Election and the covenant

[psalms109:31]

children of Abraham

We are children of Abraham not by natural descent but by faith.

We are seeds of Abraham by faith.

Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness.

The seed will be like the sands of the sea shore. Satan through the pride of King David told him to count the people and God told him to count the people.

They went out and came back with a number and David realized that the promised wasn't fulfilled through him, that the people was not like the seeds of the sea shore.

 

[reformedbeliever]

bilateral means having 2 sides...not necessarily opposing sides. Besides, Christ does represent the elect in His relationship to the covenant.

As far as a covenant goes..... there are always two sides or more. But as far as this agreement goes, isn't it unilateral? Isn't God the Suzerane (sp?) and man the vassal? It is unilateral as far as God is the one stipulating the conditions? Not absolutely sure about this hense the question mark.

 

[TCGreek]

But isn't the covenant of grace bilateral?
The Reformed view of that covenant is that it is between God the Father and God the Son. We are only part of the covenant as we are found in Christ.

I think so too, but if you're of a different camp, you will not accept this position.

 

[TCGreek]

bilateral means having 2 sides...not necessarily opposing sides. Besides, Christ does represent the elect in His relationship to the covenant.

This is the genius of Scripture on the issue of the elect and the covenant.

 

[TCGreek]

Covenants were often one sided. But it is a mistake to try to make the Abrahamic covenant about salvation. It wasn't and isn't. It was about land, seed, and blessing. Salvation would come to people as a part of that. But the "covenant of grace" so many talk about has no biblical basis.

1. It is a mistake to think that the Abrahamic covenant was all about land, seed, and blessing.

2. Paul argues in Romans 4 that the Abrahamic covenant entails salvation by faith, so much so that Abraham is seen as the prototype of all those who will be saved by their faith.

 

[reformedbeliever]

But isn't the covenant of grace bilateral?
The Reformed view of that covenant is that it is between God the Father and God the Son. We are only part of the covenant as we are found in Christ.

Wow Larry! This just sunk in! I re-read this and I learned something new... or a view I had not noticed. Thank you brother. There is something good about this bb.....lol.

I had misread earlier. Thanks again. God bless.

 

[TCGreek]

In Dr. Robert L. Reymond's A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith, he cites Casper Olevianus (1536-1587), who studied with Calvin in Geneva and wrote The Substance of the Covenant of Grace Between God and the Elect (1585), where he makes the point that God the Father made a covenant with God the Son for the salvation of men (p. 504).

 

[Pastor Larry]

The biblical basis for a "covenant of grace" is the fact that there is a "new covenant" that is referred to in Heb 10:29 as having to do with the Spirit of "grace."

That the the blood of the new covenant, not a covenant of grace. The Spirit of grace is probably the Holy Spirit who gives grace.

The whole Bible after the fall speaks volumes about God's covenant with mankind being from His grace and not from our good deeds earning a place in the covenant.

So far as I know, the Bible never speaks of "God's covenant with mankind." It speaks of a Noahic covenant, an Abrahamic Covenant, a Mosaic covenant, a Davidic covenant, and a new covenant. Of all of these, the Noahic covenant is the only one that can be said to be with all mankind, and it is in fact with all creation that God will never destroy the world again with water in that way.

I am a "Covenanter" and believe that there are 2...Works and Grace.

The problem is that these covenants are not found in Scripture. There is no such covenant identified through exegesis; it is a template that is laid on Scripture (a template that has some significant weaknesses).

 

[Pastor Larry]

It wasn't about land, though it was included as a type and shadow. Abraham sought a heavenly country, not an earthly.

Sure, but the land promise is there. It was a promise that Abraham's seed would live in the land in peace for a very long period of time (olam in the Hebrew). That was a promise made to Abraham regarding his genetic descendants (which means it is not inherited by the church but by those who came from Isaac; Gen 15). It was a promise with a definable piece of real estate (River Euphrates to the River of Egypt; Gen 15). It was a promise made over and over again throughout Israel's history, even in the post exilic period (meaning that it wasn't fulfilled in Joshua's time or Solomon's time).

So while the land is not the whole promise, and while the land may be a type (though it is never said to be such that I can recall), it is a promise that must be fulfilled to Abraham's genetic descendants. That leads us to a premillennial position at the very least.

 

[menageriekeeper]

marking.......

 

[larryjf]

Wow Larry! This just sunk in! I re-read this and I learned something new... or a view I had not noticed. Thank you brother. There is something good about this bb.....lol.

I had misread earlier. Thanks again. God bless.

You are quite welcome, brother.

 

[Predestined]

You are quite welcome, brother.

.......you're a pretty good ole teacher.

 

[Pastor Larry]

We are children of Abraham not by natural descent but by faith.

We are seeds of Abraham by faith.

Not for the purposes of the Abrahamic covenant though. The mistake you guys are making is in omitting the parts of the AC that don't fit your theology. I think that to be inadequate. The point that Paul makes in Romans 4 and Gal 3 is not about the fulfilment of the Abrahamic covenant, but rather about salvation and how Abraham was an example of how salvation works. To be the "son" of something in that respect is to bear the characteristics. It is not dealing with God's specific promise to give Abraham a genetic seed (as opposed to Eleazar) with whom the covenant in its entirety would be fulfilled.

The seed will be like the sands of the sea shore.

If you note the context of this promise, it is the context of Abraham's genetic seed, not his spiritual seed. Again, you changing the promise to fit a theology. Gen 17:4 makes it clear that it would be genetic seed that would be the great number.

They went out and came back with a number and David realized that the promised wasn't fulfilled through him, that the people was not like the seeds of the sea shore.

Now you're just making stuff up. ... The Bible reveals nothing of this sort to us. It is pure conjecture, made apparently to support your preconceived position. The story of David's numbering the people is just that, and nothing more. It is the story of pride and disobedience, not a story about the AC

 

[Pastor Larry]

1. It is a mistake to think that the Abrahamic covenant was all about land, see, and blessing.

I presume by "see" you mean "seed." I can't see how you can say it is a mistake to think that the AC was all about this. Name something else that Scripture includes in the AC. I know of nothing.

2. Paul argues in Romans 4 that the Abrahamic covenant entails salvation by faith, so much so that Abraham is seen as the prototype of all those who will be saved by their faith.

No, not really. Romans 4 is about salvation by faith, not the AC. Paul uses Abraham as an example. He does not teach that the AC is only about salvation. Again, you guys are reading things into passages that aren't there, and ignoring things that are there.

 

[Pastor Larry]

The Reformed view of that covenant is that it is between God the Father and God the Son. We are only part of the covenant as we are found in Christ.

But does the reformed view have scriptural support? Not that I can find, and I have never seen anyone give any convincing support that didn't require the presumption of the position to begin with. In other words, the only way you can get there is to start there. If you didn't start with it, you would never get it from Scripture.

And I think that is an insurmountable problem. I can go to Scripture and defend every covenant I believe in because I see it there and it is called a covenant. I don't think your side can do the same thing.

 

[Charles Meadows]

Interesting thoughts...

But I still see a bit of tension between doctrines of justification by faith and unconditional election and the idea of a bilateral covenant.

 

[larryjf]

But does the reformed view have scriptural support? Not that I can find, and I have never seen anyone give any convincing support that didn't require the presumption of the position to begin with. In other words, the only way you can get there is to start there. If you didn't start with it, you would never get it from Scripture.

And I think that is an insurmountable problem. I can go to Scripture and defend every covenant I believe in because I see it there and it is called a covenant. I don't think your side can do the same thing.

Are you suggesting that we don't have to be found in Christ to be in covenant with God?

Some interesting things to note regarding the covenant with Abraham and how it was realized in Christ (speaking of the birth of Christ)...

He has helped his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy, as he spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his offspring forever." (Luk 1:54-55)

"Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, for he has visited and redeemed his people and has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David, as he spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old, that we should be saved from our enemies and from the hand of all who hate us; to show the mercy promised to our fathers and to remember his holy covenant, the oath that he swore to our father Abraham, to grant us (Luk 1:68-73)

Peter speaks of the salvation from Jesus as being a fulfillment of the covenant to Abraham that all nations would be blessed through him...

You are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant that God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, 'And in your offspring shall all the families of the earth be blessed.' God, having raised up his servant, sent him to you first, to bless you by turning every one of you from your wickedness." (Act 3:25-26)

Paul says that when God said all nations would be blessed through Abraham that He would justify the Gentiles by faith and was announcing the Gospel ahead of time to Abraham (Gal 3:8). So he says that all beleivers are blessed along with Abraham (Gal 3:9)...

And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "In you shall all the nations be blessed." So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. (Gal 3:8-9)

We also read of Christ confirming the promises given to the patriarchs...

For I tell you that Christ became a servant to the circumcised to show God's truthfulness, in order to confirm the promises given to the patriarchs, and in order that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written, "Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles, and sing to your name." (Rom 15:8-9)

We further read that it is in Jesus that the blessing of Abraham comes to the Gentiles so that we (Jews and Gentiles) might receive the promise...

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us--for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree"-- so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith. (Gal 3:13-14)

Thus the covenant with Abraham and the promises given in it are fulfilled in Christ and those that are found in Him.

 

[TCGreek]

I presume by "see" you mean "seed." I can't see how you can say it is a mistake to think that the AC was all about this. Name something else that Scripture includes in the AC. I know of nothing.

No, not really. Romans 4 is about salvation by faith, not the AC. Paul uses Abraham as an example. He does not teach that the AC is only about salvation. Again, you guys are reading things into passages that aren't there, and ignoring things that are there.

1. Paul gives us the interpretation of the seed promise from a redemptive history perspective: "so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
Gal 3:15 To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified.
Gal 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to seeds," referring to many, but referring to one, "And to your seed," who is Christ" (emphasis added).

2. Part of the AC is the Seed promise, which is Christ, and consequently faith in Him as Paul argues.

 

[TCGreek]

Interesting thoughts...

But I still see a bit of tension between doctrines of justification by faith and unconditional election and the idea of a bilateral covenant.

And the scriptural data point exclusively to the unilateral nature of the covenant.

 

[TCGreek]

Are you suggesting that we don't have to be found in Christ to be in covenant with God?

Some interesting things to note regarding the covenant with Abraham and how it was realized in Christ (speaking of the birth of Christ)...

He has helped his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy, as he spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his offspring forever." (Luk 1:54-55)

"Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, for he has visited and redeemed his people and has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David, as he spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old, that we should be saved from our enemies and from the hand of all who hate us; to show the mercy promised to our fathers and to remember his holy covenant, the oath that he swore to our father Abraham, to grant us (Luk 1:68-73)

Peter speaks of the salvation from Jesus as being a fulfillment of the covenant to Abraham that all nations would be blessed through him...

You are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant that God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, 'And in your offspring shall all the families of the earth be blessed.' God, having raised up his servant, sent him to you first, to bless you by turning every one of you from your wickedness." (Act 3:25-26)

Paul says that when God said all nations would be blessed through Abraham that He would justify the Gentiles by faith and was announcing the Gospel ahead of time to Abraham (Gal 3:8). So he says that all beleivers are blessed along with Abraham (Gal 3:9)...

And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "In you shall all the nations be blessed." So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. (Gal 3:8-9)

We also read of Christ confirming the promises given to the patriarchs...

For I tell you that Christ became a servant to the circumcised to show God's truthfulness, in order to confirm the promises given to the patriarchs, and in order that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written, "Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles, and sing to your name." (Rom 15:8-9)

We further read that it is in Jesus that the blessing of Abraham comes to the Gentiles so that we (Jews and Gentiles) might receive the promise...

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us--for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree"-- so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith. (Gal 3:13-14)

Thus the covenant with Abraham and the promises given in it are fulfilled in Christ and those that are found in Him.

Great handling of the scriptural data. :thumbsup: