Election and the many views of it?

[ReformedBaptist]

No disdain. I love you. I just think you're being a bit over dramatic. I think you really do understand what Joe meant.

I can accept that this is your impression Amy, but when I read Joe's statement I saw in it a "ho hum" attiutude, which he may have meant toward 'calvinism' but used the very words of Scripture save two. And it grieved my heart greatly.

What you see as over dramatic is my reverance for the doctrine of Scripture.

 

[FERRON BRIMSTONE]

I agree with most of your post, but man cannot be held responsible for rejecting that which was never offered. That is not justice. God is just and the only ones who will go to hell have willfully and knowingly rejected Christ.

You think too highly of your fellow Man. Through Adam We entered a fallen state called "Total Depravity". It means that by nature we are sinners, so the first chance we get we sin. Since this sin effects every part of our being we all knowingly and willingly reject Christ. It is only when he changes our hearts that we are able to do anything but reject him.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I get my understanding of justice from the only one who is just. Our Lord.

And you think your understanding of justice is perfect? I doubt that you would.

 

[Jarthur001]

Yes, God is patient, even with unbelievers.

allow me to post the full context..

You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault?

For who can resist his will?"

But who are you, O man, to answer back to God?

Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"

Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

 

[webdog]

You think too highly of your fellow Man. Through Adam We entered a fallen state called "Total Depravity". It means that by nature we are sinners, so the first chance we get we sin. Since this sin effects every part of our being we all knowingly and willingly reject Christ. It is only when he changes our hearts that we are able to do anything but reject him.

Eph 2:1 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins,

Sure sounds like we die spiritually through OUR trespasses and sins!

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Instead of debating the doctrine on matters of our understanding of justice, why doesn't someone (or several) attempt an exposition of the following:

2 Timothy 1
6Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.

7For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

8Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

10But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

11Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

 

[webdog]

allow me to post the full context..

You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault?

For who can resist his will?"

But who are you, O man, to answer back to God?

Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"

Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

If you wanted to post the full context, you would have alluded to the fact Romans 9 - 11 is in regards to Israel, and God was speaking of His right to choose one people (Israel) over another (gentiles).

 

[ReformedBaptist]

allow me to post the full context..

You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault?

For who can resist his will?"

But who are you, O man, to answer back to God?

Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"

Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

Perfect answer! It is always the answer of God to the objections!

 

[Jarthur001]

There is no third race. There is either guilty or not guilty. Infants are not guilty.

Eph 2:1 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins,

So we are not born "in Adam" till we sin?

 

[Jarthur001]

If you wanted to post the full context, you would have alluded to the fact Romans 9 - 11 is in regards to Israel, and God was speaking of His right to choose one people (Israel) over another (gentiles).

and that is what election is.

The right for God to chose a people. Welcome to Calvinism.

 

[webdog]

So we are not born "in Adam" till we sin?

Let me answer this question with a question...are we not "in Christ" until we have faith?

 

[Amy.G]

allow me to post the full context..

You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault?

For who can resist his will?"

But who are you, O man, to answer back to God?

Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"

Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

Like I said, God endures with much patience vessels of wrath. Who are the vessels of wrath? Unbelievers.

This whole section of scripture is about God bringing in the Gentiles as well as the Jews, not invidual salvation.

 

[Joe]

After sin was introduced, and God entered the garden looking for Adam, what did Adam do?

Genesis 3:10 So he said, "I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself."

He hid, and Man has been hiding from God ever since.

Adam and Eve were saved, so comparing them to the lost world is comparing apples and oranges.
They reacted to a new view of life. One that shocked them, and likely scared them.

We will not come to God on our own.. Rather we run from God and the acknowledgement of our sins.

The scripture you offered regarding Genesis doesn't back this up.

God desires that all of us would come to him, but none of us will come on our own. So God does not choose who will go to hell, we choose hell ourselves. The problem is without God calling us and convicting us of our sins, we will continue in them, thus rejecting God and deserving hell.

Scripture plz

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.

Ok so this is your scripture which is to show above? It doesn't even address it. let's see the WHOLE thing in context

Here is the NKJV verson

Romans 1:20 -25 "For since the creation of hte world, his invisible attributes are clearl seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, Because, althoughthey knew God, they did not Glorify him as God, nor were thankful but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkenned. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory ofhet incoruptible GOd into an image made like corruptable man-and birds and four footed creeping things. They also gave them up to uncleanliness, in the lusts of their hearts to dishonor their bodies among themselves. 25 Who exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

If you were to read this in context, it is directed at certain kinds of people, they are quite depraved and worshipping an idol. It is not directed at the lost in general nor does it relate to what you are trying to prove. They are choosing to reject God, so they will go to hell

The existence of the World and all that is in it is clear evidence of God, yet we will not come to him without him initiating the call by placing conviction and guilt on our hearts. Therefore God Chooses some of us, for his own Divine reasons and through no merit of our own, to bring to him.

Scripture? God chose SOME of us? So you happen to be it, right? What are his divine reasons for sending one to hell and the other to heaven?

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen."

That's a parable, making it much more difficult to understand. It appears a parable to a wedding paralleling what heaven will be like. All invites went out for the wedding and some guy showed up dressed improperly, not able to enter the event. Apparently he did this on purpose, so I agree. Some people will choose not to enter heaven or hell for whatever reasons.

Psalms 65:4 Blessed is the man You choose, And cause to approach You, That he may dwell in Your courts. We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Of Your holy temple.

Now we have a psalm, do you have any real verses?

This is the reason that Man is responsible if he goes to hell, but God deserves all the credit for salvation.

What is the reason? I missed something....scripture?

How did my Election come about? I was chosen before the foundation of the World.

Agreed

Ephesians1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

Agreed. Before he created the world his perfect plan was that everyone be saved but Eve ate the fruit and it got all screwed up.

Maybe if we chose one scripture, and included the 10 sentences before and after the scripture, we could present it in better context. If you have anything else, I would be interested. Thanks

 

[webdog]

and that is what election is.

The right for God to chose a people. Welcome to Calvinism.

If you believe this, then you have to agree that He chooses those who have faith in Christ since this is what the entire Bible tells us. Welcome to non-calvinism

 

[FERRON BRIMSTONE]

Eph 2:1 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins,

Sure sounds like we die spiritually through OUR trespasses and sins!

I pointed to Adam to show that sin is universal. I made clear that We all sin.

 

[Jarthur001]

If you wanted to post the full context, you would have alluded to the fact Romans 9 - 11 is in regards to Israel, and God was speaking of His right to choose one people (Israel) over another (gentiles).

Web...let me ask you this...

Do you feel this truth only applies to Israel?

You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault?

For who can resist his will?"

But who are you, O man, to answer back to God?

Are you saying a Gentile can answer back God?
Are you saying a Gentile can resist Gods will?
Are you saying a Gentile can find fault?

 

[webdog]

I pointed to Adam to show that sin is universal. I made clear that We all sin.

I'm confused now. Are you saying you do or don't hold to Total Depravity? Scripture states we die spiritually when we sin (Eph. 2, Rom. 7) which contradicts augustinian original sin.

 

[Jarthur001]

Like I said, God endures with much patience vessels of wrath. Who are the vessels of wrath? Unbelievers.

This whole section of scripture is about God bringing in the Gentiles as well as the Jews, not invidual salvation.

Salvation is not by a nation. Nations are made up of people. It has nothing to do with a land base

 

[webdog]

Web...let me ask you this...



Are you saying a Gentile can answer back God?
Are you saying a Gentile can resist Gods will?
Are you saying a Gentile can find fault?

No. God chose Israel, and the gentiles cannot question God as to why, nor change it, nor find God's choice of Israel as being something unjust.

 

[webdog]

Salvation is not by a nation. Nations are made up of people. It has nothing to do with a land base

I don't recall Amy saying salvation was by a nation. Romans 9 - 11 is about God's selection of Israel still, though.