Featured Election before Time?

and three strikes your out Van...lol




John 15:16: "Ye did not choose me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that ye should go and bear fruit."



The object to be attained cannot be the cause.



John 17:2: "As thou gavest him authority over all flesh, that whatsoever thou hast given him to them he should give eternal life." (See also verse 6-12).



Acts 22:14: Ananias says to Paul, "The God of our fathers hath appointed thee to know his will."



Eph. 1:5: In the fourth verse having referred to God's choice of us before the foundation of the world, he says in this fifth verse: "Having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace."



Eph.1:11: We are said to be predestinated to our inheritance "according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will."



James 1:18: "Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth."



b. Such as deny merit in the persons elected as well as assert the sovereign choice of God. Ezek. 36:32; In this passage after describing the blessings connected with the new dispensation and the gift of the Spirit and the new heart which He would give them, — gifts which the Calvinistic theory regards as the result of election, but which the Arminian maintains to be its cause,— God adds: "Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord God, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your ways, 0 house of Israel."



John 1:11-13: "He came unto his own, and they that were his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."



Rom. 9:11-16: Election is illustrated by the case of the twins "The children being not yet born, neither having done anything, good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth ... So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy."



Rom. 11:5, 6: "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. But if it is by grace, it is no more of works; otherwise grace is no more grace."



c. Such as so describe the persons chosen as to imply this.



Matt. 11:25, 26: "At that season Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, 0 Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding and didst reveal them unto babes; yea, Father, for so it was well pleasing in thy sight."



Luke 4:25-27: Christ illustrates this sovereignty of God by mentioning that many widows had been in Israel, yet had only a heathen widow been blessed; and again many lepers cured. "Of a truth I say unto you, There were many widows in Israel in the days of Elijah . . . and unto none of them was Elijah sent, but only to Zarepath in the land of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow. And there were many lepers in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, but only Naaman the Syrian."



Acts 26:12-23: Paul's description of his personal condition at his conversion shows that God chose him not for his merits but from His own good pleasure.



I Cor. 1:26-30: "For behold your calling, brethren, how that not many wise after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called; but God chose the foolish things of the world that he might put to shame them that are wise; and God chose the weak things of the world that he might put to shame the things that are strong; and the base things of the world, and the things that are despised, did God choose, yea, and the things that are not, that he might bring to naught the things that are, that no flesh should glory before God. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus," etc.



Gal. 1:15, 16: Paul says, "When it was the good pleasure of God, who separated me even from my mother's womb, and called me through his grace, to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach," etc.



Eph. 2:1-13: The description of the condition of those who were dead in trespasses and sins, and in that state were quickened, proves that the quickening and salvation was due to no merit of their own.



The tests thus exhibited under these three classes prove conclusively that not on account of their own merits, but because of the good pleasure of God, does He choose men. They have been presented at some length, because this is after all the point upon which all that is important in this controversy turns. For, although other matters are equally essential to the doctrine, the whole opposition arises from an unwillingness on the part of man to recognize the sovereignty of God, and to ascribe salvation entirely to grace.



This proof, however, has been by no means exhausted, the attempt having been to select some only of the numerous passages, and mainly such as from their conciseness allow of presentation in full. Let the Scriptures be read with reference to this doctrine, and every passage marked which indicates God's dealing with men as an absolute sovereign, and also every declaration which ascribes election or the fruits of it to His choice and not to the will or acts of men, and every illustration afforded that this is God's usual method, and it will appear that scarcely any book of Scripture will fail to furnish testimony to the fact that in the acts of grace, no less than those of providence, God "doeth according to His will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth." (Dan. 4:3-5).

 

Iconoclast, Curious question for you sir.

with that John 6:37 verse

The first half - I can see how it could be read as the view of those used by irresistable grace to be brought to Christ. The latter half though. "him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." it reads as this person is coming to Christ - on their accord even, They are coming to Him, vs the first half of the father giving to the son.

How would you as a full bred Calvinist explain the latter half? just curious. This isnt an attempt to poke anyone in the eye, im genuinely inquiring.

 

BaptistJG;

Hello Bjg..welcome to BB...good question...any sincere question is welcomed.

Jesus came to die a Covenant death for the elect. This is described in this verse.....As.....ALL the Father gives to me ...SHALL come to me....see it???
1] All who are given to the SON

2] Shall Come.....it is certain....

3] then to complete the thought...Jesus says about those who SHALL COME ...and him that comes to me...it is the same persons

Those given to the Son are effectually drawn by the Father as in Jn 6;44
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day


Jesus speaks this way because he has covenanted with the Father to die or take upon himself the seed of Abraham...who are all IN HIM...

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

The same language is used by The Spirit in Hebrews 2....

12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

JG...I posted a true list of the verses that were falsely spoken of by Van, who has been corrected by many persons here on BB...but insists on posting distortions ...look at what JL.Dagg offered as a contrast !

 

Jg...here are some more:
ELECTION



By J. M. PENDLETON

(1811-1891)



Outstanding Baptist Scholar of the late 19th Century; Author of CHURCH MANUAL, CHRISTIAN DOCTRINES, DISTINCTIVE BAPTIST PRINCIPLES, etc.



While there is nothing in predestination which forbids its use in the sense of the foreordination of all events, it is commonly employed with reference to human beings. It comprehends the purpose of election, and also, as will be shown, the purpose of "reprobation," as it has been called, which, as has been well said, "is nothing more than withholding from some the grace which is imparted to others." These two purposes may be expressed thusly:



"That God chose in Christ certain persons of the fallen race of Adam, before the foundation of the world, unto eternal glory, according to His own purpose and grace, without regard to their foreseen faith and good works, or any conditions performed by them;" and that from the rest of mankind He withheld His grace and left them to dishonor and the just punishment of their sins.



The ideas brought to view in this statement need and deserve expansion. I may therefore say—



1. Election Is Personal



The choice exercised is a choice of persons. It is a choice of persons as distinguished from nations. The Jews were in one sense an elect nation, but their election from among the nations had no special reference to eternal life, to which persons are elected; and in addition to this, they were the only elect nation the world ever saw. But to see that election is not national, we need only turn, to Revelation 5:9:



"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof; for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation."



Here we are plainly taught that salvation is not national deliverance, but that the saved are redeemed out of every nation. An electic operation is referred to— persons selected out of nations. The theory of national election cannot be maintained as the doctrine of the New Testament.



Election is not only personal as distinguished from national, but it is of individuals as distinguished from individuals. The line of discrimination runs between persons. When Paul says in Romans 16:13, "Salute Rufus, chosen in the Lord," the reference must be to personal election, as also when he writes to the members of the Thessalonian church,



"God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation." — II Thess. 2:13.



Peter, in writing to the "strangers scattered abroad," addressing them as "elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father," must have meant personal election.



If it is said that the election of some is the rejection of others, it may be remarked: Rejection is a term needlessly strong, and it is preferable to say that God has left others as they were. The decree of election leaves them where they would have been had there been no election of any. No injustice is done them. The truth is, election is injustice to none, while it is an unspeakable blessing to some. It takes a multitude which no man can number, but which God can number, out of the fallen race of Adam, and raises them up to hope and Heaven.


II. Election Is Eternal



In proof of this, the following passages may be quoted:



"According as he hath chosen us in him BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love." — Ephesians 1:4.



"Who hath saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN."— II Timothy 1:9.



"God hath FROM THE BEGINNING chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth." — II Thess. 2:13.



After what has been said concerning the eternity of God, and the consequent eternity of His purposes, it is not necessary to enlarge on a point so plain as that His election of His people is from eternity. Election, being inseparable from the divine purposes, is as eternal as they. As it has to do with eternal life, it is eternal, as going back to the un-beginning past and forward to the unending future.


III. Election Was Not In View of Foreseen Faith And Good Works



There are some who make faith and good works the ground of election. That is, they suppose that God elected His people because He foresaw their faith and good works. This view transposes cause and effect, for it makes election dependent on faith and good works, whereas faith and good works are Scripturally dependent on election. When we read, "chosen . . . that we should be holy," it is obvious that the election is not because of holiness, but in order to holiness.



The purpose of election contemplates the sanctification of the elect, and therefore regards them as sinners needing sanctification. The same truth is suggested by the words,



"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son."—Romans 8:29.



Here evidently the predestination, including election, did not find its basis or reason in the conformity of the predestinated to the image of Christ, but the conformity is the result of the predestination.



As to the much-controverted passage in Acts 13:48. "And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed," the only natural interpretation is that they believed because of their ordination to eternal life. The Arminian view is without foundation in the Word of God; for election is the source, the only source, whence spring faith, holiness, and good works.

 

still have to read through all you have posted, However I feel like you would like this book I purchased...I was looking for a book that wasnt reformed theology however it ended up being reformed.

Elemental Theology
emery H. Bancroft

dont know if you ever heard of it. Sounds like your kind of book though. Anyway, back to my reading.

 

here is another short one as an antidote to the false ideas spoken of by those who resist the truth....

II. Election Is Eternal



In proof of this, the following passages may be quoted:



"According as he hath chosen us in him BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love." — Ephesians 1:4.



"Who hath saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN."— II Timothy 1:9.



"God hath FROM THE BEGINNING chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth." — II Thess. 2:13.



After what has been said concerning the eternity of God, and the consequent eternity of His purposes, it is not necessary to enlarge on a point so plain as that His election of His people is from eternity. Election, being inseparable from the divine purposes, is as eternal as they. As it has to do with eternal life, it is eternal, as going back to the un-beginning past and forward to the unending future.

 

JG...it is okay....it was one of my first books.....

if you want to understand the teaching...read those who believe it like this;

http://sglblibrary.homestead.com/fi...pitstsOnSovereignty5.htm#testimoniesofthepast

http://sglblibrary.homestead.com/fi...tstsOnSovereignty.htm#bibledoctrineofelection

http://sglblibrary.homestead.com/fi...ereignty3.htm#ifsomeareelectwhypreachspurgeon

 

What does the phrase "btfotw " mean? Does it mean before time?

Before down casting of system. What system and when? Is before, relative to when the system was down cast? Would, "before," be before, "Let there be light"?

Did God predetermine His Son, born of woman before there was a woman who had been taken from a man to be created in the image of Himselfs? His Son who would shed His blood for redemption? What is one redeemed from? What had God determined to destroy before he down cast the system to bring about the means of destruction?

What is the purpose of election of those from that system that was down cast? See Hebrews 2:5 and 6 and 9 with Romans 8:29 for a maybe.

 

Some of this stuff is pretty cerebral for me. I see your position on the first text I mentioned, I can see now the link of the eternal security aspect.

I take issue with the method of the way that writer, takes specific lines that have anything to do with predestination and lines them all up and then kinda says "See this what im saying!". We could make some crazy doctrines up if we just took 8 verses that have some sort of common thread and then gave it a title you know?

So Ill have to keep reading through my Bible and see, I have been studying the Calvinistic position and others for quite sometime and while I see, how that (Calvinism) position could be seen, I find a lot of verses in my Bible that just directly say that these things can't be true.

However!

You took the time to put those posts together which is appreciated and I do enjoy the reading and wading through the information to give the brain some blood and practice my thinking skills, Ill continue reading on and learning.

 

Holy freakin' cow.

We were chosen in the One Who is eternal. To any rational, educated individual, eternity is without beginning or end.

Note: this is response is for the reader, not the poster, as he is wiser in his own eyes than seven men who can give a reason.

 

ROFL! :smilewinkgrin:

 

no, it contradicts your position needing these verses to be taken literally to make your doctrine work.

1. I was not discussing God but something occurring before time. Before is a linear phrase requiring time to even make sense. 2. We don't know when angels were created. Since they are created, they are also not timeless.

The entire premix above only works if God is restrained by time, not to mention, you cannot provide one passage where election occurs apart from Christ. We are only in Christ within time, although Christ is eternal. It is a paradox that appears to contradict ala Christ being 100% God and 100% man...but we accept it as truth by faith. It still does not discount the fact the language employed of God doing something before time is anthropomorphic given His nature.

 

Note to the reader: when the above troll wishes to discuss what is actually said it would be the first time here on the BB.

 

webdog

Or...it is quite simply stated the biblical position:thumbsup:

OKay, thanks for clarifying....i did not think you were really saying that.It is just that we as finite beings are totally dependant on God to reveal the secret things to us...and he has revealed much ....all that we need for life and godliness.

Without splitting hairs...I believe time existed before God gave man the sun and the moon as time keepers.

Webdog.....instead of thinking that God is restrained by time{he is supra temporal}....what if God has designed to enter into the realm of time as he entered into it in the incarnation....

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Why would i want to do that? I fully believe that the covenant of redemption made in eternity past included the decree to elect a multitude of sinners to be saved in UNION with Christ.....certainly not apart from Him.
They were given by the Father to the Son...and he comes in the fulness of time to redeem them...

Creation itself would not have happened if the mediator of the covenant was not in place.
Every expression of Divine love and mercy is only possible because of this fact.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

I do not agree in this way...it was already a fact even before creation.I do agree that we had to be born dead sinners at conception, children of wrath even as others who needed to be saved in real time...but the covenant and accomplishment of redemption was fixed and certain....

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

this is clear and plain language and no matter how often van attempts to explain away verse after verse....the truth stands.....with Van on the sidelines protesting and twisting the wording of all such verses...This one was left off his list, but do not fear ..he will attempt to twist this one also:laugh:

Webdog...i do not think this truth can be written any clearer...are you sure it is perhaps you that is not getting these kind of verses to "fit" into your scheme.That leaves you seeking to deny what we cals rejoice in????

i can partially agree that God does employ language that we can understand...like...God bears his mighty arm....or let us go down and see.

That is not the case here at all:wavey:

 

VAN

Sorry you find the truth"mind boggling".....it must have boggled your mind because adoption is true for every believer here and now....we are adopted as sons ...now...

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

My dear twaddle master...as you have sought to disparage JL Dagg...I will let him do the honors of responding to you;

 

Why do you insist on painting a picture of God Who is not omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent?