Election before Time?

[Mexdeaf]

Why do you insist on painting a picture of God Who is not omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent?

Some prefer a God they can define, understand and control rather than the alternative.

 

[Yeshua1]

1) I would guess that there are some who believe they are serving Jesus, like those of Matthew 7:21-23. But Paul tells us when we consider if we are of the faith, that our own hearts will convict us. Jesus does not want part of us, He does not want hypocrites, or folks who are white-washed on the outside but out for themselves on the inside.

2) God sets the standard of acceptance, and it is not having all our ducks in a row theologically, it is having a love for Christ and a love for the lost in our hearts. Remember the story of Peter and Jesus in John Chapter 21. Jesus asks Peter if he loves (agape=sacrificial love) Him, and Peter answers I love (philo=affectionate brotherly love). Jesus asks Peter again and gets the same answer, falling short of the high standard. But then, when Christ asks Peter for the third time, He says, "Do you love (philo) Me? Feed my sheep. We do not start out willing to put our hands out and go where we do not want to go (die upside down on a cross) but with the love of Christ in our hearts, all we can muster, Jesus will take us and begin a good work in us.

3) Your view sounds Calvinistic? Yes, but it is biblical. The TULI of the TULIP are mistaken doctrines. But on the other hand automatic salvation when we profess Christ is also a mistaken doctrine. We do not put ourselves in Christ based on us believing to whatever degree we do; it is God who credits our faith as righteousness or not, for He knows our hearts. Romans 4:4-5,24. God chooses us for salvation through faith in the truth. It is His action based on His assessment. 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

Sinners cannot freely choose to come to Christ, as we are corrupted beings, sin natures that will not submit to God, nor desire to get saved, as we would want to stay in the dark, and get saved by our own ways, good works!

you cannot reject calvinistic views on salvation without also rejecting the extent of the fall of Adam...

Make your errors in regards to how you view that, and you will fail to see just WHy god chose to save sinners as He did!

 

[Van]

Why do you insist on painting a picture of God Who is not omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent?

Calvinists systematically misrepresent the views of others to dodge actual discuss of their mistaken doctrine. God is all knowing, all powerful and present everywhere. Will S/N repent and stop misrepresenting my views? Time will tell.

Will Calvinists stop claiming everything is predestined, including our sins, yet at the same time say God who predestined our sins is not the cause and author of our sins?

 

[Van]

VAN Sorry you find the truth"mind boggling".....it must have boggled your mind because adoption is true for every believer here and now....we are adopted as sons ...now...

[ROMANS]15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

And the mistaken doctrines just keep coming. Here we have another silly effort to equate our physical adoption as sons, the resurrection of our bodies (Romans 8:23) with becoming spiritual children of God. Our indwelt Holy Spirit is our pledge to be adopted physically as sons, thus it is our Spirit of Adoption. Are we spiritual children of God, born anew? Yes. But that spiritual conversion is called being born anew, not adoption. Being spiritual children of God, we are heirs of God.

Calvinism simply has no clue as to how to understand all the passages discussing a topic. Here they ignore Romans 8:23 and provide their own unbiblical meaning to adoption.

They make this silly error in order to try to apply predestination to being born again, rather than our physical resurrection.

 

[Van]

SECTION III.--ADOPTION.

GOD ADOPTS, AS SONS, ALL WHO BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST.[98]

In adoption, as practiced among men, an individual receives the son of another into his family, and confers on him the same privileges and advantages, as if he were his own son. In this sense, God adopts all who believe in Jesus Christ: "We are all the children of God by faith in Jesus Christ."[99] "Behold what manner of love the Father hath bestowed on us, that we should be called the sons of God."[100] This blessing of grace rises higher than justification. Though a judge may fully acquit one who is arraigned before him on a charge of crime, he does not confer, on the man so acquitted, any of the privileges or advantages which belong to a son. But the believer in Jesus is permitted to regard God, not only as a justifying Judge, but as a reconciled and affectionate Father. The problem, how he can be put among the children,[101] has been solved. Though once afar off, he has been brought nigh by the blood of Christ, and made of the household of God.[102]

Among the privileges and advantages which adoption secures, we may enumerate the following:

1. The love of God, as a kind Father, is secured to believers. The Scriptures frequently exhibit the love of God to his people, under the figure of a Father's love to his children: "As a Father pitieth his children, so the Lord pitieth them that fear him."[103] "If ye, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give good things to them that ask him."[104] "Your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things."[105] Corresponding with this encouraging and delightful exhibition of God's love, is the confidence with which the believer in Christ is inspired to approach his heavenly Father: "Because ye are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of his Son into yours hearts, crying Abba, Father."[106] Hence Christ habitually spoke to his disciples of God as their Father, and, before he left them, said, in language full of endearment and encouragement: "I ascend to my Father and your Father:"[107] and hence he taught them to say, in their daily prayers: "Our Father, who art in heaven."[108]

2. The discipline of God, as a kind and wise Father, is secured to all who believe in Jesus: "Whom the Lord loveth, he chasteneth and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth."[109] "We have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence. Shall we not much rather be in subjection to the Father of Spirits and live?"[110] "For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness."[111] Inestimably rich is this blessing of divine discipline. Let the wealthy and noble of the earth rejoice in the advantages which give them distinction among men, and supply them with the means of carnal enjoyment; but let the afflicted believer in Jesus, rejoice in the lot which God has assigned him, because it has been chosen for him by a Father who knows what is best for him, and who loves him so tenderly as to withhold from him no good thing. Having all good in heaven and earth at his disposal, he has selected that portion for each of his children on earth, which will best promote their highest interest.

3. Believers in Christ are made heirs of God: "If children, then heirs of God, and joint heirs with Jesus Christ."[112] God, the creator of all things, is the proprietor of all things, and his adopted children are made heirs to this vast estate. "He that overcometh, shall inherit all things."[113] "All things are yours, and Christ is appointed heir of all things; and believers are co-heirs with him."[114]

The inheritance of God's children, is frequently represented as a kingdom: "Fear not, little flock, it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom."[115] "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom."[116] The adoption of believers does not take full effect in the present life: "We are waiting for the adoption, the redemption of the body;' "waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God."[117] Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom; and, therefore, this vile body must be changed, and fashioned like the glorious body of Christ, before we can receive the glory and joy which God has prepared for us. Yet the title to the inheritance is made sure, since we are co-heirs with Christ; and the promise and oath of God, two immutable things in which it is impossible for God to lie,[118] give to the heirs of promise, the strongest possible assurance, that they shall receive the inheritance: "Beloved, now are we the sons of God; and it doth not yet appear what we shall be; but we know, that when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is."[119] Though now in exile, and pilgrims and strangers in the earth, perhaps despised and forsaken, we are the children of God, and heirs of an inheritance which is incorruptible, undefiled, and fadeth not away. Even now, whatever may be our poverty, affliction, or reproach, we are the objects of our Father's care, and he gives us, as an earnest of the future inheritance, so much of it in present enjoyment, as he sees to be best for us. All things within the boundless dominion of Jehovah, work together for good, to them that love God.[120]

Lets go these fallacies one by one yet again:

Are we born again physically or spiritually? Spiritually! So as born anew and indwelt believers, we are, past tense, spiritual children of God. Have we been bodily resurrected, our adoption as sons? No.

Thus all the verses that refer to being children of God in the present refer to us being spiritual children of God, awaiting to be adopted.

At its core, this is the old, prove "A" we are spiritual children of God, heirs of God, and having the Spirit of [future]Adoption, and then claiming "B" has been demonstrated, adoption refers to being born spiritually anew rather than bodily resurrected as Romans 8:23 demonstrates. Shoddy and mistaken.

 

[Aaron]

Note to the reader: when the above troll wishes to discuss what is actually said it would be the first time here on the BB.

Which, being interpreted, meaneth: B-b-b-b-b-bark! Bark! Bark! Grrrrrrrr-Ruff!

 

[Yeshua1]

And the mistaken doctrines just keep coming. Here we have another silly effort to equate our physical adoption as sons, the resurrection of our bodies (Romans 8:23) with becoming spiritual children of God. Our indwelt Holy Spirit is our pledge to be adopted physically as sons, thus it is our Spirit of Adoption. Are we spiritual children of God, born anew? Yes. But that spiritual conversion is called being born anew, not adoption. Being spiritual children of God, we are heirs of God.

Calvinism simply has no clue as to how to understand all the passages discussing a topic. Here they ignore Romans 8:23 and provide their own unbiblical meaning to adoption.

They make this silly error in order to try to apply predestination to being born again, rather than our physical resurrection.

We have ALREADY passed over from spiritual death to spiritual life in christ, our adoption is made when we are justified and become part of family of God!

HS seals us, indwells us, promises us that God will complete that he started when we are glorified!

if you are not aopted right here and now, not one of his, still lost in sins!

 

[Van]

We have ALREADY passed over from spiritual death to spiritual life in christ, our adoption is made when we are justified and become part of family of God!

HS seals us, indwells us, promises us that God will complete that he started when we are glorified!

if you are not aopted right here and now, not one of his, still lost in sins!

Yet another complete work of fiction, with nary a scripture reference. Romans 8:23 says Paul uses the term translated adoption to refer to our bodily resurrection. Thus when we are born anew, we are spiritual children of God born from above. After we believe, we are chosen and put in Christ where we are born anew which gives us the right to become physical children of God. As a spiritual child of God we will, we are predestined, to be adopted as physical children of God which refers to our bodily resurrection.

All this is simply crystal, and again demonstrates Calvinism is based on shoddy bible study.

Note the number of glosses needed to pour Calvinism into the text, we are chosen through faith in the truth becomes we are chosen through no faith in the truth. We are regenerated, made alive, quickened when we are put into Christ spiritually, but Calvinism claims somehow people are made alive before they put into Christ. On and on it goes, one fallacy after another.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yet another complete work of fiction, with nary a scripture reference. Romans 8:23 says Paul uses the term translated adoption to refer to our bodily resurrection. Thus when we are born anew, we are spiritual children of God born from above. After we believe, we are chosen and put in Christ where we are born anew which gives us the right to become physical children of God. As a spiritual child of God we will, we are predestined, to be adopted as physical children of God which refers to our bodily resurrection.

All this is simply crystal, and again demonstrates Calvinism is based on shoddy bible study.

Note the number of glosses needed to pour Calvinism into the text, we are chosen through faith in the truth becomes we are chosen through no faith in the truth. We are regenerated, made alive, quickened when we are put into Christ spiritually, but Calvinism claims somehow people are made alive before they put into Christ. On and on it goes, one fallacy after another.

Unless the HS came to grant you the means to hear and respond to jesus, you would have stayed a dead spiritual corpse!

And we are right now adopted by God, as we can call Him Abba father, ONLY children of His can do that!

'many are called, but few are chosen!"

 

[Van]

Unless the HS came to grant you the means to hear and respond to jesus, you would have stayed a dead spiritual corpse!

And we are right now adopted by God, as we can call Him Abba father, ONLY children of His can do that!

'many are called, but few are chosen!"

More fiction with nary a scriptural reference. This is all Calvinism has, false assertions followed by false assertions.

To be adopted as sons of God refers to our bodily resurrection, Romans 8:23. Note how my view is supported by scripture and the Calvinist view is simply made up fiction.

Then note the misrepresentation, posted like clock-work by Calvinists, we are spiritual children of God so we can cry out Abba Father.

Why any one would adhere to Calvinism is mind boggling. Every stitch of the rag doll tries to put pieces of scripture where they do not fit.

Does God desire all men to be saved? Calvinism denies this scripture.

Did Jesus lay down His life as a ransom for all? Calvinism denies this scripture.

Is our adoption as sons our bodily resurrection? Calvinism denies this scripture.

Are we chosen for salvation through faith in the truth? Calvinism denies this scripture.

I could go on and on. Calvinism is based of shoddy bible study and unwarranted extrapolations of scripture.

 

[percho]

that which hath been born of the flesh, flesh is and that which hath been born of the Spirit, spirit is.

Bill Clinton had trouble with this word also.

You are either one or the other. You are never both at any given time.

That is what that verse says.

 

[Van]

The election before time, Ephesians 1:4 is considered by Calvinists to be an unconditional election of foreseen individuals for salvation. The Arminians also believe (at least classic Arminians) this election was of foreseen individuals, but it was conditional upon foreseen faith. A third alternative is to consider the Ephesians 1:4 election as corporate, when God chose His Redeemer He chose corporately those His Redeemer would redeem.

But when the other verses dealing with the topic of election for salvation are considered, then this Election before time is precluded from being anything except a corporate election.

No individual is chosen for salvation until they have lived without mercy, 1 Peter 2:9-10. Thus no one is conceived in an individually elected condition because then they would have never lived without mercy.

Next we are chosen through faith in the truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:13. No one has faith in the truth until they hear and receive the gospel during their lifetime. Note the verse says we are chosen through faith, therefore our faith must exist prior to being chosen, rather than foreseen.

Next, how are we chosen individually? We are set apart, the sanctification by the Spirit. When does this occur. When we are spiritually baptized into Christ's death. Therefore we could not have been chosen through the sanctification by the Spirit until after Christ died, not before creation.

Therefore, the only view consistent with all scripture is that the election of Ephesians 1:4 is corporate. QED

 

[Yeshua1]

The election before time, Ephesians 1:4 is considered by Calvinists to be an unconditional election of foreseen individuals for salvation. The Arminians also believe (at least classic Arminians) this election was of foreseen individuals, but it was conditional upon foreseen faith. A third alternative is to consider the Ephesians 1:4 election as corporate, when God chose His Redeemer He chose corporately those His Redeemer would redeem.

But when the other verses dealing with the topic of election for salvation are considered, then this Election before time is precluded from being anything except a corporate election.

No individual is chosen for salvation until they have lived without mercy, 1 Peter 2:9-10. Thus no one is conceived in an individually elected condition because then they would have never lived without mercy.

Next we are chosen through faith in the truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:13. No one has faith in the truth until they hear and receive the gospel during their lifetime. Note the verse says we are chosen through faith, therefore our faith must exist prior to being chosen, rather than foreseen.

Next, how are we chosen individually? We are set apart, the sanctification by the Spirit. When does this occur. When we are spiritually baptized into Christ's death. Therefore we could not have been chosen through the sanctification by the Spirit until after Christ died, not before creation.

Therefore, the only view consistent with all scripture is that the election of Ephesians 1:4 is corporate. QED

We are chosen by the father based upon his soveregn Will being exercised towards us, NOT due to our faith, foreknowledge etc!

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

The election before time, Ephesians 1:4 is considered by Calvinists to be an unconditional election of foreseen individuals for salvation. The Arminians also believe (at least classic Arminians) this election was of foreseen individuals, but it was conditional upon foreseen faith. A third alternative is to consider the Ephesians 1:4 election as corporate, when God chose His Redeemer He chose corporately those His Redeemer would redeem.

But when the other verses dealing with the topic of election for salvation are considered, then this Election before time is precluded from being anything except a corporate election.

No individual is chosen for salvation until they have lived without mercy, 1 Peter 2:9-10. Thus no one is conceived in an individually elected condition because then they would have never lived without mercy.

Next we are chosen through faith in the truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:13. No one has faith in the truth until they hear and receive the gospel during their lifetime. Note the verse says we are chosen through faith, therefore our faith must exist prior to being chosen, rather than foreseen.

Next, how are we chosen individually? We are set apart, the sanctification by the Spirit. When does this occur. When we are spiritually baptized into Christ's death. Therefore we could not have been chosen through the sanctification by the Spirit until after Christ died, not before creation.

Therefore, the only view consistent with all scripture is that the election of Ephesians 1:4 is corporate. QED

We are chosen by the father based upon his soveregn Will being exercised towards us, NOT due to our faith, foreknowledge etc!

Yeshua, you see what Van has posted as being opposed to your own post?

 

[Van]

Actually reading and understanding the Biblical view of our Election before time is something we can hope for, but an actual discussion seems to elude even the non-Calvinists.

On the other hand, the scriptures cited shout out the truth, whether received or not.

 

[percho]

But we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of [the] Lord, that God has chosen you from [the] beginning to salvation in sanctification of [the] Spirit and belief of [the] truth: 2 Thes 2:13 Darby translation

[the] because it ain't there.

In sanctification of Spirit and faith (belief) of truth.

And I will beg the Father, and he will give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever, the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see him nor know him; but ye know him, for he abides with you, and shall be in you. John 14:16,17 Darby again.

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes forth from with the Father, he shall bear witness concerning me; John 15:26 Darby again

But when he is come, the Spirit of truth, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but whatsoever he shall hear he shall speak; and he will announce to you what is coming. John 16:14 Darby again

But we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of [the] Lord, that God has chosen you from [the] beginning to salvation. Darby

But we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of Lord, that God has chosen you from beginning to salvation. Without [the]

This only I wish to learn of you, Have ye received the Spirit on the principle of works of law, or of [the] report of faith? Gal. 3:2 Darby

This only I wish to learn of you. Have ye received the Spirit of truth on the principle of works of law, or of report of faith? Gal. 3:2 Percho paraphrased.

Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. John 10:25,26 KJV

Why is one in unbelief and when is one in belief, ie a believer? Does one have to have been given the Spirit of truth to be moved from unbelief unto belief?

 

[Van]

Hi Percho, we are condemned already because of unbelief, John 3:18. When God credits our faith in Christ as righteousness, He transfers us from the realm of darkness [in Adam] into the kingdom of His Son (into Christ spiritually).

The Spirit of Truth is the Holy Spirit. When God puts us in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit, we are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit, also called the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of Adoption, and the Spirit of Truth. Same person, the third person of the Trinity.

A person is "of My Sheep" if they are open to the call of the gospel. Thus someone who believes in God, or is not predisposed to reject "the unknown God." People who have closed their hearts to Jesus as the Messiah, like the religious leaders of the first century, are not "of My sheep."

 

[Iconoclast]

Van,

No individual is chosen for salvation until they have lived without mercy, 1 Peter 2:9-10. Thus no one is conceived in an individually elected condition because then they would have never lived without mercy.

That is not what the verse is talking about at all.....

 

[Van]

Frequently, Calvinists use the ploy of claiming that because a passage is focused on some circumstance, like the behavior of a church or Israel, that the passage has no individual application. This ploy is simply an effort at scriptural nullification. Calvinism does not fit with scripture so scripture must be sliced and diced and the ragged pieces fit together by snipping pieces and making them to no effect.

Once we were not a people precludes being chosen before creation because we would have always been chosen, and we lived without mercy precludes being chosen for salvation, God's merciful choice, before creation.

Here is the biblical doctrine:

1) Rather than "Total Spiritual Inability" scripture teaches the Fall resulted in our being conceived in a separated from God spiritual state, a sinful state, corrupted and predisposed to sin. In this fallen state, spiritually dead meaning unable to do any works to obtain the righteousness of God, we have only limited spiritual ability. We cannot understand some spiritual things, spiritual meat, because to understand spiritual meat, we need to be indwelt with the Spirit of God.

2) Rather than Unconditional individual Election before creation, we have our Redeemer individually elected, and as a consequence those to be redeemed were elected corporately, thus He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. During our lifetime, after we have lived not as a people, without mercy, God individually elects those whose faith He credits as righteousness. Thus salvation does not depend on the man that wills, but on God who has mercy upon whom He has mercy.

3) Rather than Limited Atonement, Christ dying only for those supposed foreseen individuals elected before creation, we have Christ laying down His life as a ransom for all, because God desires all men to be saved. However, providing the means of salvation to all men does not mean all men receive the reconciliation, only those whose faith God credits as righteousness are set apart in Christ and receive the reconciliation, justified, made perfect, holy and blameless in Christ, washed by His blood, our sin burden removed by the circumcision of Christ.

4) Rather than "Irresistible Grace" which compels the supposedly previous chosen individuals to come willingly to faith, we have God's revelatory grace which may not be understood, or may be understood but not be received, accepted, welcomed, i.e. some or all of it rejected. God decides, for He knows our hearts, and accepts or rejects our faith. If He credits it as righteousness, He puts us spiritually in Christ.

Instead of calling this reformed doctrine Calvinism, we can call it the Gospel of Christ.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Frequently, Calvinists use the ploy of claiming that because a passage is focused on some circumstance, like the behavior of a church or Israel, that the passage has no individual application. This ploy is simply an effort at scriptural nullification. Calvinism does not fit with scripture so scripture must be sliced and diced and the ragged pieces fit together by snipping pieces and making them to no effect.

Once we were not a people precludes being chosen before creation because we would have always been chosen, and we lived without mercy precludes being chosen for salvation, God's merciful choice, before creation.

Here is the biblical doctrine:

1) Rather than "Total Spiritual Inability" scripture teaches the Fall resulted in our being conceived in a separated from God spiritual state, a sinful state, corrupted and predisposed to sin. In this fallen state, spiritually dead meaning unable to do any works to obtain the righteousness of God, we have only limited spiritual ability. We cannot understand some spiritual things, spiritual meat, because to understand spiritual meat, we need to be indwelt with the Spirit of God.

2) Rather than Unconditional individual Election before creation, we have our Redeemer individually elected, and as a consequence those to be redeemed were elected corporately, thus He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. During our lifetime, after we have lived not as a people, without mercy, God individually elects those whose faith He credits as righteousness. Thus salvation does not depend on the man that wills, but on God who has mercy upon whom He has mercy.

3) Rather than Limited Atonement, Christ dying only for those supposed foreseen individuals elected before creation, we have Christ laying down His life as a ransom for all, because God desires all men to be saved. However, providing the means of salvation to all men does not mean all men receive the reconciliation, only those whose faith God credits as righteousness are set apart in Christ and receive the reconciliation, justified, made perfect, holy and blameless in Christ, washed by His blood, our sin burden removed by the circumcision of Christ.

4) Rather than "Irresistible Grace" which compels the supposedly previous chosen individuals to come willingly to faith, we have God's revelatory grace which may not be understood, or may be understood but not be received, accepted, welcomed, i.e. some or all of it rejected. God decides, for He knows our hearts, and accepts or rejects our faith. If He credits it as righteousness, He puts us spiritually in Christ.

Instead of calling this reformed doctrine Calvinism, we can call it the Gospel of Christ.