Election before Time?

[jbh28]

Take careful note it does not say "before the foundation of the world." The Greek word is "apo" and means out of, from, etc, never "before."

Acts 7:45, 1 John 2:28




- yes, I know that "before" here has a different meaning.

 

[webdog]

Christ was chosen before the foundation of the world. We were chosen before the foundation of the world. We were saved in time. Christ was slain in time.

You left off chosen in Him! That is key. As I said there can be no before (a word connected to time itself) the very advent of time! Clearly it is not literal. Did you exist prior to your conception? It's a logical falacy.

 

[jbh28]

You left off chosen in Him! That is key. As I said there can be no before (a word connected to time itself) the very advent of time! Clearly it is not literal. Did you exist prior to your conception? It's a logical falacy.

Of course we were chosen in Him. When were we chosen in Him? We were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. It's eternal. Has always been. I didn't exist yet, but I don't need to exist for God to choose me.

 

[webdog]

Of course we were chosen in Him. When were we chosen in Him? We were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. It's eternal. Has always been. I didn't exist yet, but I don't need to exist for God to choose me.

You are completely ignoring the fact there is no "before" the creation of time. I understand why as your doctrine demands a linear order, but you cannot take something meant figurtively as literal.

 

[jbh28]

You are completely ignoring the fact there is no "before" the creation of time. I understand why as your doctrine demands a linear order, but you cannot take something meant figurtively as literal.

I said it's eternal. Did you not catch that. The Bible says before, so it's perfectly fine for me to say that. I understand that it's eternal.

 

[webdog]

I said it's eternal. Did you not catch that. The Bible says before, so it's perfectly fine for me to say that. I understand that it's eternal.

Depends entirely what you mean by eternal. If you are insisting on it still depending on taking before as literal, it cannot be eternal. The Bible also says Christ is a door, a lamb, has a sword coming from His mouth and is a consuming fire...yet we take none of this literally.

I think my position is supported biblically, scientifically and logically.

 

[jbh28]

Depends entirely what you mean by eternal. If you are insisting on it still depending on taking before as literal, it cannot be eternal. The Bible also says Christ is a door, a lamb, has a sword coming from His mouth and is a consuming fire...yet we take none of this literally.

I think my position is supported biblically, scientifically and logically.

Eternal to me means always existed. God is eternal. There has never been a point that he didn't exist. (So God was before the foundation of the world and during and after all at the same time)

So when it says we were chosen in Him before... We were not chosen in time.

 

[Allan]

I'll have to disagree with the first part. There is no "before" the creation of "before". It's like a person existing before they were conceived. I think much of that language to be anthropomorphic as there is no before or after with an omnipresent God.

But we did exist before we were created, in the mind of God, knowing fully all things. Both all that we would do and equally all that He will do.
It is the very reason scripture states - He declares the end from the beginning. (Isa 46;10) simply put - Before He declares in the beginning He already knows the end - which is why He can state what will happen before it has even become a reality.

While it is true that the term 'before' when dealing with God in eternity is anthropomorphic, how ever the language of this does not constitute such a reading. Reason - because the issue being discussed is specifically regarding time as it references an object both of and in time -world.

Check out the usage of the phrasing (from or before the foundation of the World), and you will note that it is not anthropomorphic. Just because God is Himself outside of time does not necessitate that he is equally apart from it when interacts with it. Once he creates the world (and by extension creation) He is interacting with it and therefore making time itself. Thus anything prior to that event, IS 'before' as it relates to items of time yet to be made.

Thus God's thoughts and plans were established before He created His creation, which is why He also knew as well that man would fall and be in need of a savior and that Christ would be that savior. This is why God isn't learning (as in not knowing/being aware) as time goes along for us.

 

[webdog]

Eternal to me means always existed. God is eternal. There has never been a point that he didn't exist. (So God was before the foundation of the world and during and after all at the same time)

So when it says we were chosen in Him before... We were not chosen in time.

I agree with most of that, but unless God chooses unbelievers too, His choice consists of those in Christ which happens in time. If you maintain God chose us TO salvation in eternity you have qualified eternal as being linear.

 

[jbh28]

I agree with most of that, but unless God chooses unbelievers too, His choice consists of those in Christ which happens in time. If you maintain God chose us TO salvation in eternity you have qualified eternal as being linear.

That's how the Bible presents it so I will to. If you don't agree, that's fine.

 

[webdog]

While it is true that the term 'before' when dealing with God in eternity is anthropomorphic, how ever the language of this does not constitute such a reading. Reason - because the issue being discussed is specifically regarding time as it references an object both of and in time -world.

Agreed, hence there is no "in Christ" prior to being in Him

Check out the usage of the phrasing (foundation of the World), and you will note that it is not anthropomorphic.

when it is taken as a whole phrase it must be

Just because God is Himself outside of time does not necessitate that he is equally apart from it when interacts with it. Once he creates the world (and by extension creation) He is interacting with it and thus making time itself. Thus anything prior to that event, IS 'before' as it relates to items of time yet to be made.

agreed

Thus God's thoughts and plans were established before He created His creation, which is why He also knew He would know that man would fall and be in need of a savior. This is why God isn't learning (as in not knowing/being aware) as time goes along.

Now we are back to planning "before" the creation of "before". I maintain God exists at all points in and outside of time...at the same time and any plans coincide with this divine attribute.

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

Take careful note it does not say "before the foundation of the world." The Greek word is "apo" and means out of, from, etc, never "before.".

Van— And if your refering to Eph 1:4 (not sure) the preposition pro is used, not apo. Maybe I need to read the whole thread. But if your refering to Rev 13:8 apo is used & does mean from, in the sense that something has been in process from the begining of the world. When the preposition pro is used as in Eph 1:4, it has the meaning of before the foundation or creation. One question though--who did you find that said "apo" can never mean "before"?

 

[Allan]

Agreed, hence there is no "in Christ" prior to being in Him
when it is taken as a whole phrase it must be
agreed

Now we are back to planning "before" the creation of "before". I maintain God exists at all points in and outside of time...at the same time and any plans coincide with this.

You haven't established why it must be understood figuratively, especially when the object being discussed is an object of and in time.

Also, there is 'In Christ', according the knowledge of God but NOT in reality within time, till that time come. Thus though it is 'in the mind of God' we will be/are His, yet we are not yet till that time has transpired for us and become saved.

Crude illustration:
It is like in martial arts. As an instructor you know what the people 'can' do, even if they have not yet done it for themselves. Yet you do not act as though it is something already done. You must wait for that time to come to pass, that it become a reality what was known in the mind of the instructor.

Lastly, to your last point.. It does not change the fact, and in fact, works in tandem with exactly what I have been saying. God being in all time still knows what is, before it is.. and establishes my point... He knew/knows before it comes to be.

 

[Iconoclast]

good posts allan....I think you have spelled it out clearly.

Van.....you have departed from the truth.....it is almost like listening to harold camping on the radio, to read your posts.
Everyone has tried to help you, but it is getting worse.

 

[webdog]

You haven't established why it must be understood figuratively, especially when the object being discussed is an object of and in time.

Also, there is 'In Christ', according the knowledge of God but NOT in reality within time, till that time come. Thus though it is 'in the mind of God' we will be/are His, yet we are not yet till that time has transpired for us and become saved.

Crude illustration:
It is like in martial arts. As an instructor you know what the people 'can' do, even if they have not yet done it for themselves. Yet you do not act as though it is something already done. You must wait for that time to come to pass, that it become a reality what was known in the mind of the instructor.

Lastly, to your last point.. It does not change the fact, and in fact, works in tandem with exactly what I have been saying. God being in all time still knows what is, before it is.. and establishes my point... He knew/knows before it comes to be.

We didn't exist before the foundation of the world to be chosen, meaning it cannot be literal. I see nothing from the text stating what you said about it being in the mind of God. I'm not questioning His omniscience either, but given the exact same language is used in describing Christ being slain, the text in question is dealing with us being in Him

 

[Van]

Gabriel, the verse being discussed is Rev. 13:8. The word is apo, not pro.

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

Gabriel, the verse being discussed is Rev. 13:8. The word is apo, not pro.

gottcha---Admittedly apo is most often not translated as 'before', but it does have the possibility of this meaning. Although in Rev 13:8—‘from’ is certainly the better translation atleast imo. Hey does tht mean we actually agree on something--man what is this world coming to-

 

[Van]

Reply to Allen

But we did exist before we were created, in the mind of God, knowing fully all things. Both all that we would do and equally all that He will do.
It is the very reason scripture states - He declares the end from the beginning. (Isa 46;10) simply put - Before He declares in the beginning He already knows the end - which is why He can state what will happen before it has even become a reality.

While it is true that the term 'before' when dealing with God in eternity is anthropomorphic, how ever the language of this does not constitute such a reading. Reason - because the issue being discussed is specifically regarding time as it references an object both of and in time -world.

Check out the usage of the phrasing (from or before the foundation of the World), and you will note that it is not anthropomorphic. Just because God is Himself outside of time does not necessitate that he is equally apart from it when interacts with it. Once he creates the world (and by extension creation) He is interacting with it and therefore making time itself. Thus anything prior to that event, IS 'before' as it relates to items of time yet to be made.

Thus God's thoughts and plans were established before He created His creation, which is why He also knew as well that man would fall and be in need of a savior and that Christ would be that savior. This is why God isn't learning (as in not knowing/being aware) as time goes along for us.

I think you need to rethink this. No scripture says we were created before we were created. This is a pagan idea. You have no basis for claiming what was in the mind of God. You have a finite mind, and so unless scripture says something is so, to say it is so is simple conjecture and should not be taught as doctrine from God's Word.

Next, scripture does not say God knows the end, it says God declares the end, and thus He predestines whatever He declares. Stop adding to scripture the conjecture of men. Next it does not say He declared "in the beginning, another twisting of scripture to fit man-made doctrine. Whenever He declares something, such as what His prophets say, He causes that end to come about. He fulfills, or brings about what He declares, He does not look at some imaginary crystal ball.

 

[Van]

There is no lexicon that supports the Calvinist redefinition of apo as sometimes meaning before. It means out of or from. It cannot by logical necessity mean before, because you cannot come out of something before that something exists.

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

There is no lexicon that supports the Calvinist redefinition of apo as sometimes meaning before. It means out of or from. It cannot by logical necessity mean before, because you cannot come out of something before that something exists.

Actually off the top of my head I remember Mr Strong (although I rarely use his concordance) having ‘before’ as one of the many definitions for apo. Remember Greek terms can have several meanings. But like I said Iactually agree that Rev 13:8 should be rendered 'from'.