Election before Time?

[Skandelon]

The approach is all wrong here, from both of you, IMO. You both make the same mistake by presuming that Paul is speaking about God's choice of individuals to salvation, but that is not the case (as I just explained). Let me give an illustration as an example.

Suppose there was an army recruiter who works all year recruiting soldiers. He made appeals to many students, and in a year's time he successfully signs up 100 recruits. Now, those 100 solders were all assigned to the same troop and the recruiter writes them saying, "I chose you to be the best conditioned soldiers before this season ever began. I predetermined to mentor and train you to be the best fighting force this army has ever seen!"

Does that mean that he didn't attempt to recruit other soldiers? Of course not. The intent is simply to point out what these men were called to be, not to exclude the possibility that others might have accepted the recruiter's appeal to join the army. Make sense?

I'm not asking you to agree. Just confirm that you understand this perspective.

 

[jbh28]

The approach is all wrong here, from both of you, IMO. You both make the same mistake by presuming that Paul is speaking about God's choice of individuals to salvation, but that is not the case (as I just explained). Let me give an illustration as an example.

Suppose there was an army recruiter who works all year recruiting soldiers. He made appeals to many students, and in a year's time he successfully signs up 100 recruits. Now, those 100 solders were all assigned to the same troop and the recruiter writes them saying, "I chose you to be the best conditioned soldiers before this season ever began. I predetermined to mentor and train you to be the best fighting force this army has ever seen!"

Does that mean that he didn't attempt to recruit other soldiers? Of course not. The intent is simply to point out what these men were called to be, not to exclude the possibility that others might have accepted the recruiter's appeal to join the army. Make sense?

I'm not asking you to agree. Just confirm that you understand this perspective.

I wouldn't say that only the poor in the world were chosen. Of course James is only referring to the ones that were being persecuted and told the people that even the poor have been chosen.

 

[Skandelon]

Was that response meant for me, because that didn't address my post? Did you mean that as a response to Van's post earlier?

 

[jbh28]

Was that response meant for me, because that didn't address my post? Did you mean that as a response to Van's post earlier?

I was addressing...

Does that mean that he didn't attempt to recruit other soldiers? Of course not. The intent is simply to point out what these men were called to be, not to exclude the possibility that others might have accepted the recruiter's appeal to join the army. Make sense?

Maybe I didn't understand your point.

 

[Skandelon]

I'm sorry, but I have no idea what God's choosing of only the poor and James has to do with my post. I'm trying to follow, I really am, but I am completely confused by that response...

 

[jbh28]

I'm sorry, but I have no idea what God's choosing of only the poor and James has to do with my post. I'm trying to follow, I really am, but I am completely confused by that response...

Paul, James....I misread the name.


Are you saying that there are other people that get saved that God didn't choose to save? Or are you saying that Ephesians 1 isn't about election to salvation, adoption...

 

[Skandelon]

Paul, James....I misread the name.


Are you saying that there are other people that get saved that God didn't choose to save?

No, I'm saying that God has chosen for believers ("us") to be adopted and to be conformed to his image. NOT, that God has chosen for certain individuals to become believers. Please go back and read the army illustration again with that in mind and maybe it will make more sense.

Or are you saying that Ephesians 1 isn't about election to salvation, adoption...

Adoption is not equated with salvation (justification). In Romans 8 Paul says we (believers) are eagerly awaiting our adoption, so that is something that isn't complete within us, but we KNOW it is coming because God has predestined that all who believe will be adopted.

Understand? Again, I'm not asking for agreement. I just want confirmation that you understand this perspective.

 

[jbh28]

No, I'm saying that God has chosen for believers ("us") to be adopted and to be conformed to his image. NOT, that God has chosen for certain individuals to become believers. Please go back and read the army illustration again with that in mind and maybe it will make more sense.

You can't have one without the other. You can't separate one part of salvation(justification) with adoption.

Adoption is not equated with salvation (justification). In Romans 8 Paul says we (believers) are eagerly awaiting our adoption, so that is something that isn't complete within us, but we KNOW it is coming because God has predestined that all who believe will be adopted.

Understand? Again, I'm not asking for agreement. I just want confirmation that you understand this perspective.

I understand what you are saying. You are saying that God has chosen that those that get saved he will do.....(adoption...)

 

[Skandelon]

You can't have one without the other. You can't separate one part of salvation(justification) with adoption.

I agree. You can't separate them. If someone chooses to follow Christ by faith (justified), God has predetermined that they will be adopted.

I understand what you are saying. You are saying that God has chosen that those that get saved he will do.....(adoption...)

I can't tell if you really do understand based upon this statement alone.

 

[webdog]

You can't have one without the other. You can't separate one part of salvation(justification) with adoption.


I understand what you are saying. You are saying that God has chosen that those that get saved he will do.....(adoption...)

Wasn't this the same conversation we just had?

 

[jbh28]

Wasn't this the same conversation we just had?

Maybe. The choosing that God did was for all aspects of salvation. He chose to save you. That includes justification, regeneration, sanctification, adoption, glorification... The election was personal. It's just not that God has decided to adopt those that get saved(which he has of course) but that he chose all parts of salvation. He chose to save you.

 

[webdog]

Maybe. The choosing that God did was for all aspects of salvation. He chose to save you. That includes justification, regeneration, sanctification, adoption, glorification... The election was personal. It's just not that God has decided to adopt those that get saved(which he has of course) but that he chose all parts of salvation. He chose to save you.

You are taking "chose" to a place Scripture does not. Of course He chose all points of salvation including the means and details, but that doesn't logically preclude He chose you "for" salvation as you are connecting it to.

 

[jbh28]

You are taking "chose" to a place Scripture does not. Of course He chose all points of salvation including the means and details, but that doesn't logically preclude He chose you "for" salvation as you are connecting it to.

So you separate that out. He only chose us for parts after justification. Are you saying that there is no election for salvation?

 

[webdog]

So you separate that out. He only chose us for parts after justification. Are you saying that there is no election for salvation?

No, I'm denying your understanding of election unto salvation.

 

[jbh28]

No, I'm denying your understanding of election unto salvation.

And by what I have said here, what understanding is that?

 

[Skandelon]

The choosing that God did was for all aspects of salvation. He chose to save you. That includes justification, regeneration, sanctification, adoption, glorification... The election was personal.

But the scripture doesn't actually say all that. It only tells us what believers are predestined to become. It never says that certain individuals are predestined/chosen to become believers. You are presuming that on to the text.

He chose to save you.

Agree. He chose to save me, someone who confessed with my mouth and believed in my heart that Jesus is Lord. He chose to adopt all who believe.

 

[webdog]

And by what I have said here, what understanding is that?

The way you have handled that particular text. As Skan has pointed out, you read more into it than is there. Believers are predestined to be conformed into Christ's image...that is the truth of the text. Anything added to that is eisegesis.

 

[Dr. Bob]

10-page limit

Thankful that God knew me (intimate relationship) before the foundation of the world and chose me to be the undeserving recepient of His grace.

The whole debate on election hinges on who does the electing. Some on the thread speak of God selecting men to receive unmerited grace. Others of man selecting God.

Interesting to see the hearts demonstrated in the words here (out of what is stored in the heart comes our words).