense. My desire is to listen carefully and comment respectfully. I am looking forward to hearing more of what you believe.
Nice job of making this up, buddy.
Being chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world means exactly what it says. You add "corporately" to the text in order to make your non-biblical argument. You get even more creative by calling this election the "target group."
Dude, you have a puny view of God and tell us that he needs you to conjure up your own faith before he can choose you. In doing so you make God a liar when he tells you that the faith is not of yourself so that you cannot boast.
You are completely wrong and have created a doctrine not promoted in scripture.
You need to thank him for his eisegesis and not exegesis. Lullz...
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