Election And Predestination In Complete Harmony

[MennoSota]

Good think I am neither one of those. Once again I have answered your question. You want to set up a limitation around that question as if it is nothing more than a yes or no response. I reject your self imposed limitation on that. Go back and read my answer. This is that last time I will address this question.

Your avoidance is noted. I'm not sure why you refuse to answer whether or not God is bound in time. [Personal insinuation edited]

 

[InTheLight]

Your avoidance is noted. I'm not sure why you refuse to answer whether or not God is bound in time. Perhaps you have adopted open theism.

Please explain what you mean by "bound in time".

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[MennoSota]

Please explain what you mean by "bound in time".

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

It has already been explained.
God is not held in time. God sees all things happening simultaneously.
God can step into time, but time does not hold him captive and limit God.

 

[InTheLight]

It has already been explained.
God is not held in time. God sees all things happening simultaneously.
God can step into time, but time does not hold him captive and limit God.

And here I thought God was the cause of all things, not an observer. Huh.

Sent from my Motorola Droid Turbo.

 

[Yeshua1]

And here I thought God was the cause of all things, not an observer. Huh.

Sent from my Motorola Droid Turbo.

Well, don't see Him as author of evil and sin though!

 

[Mr. Davis]

Predestination and Disobedience

God predetermined that his children would have two natures. Galatians 5 describes the fleshly nature (called the sinful nature in some translations) and the spiritual nature. The characteristics of each nature are described. They battle each other for control of the believer’s life.

Since we are not perfect in this life, a consistent walk can be difficult. If we seek the Holy Spirit’s help, we may not carry out the wishes of the sinful nature. But, as 1 John points out, if we say we have no sin, we are a liar, and the truth is not in us.

How did God deal with our disobedience? He sent Christ. According to Romans 5, He obeyed for us totally and completely. Regardless of the circumstances, God looks through Christ and sees us perfectly obedient. This is “positional” obedience.

God cares about our daily walk with him also. If we disobey Him for a shorter or longer duration, He will chasten us. Pastor Charles Stanley (First Baptist Church of Atlanta, Georgia) says that God uses many ways to get believers back on course. He may use illness, accidents, messages from the pulpit, songs, confrontation by a friend, the loss of someone close to us, or an unexpected tragedy. Sometimes it’s a reaping of the natural consequences of whatever sin was committed.

What happens if the believer refuses to repent? God has ordained means to this end. One scripture comes to mind. In 1 Cor 11, Paul exhorts those abusing the Lord’s Supper to judge themselves or God will judge them. Some of the unrepentant were made ill, others were caused to die. But God said that they would not be condemned with the world.

Another scripture comes from Romans 8. There is, therefore, no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Christ says in the book of John, that there is no condemnation for those who believe in Him.

So, whatever we do, God will not abandon us. The “Unforgivable Sin” committed by the Jewish religious leaders, attributing Christ’s works to Satan, cannot be done today. It was their specific sin.

Believers that choose an ongoing life of sin will not reign with Christ in His Kingdom. Their position in the Kingdom will depend on whether any of their works (after salvation) survive the believer’s judgment described in 1 Cor 3. Certainly, these Carnal Christians will be saved “so as by fire.” But they will not receive the rewards that the faithful will.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Thank you Brother for taking the time to post this. I truly mean this. Knowing you pastor a church, that takes a lot of your time. Thanks again. I may have to post a few posts so that this won't be sooooooo looooong.

Until God seeks them.

Agreed. The context is talking about the wicked. We all were in that camp at one time, so Psalms 14 and Romans 3 includes us in that bunch, too. Now, when seeks His ppl, He finds them. As the angel told Mary, "You shall name Him Jesus, for He will save His ppl from their sins."[Matthew 1:21] He also said "For the Son of Man came to seek and save the lost."[Luke 19:10] Notice He said to seek and save. He did not say 'try to save', but to save. So, the context of the lost here are His ppl, the elect of God.

That is your imposition on that passage. It in no way places born in front of receive or believe.

Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed, he gave the right to become children of God—[John 1:12] Now, I do not deny that ppl must receive Him. Now, who are the ones who receive Him? The answer is found in verse 13...children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. This passage could not be any clearer if it tried. Those who receive God must be born of Him first. that is the context of this passage.

OK? This passage in no way explains the mechanics of salvation.

Let's back up to verse 7 and follow through verse 10...

Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.[1 John 4:7-10] Those who love God have been born of Him. Which coincides with the expression John made in John 1.

Again imposing your personal logic and reasoning on scripture. However, God is not limited by our spiritual condition. Being dead in our sins does not restrain God from reaching in our hearts and opening it up and allowing us to choose. We have a big God and He can choose to do it however He wants. There is nothing to stand in the way.

When God moves upon the dead in trespasses and sins sinner, He does so effectually. He brings us to life so that we can hear Him. We were nekros, a spiritual corpse. We were dead, being alienated from Him. As God moves through the proclamation of the gospel, He quickens whoever He wills.[John 5:21]

Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—



You are welcome to repeat yourself but it fails to make your point regardless of how many times you say it.

Again, those who receive Him have been born of Him. The birth takes place before receiving Him.

God requiring a response to the gospel in no way makes it by the will of man.

Man's will is directed towards sin and self. Man's will is not free in any way. It is enslaved to sin.[Romans 6:6 & Romans 6:16]

God has the power to reach their hearts in an unregenerate state. Is God required or limited by our unregenerate state to only be able to save them in complete regeneration in order for them to choose to believe? Or is our God more powerful than that.

When God reaches them in their unregenerate state, He brings them to life. When we preach to the lost, we are preaching to a bunch of bones. Our words do not have the power to reach their spirit. Now, when God moves through those words in the gospel, He gives them a new heart, new eyes and ears and now they can respond.

Which also supports John 1:13. The debate here is just what is this drawing and how far does it go?

The Greek word used for 'draw' means to literally drag off. Now, God does not drag us to Him literally kicking and screaming, as if He does this against our will. But the manner is that He draws us effectually. The same word used for draw in John 6:44 is used in John 18:10 when Peter drew his sword and John 21:11 when Peter drew the net in. In both instances, the drawing was effectual in its manner.

I will have to leave off here for now.

Thanks for the discussion.

 

[SovereignGrace]

They do seek God if they have been drawn by God and their hearts opened up by God to choose to receive God. I'm sorry but simply saying we are dead in our sinful state does nothing to address the mechanics of what work God does in our hearts in the salvation process. No scripture says this comes first then this and then that other than we must believe, receive, and be saved. To speak on it beyond that is just simply not in scripture.

Well, the Greek word 'Nekros mean a literal corpse. In Abram's case, he was in a pagan land when God sought him out. Moses was in Midian when God found him. David was tending to the sheep in the mountains when God sent Samuel to him. Saul of Tarsus was on his way to bind Christians into prison when God knocked him off his ride. Adam and Eve ran from Him when He came into the Garden, and He found them hiding in the bushes.

The mechanics are we were dead and needed spiritual life. This life only comes from God. When we were dead spiritually, we did not have the ears(ears of the spirit man within us) to truly hear.

God has to do supernatural CPR to those who are spiritually dead.

When we are given a gift does reaching out and receiving it from the giver over show that it is no longer a gift but something we worked for? I am unaware of this being the case ever. yet when it comes to salvation our reformed brethren want to apply such logic that in no case anywhere else gets applied. If someone says Mark I have this gift for you do I just let my hands hang loose at my side and do nothing to receive it? When I do receive it does anyone say that I worked for that gift? Does opening a present up that was given to me for my birthday mean it is no longer a gift.

Yes you must receive the gift. Never stated anything contrary to this. Yet, dead ppl do not reach out and grab. If you are walking down the street and see someone clutch their chest and fall to the ground, you rush over and administer CPR to them. Did they receive CPR? Absolutely. But they did not have to reach out and receive it, to receive it. That is how God works. He gives life to the dead and they receive that life.

When we take things like Spiritual death and give it power beyond what God and do, in other words limit God because of the power of spiritual death then I think we have take our understanding of spiritual death too far.

But your side of this debate does not take spiritual death far enough, imo, of course. When we see things like 'let him who hath ears, hear', that means not everyone can hear what God is saying through His word. When we read 'you who were dead in trespasses and sins', it means we were dead spiritually. We were devoid of any spiritual life, seeing we were cutoff from God by Adam's sin.

Thanks again for the debate.

 

[tyndale1946]

Predestination and Disobedience

God predetermined that his children would have two natures. Galatians 5 describes the fleshly nature (called the sinful nature in some translations) and the spiritual nature. The characteristics of each nature are described. They battle each other for control of the believer’s life.

Since we are not perfect in this life, a consistent walk can be difficult. If we seek the Holy Spirit’s help, we may not carry out the wishes of the sinful nature. But, as 1 John points out, if we say we have no sin, we are a liar, and the truth is not in us.

How did God deal with our disobedience? He sent Christ. According to Romans 5, He obeyed for us totally and completely. Regardless of the circumstances, God looks through Christ and sees us perfectly obedient. This is “positional” obedience.

God cares about our daily walk with him also. If we disobey Him for a shorter or longer duration, He will chasten us. Pastor Charles Stanley (First Baptist Church of Atlanta, Georgia) says that God uses many ways to get believers back on course. He may use illness, accidents, messages from the pulpit, songs, confrontation by a friend, the loss of someone close to us, or an unexpected tragedy. Sometimes it’s a reaping of the natural consequences of whatever sin was committed.

What happens if the believer refuses to repent? God has ordained means to this end. One scripture comes to mind. In 1 Cor 11, Paul exhorts those abusing the Lord’s Supper to judge themselves or God will judge them. Some of the unrepentant were made ill, others were caused to die. But God said that they would not be condemned with the world.

Another scripture comes from Romans 8. There is, therefore, no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Christ says in the book of John, that there is no condemnation for those who believe in Him.

So, whatever we do, God will not abandon us. The “Unforgivable Sin” committed by the Jewish religious leaders, attributing Christ’s works to Satan, cannot be done today. It was their specific sin.

Believers that choose an ongoing life of sin will not reign with Christ in His Kingdom. Their position in the Kingdom will depend on whether any of their works (after salvation) survive the believer’s judgment described in 1 Cor 3. Certainly, these Carnal Christians will be saved “so as by fire.” But they will not receive the rewards that the faithful will.

Oh I agree whole heartedly and anyone that has NEVER taken a trip to GOD'S HOLY WOODSHED raise your hand... OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!... Does the Lord know how to lay it on... And does it smart... Daddy laid it on too but the Lord knows... When.. where... How... Why... And for how long until he gets our attention... Sometime we get a few stripes and sometimes many more... But the Father still loves his children and your sins will find you out (I speak from personal experience)... The rest of you speak for yourselves... And I will stop rattling on and let scripture speak... Brother Glen

Hebrews 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

 

[Mr. Davis]

Did God predestine marriage mates?

Or, does predestination only affect our eternal salvation?

 

[Revmitchell]

Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed, he gave the right to become children of God—[John 1:12] Now, I do not deny that ppl must receive Him. Now, who are the ones who receive Him? The answer is found in verse 13...children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. This passage could not be any clearer if it tried. Those who receive God must be born of Him first. that is the context of this passage.

Regardless of the response God requires from man it is still not man's will. If man chooses yes or no it is still not man's will. If God says to be saved one must stand on their head and stack BB's it is still not man's will. The will to save was accomplished in full by God who has the power and authority to give it. He also has the power and authority to not give it to anyone. Once the offer is made by God to man His response is irrelevant to who's will provided the salvation.

 

[MennoSota]

Did God predestine marriage mates?

Or, does predestination only affect our eternal salvation?

Does God ordain all things, even when those things are evil?

The simple answer is...yes.
"Should we accept only good things from the hand of God and never anything bad? ~ Job 2:10

 

[Yeshua1]

Predestination and Disobedience

God predetermined that his children would have two natures. Galatians 5 describes the fleshly nature (called the sinful nature in some translations) and the spiritual nature. The characteristics of each nature are described. They battle each other for control of the believer’s life.

Since we are not perfect in this life, a consistent walk can be difficult. If we seek the Holy Spirit’s help, we may not carry out the wishes of the sinful nature. But, as 1 John points out, if we say we have no sin, we are a liar, and the truth is not in us.

How did God deal with our disobedience? He sent Christ. According to Romans 5, He obeyed for us totally and completely. Regardless of the circumstances, God looks through Christ and sees us perfectly obedient. This is “positional” obedience.

God cares about our daily walk with him also. If we disobey Him for a shorter or longer duration, He will chasten us. Pastor Charles Stanley (First Baptist Church of Atlanta, Georgia) says that God uses many ways to get believers back on course. He may use illness, accidents, messages from the pulpit, songs, confrontation by a friend, the loss of someone close to us, or an unexpected tragedy. Sometimes it’s a reaping of the natural consequences of whatever sin was committed.

What happens if the believer refuses to repent? God has ordained means to this end. One scripture comes to mind. In 1 Cor 11, Paul exhorts those abusing the Lord’s Supper to judge themselves or God will judge them. Some of the unrepentant were made ill, others were caused to die. But God said that they would not be condemned with the world.

Another scripture comes from Romans 8. There is, therefore, no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Christ says in the book of John, that there is no condemnation for those who believe in Him.

So, whatever we do, God will not abandon us. The “Unforgivable Sin” committed by the Jewish religious leaders, attributing Christ’s works to Satan, cannot be done today. It was their specific sin.

Believers that choose an ongoing life of sin will not reign with Christ in His Kingdom. Their position in the Kingdom will depend on whether any of their works (after salvation) survive the believer’s judgment described in 1 Cor 3. Certainly, these Carnal Christians will be saved “so as by fire.” But they will not receive the rewards that the faithful will.

Persons who choose to live continually a sinful life were not even saved, correct?

 

[Yeshua1]

Does God ordain all things, even when those things are evil?

The simple answer is...yes.
"Should we accept only good things from the hand of God and never anything bad? ~ Job 2:10

I can hear now"but where is my free will?"

 

[Van]

I have not read the 5 pages of posts on this topic. Suffice to say, the OP regurgitated the usual bogus arguments for Calvinism. Lets return to the very first point reprinted from R. C. Sproul.

The Reformed view of election, known as unconditional election, means that God does not foresee an action or condition on our part that induces Him to save us. Rather, election rests on God’s sovereign decision to save whomever He is pleased to save.
In the book of Romans, we find a discussion of this difficult concept. Romans 9:11-13 reads: “And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—she was told, ‘The older will serve the younger.’ As it is written, ‘Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.’” Here the Apostle Paul is giving his exposition of the doctrine of election. He deals with it significantly in Romans 8, but here he illustrates his teaching of the doctrine of election by going back into the past of the Jewish people and looking at the circumstances surrounding the birth of twins—Jacob and Esau. In the ancient world, it was customary for the firstborn son to receive the inheritance or the patriarchal blessing. However, in the case of these twins, God reversed the process and gave the blessing not to the elder but to the younger. The point that the Apostle labors here is that God not only makes this decision prior to the twins’ births, He does it without a view to anything they would do, either good or evil, so that the purposes of God might stand. Therefore, our salvation does not rest on us; it rests solely on the gracious, sovereign decision of God.​

First, this is their argument for "unconditional election" for salvation of individuals before creation, before any human individuals were created. They equate the election of Jacob and Esau as babies still in the womb, with our election for salvation. As if to say since God chose some individuals before they had done anything good or bad, that somehow supports the bogus contention that God chooses individuals for salvation before they had done anything good or bad. Ludicrous

Next, note that the election was conditional, the older (Esau) would serve the younger (Jacob). So the election was based on an aspect of the individual, and not unconditional.

Third, the claim is made that the election is made "without a view to anything they would do." Really, what happened to the older would serve the younger?

In summary, Romans 9:11-13 does not support the bogus doctrine of "unconditional election" before creation for salvation. OTOH, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 teaches we are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth. Therefore we existed when chosen with faith, and we were not chosen based on foreseen faith, but actual faith. James 2:5 teaches those chosen are rich in faith, thus heirs to the promise made to those who love God. Verse after verse teaches conditional election during their lifetime based on God crediting their faith (or not) as righteousness. See Romans 4:4-5 and 4:23-24.

 

[Yeshua1]

I have not read the 5 pages of posts on this topic. Suffice to say, the OP regurgitated the usual bogus arguments for Calvinism. Lets return to the very first point reprinted from R. C. Sproul.


First, this is their argument for "unconditional election" for salvation of individuals before creation, before any human individuals were created. They equate the election of Jacob and Esau as babies still in the womb, with our election for salvation. As if to say since God chose some individuals before they had done anything good or bad, that somehow supports the bogus contention that God chooses individuals for salvation before they had done anything good or bad. Ludicrous

Next, note that the election was conditional, the older (Esau) would serve the younger (Jacob). So the election was based on an aspect of the individual, and not unconditional.

Third, the claim is made that the election is made "without a view to anything they would do." Really, what happened to the older would serve the younger?

In summary, Romans 9:11-13 does not support the bogus doctrine of "unconditional election" before creation for salvation. OTOH, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 teaches we are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth. Therefore we existed when chosen with faith, and we were not chosen based on foreseen faith, but actual faith. James 2:5 teaches those chosen are rich in faith, thus heirs to the promise made to those who love God. Verse after verse teaches conditional election during their lifetime based on God crediting their faith (or not) as righteousness. See Romans 4:4-5 and 4:23-24.

God basis for Election is His Will, and not upon ours!

 

[SovereignGrace]

Regardless of the response God requires from man it is still not man's will. If man chooses yes or no it is still not man's will. If God says to be saved one must stand on their head and stack BB's it is still not man's will. The will to save was accomplished in full by God who has the power and authority to give it. He also has the power and authority to not give it to anyone. Once the offer is made by God to man His response is irrelevant to who's will provided the salvation.

Not sure what you fully meant here. Please clarify.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I have not read the 5 pages of posts on this topic.

Then maybe you should.

As if to say since God chose some individuals before they had done anything good or bad,

There is no 'as if God' to it.

 

[Revmitchell]

Not sure what you fully meant here. Please clarify.

Hard to clarify when I do not know what it is you do not understand.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Hard to clarify when I do not know what it is you do not understand.

If man chooses yes or no it is still not man's will.