Election primer

You cover the tension Scripture better than I have seen in a while.

 

I read your post several times . . . and while I appreciate you using me to support your view. there are two things I would like to point out:

1. I am not Scripture.
2. You did not state what you were trying to support. IMHO.

 

First, we cannot go without sin, so how can we be held responsible for sinning when we cannot not sin? It is possible to be held responsible for not doing what we are unable to do.

Second, read Job 1 and find out who took Job's camels. What you will find is that Satan took them (v. 12), and the Chaldeans took them (v. 17), and God took them (v. 21-22). This is where your logic goes astray. It is possible for God to choose to do something that people also choose to do, and it is right to say that both do it.

I believe this too. I also believe that no person would ever choose to believe unless God made it happens, but that is not election, it is a different subject.

I used to believe this way, but I realized that while it made sense, to a degree, there were a couple of problems. First, the Bible never explains election this way, as if election were His response to what we were going to do. When the Bible talks about God choosing us it is always in terms of His plans and not ours. Second, the Bible speaks of election as the first event in the process of salvation, and not as an event that occurs in response to something else.


If I may ask you a question (or two), why do you not want God to choose who will be saved? To put it another way, since God is more merciful than we are, it seems that more people would be saved if God chose than would be saved if we chose, so why would you view this as a negative thing?

 

MK,

I wrote an article about some of the questions you raise on my blog a while ago. You can read it here.

On the issue of sovereignty, as Sproul says in his book, Chosen By God, if even one molecule in this universe can thwart the will of God, then there is no way we can be assured that God can keep all of his promises and this detracts from his holiness. God is either completely in control, or else he is not God.

I hope this helps answer some of your questions.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Do you believe that being created in God's image means that we are sovereign? How far do you go in saying that we were created in God's image?

Joseph Botwinick

 

I don't see how God giving people choices, and holding people responsible for their choices, makes God any less sovereign. I can't make my own way to heaven, the way has been made. I can't make my own alternate final destination, it's either heaven or hell. Where I end up is totally in the hands of God. It is God that said, if I believe on His only begotten son, I will not perish, but will have eternal life.

All the "if"s in scripture seem to me to indicate conditions.

It seems to me, from scripture, God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. If our salvation was not contingent on our choice, how could it be that anyone would perish?

It seems to me, from scripture, Christ died for the sins of the whole world. The sacrifice being suffecient for every man. However, those who do not accept the free gift, do not receive it.

It seems to me, from scripture, some people had a form of godliness, but not according to knowledge.

Just a few thoughts... go ahead... fire away...

:tonofbricks:

 

Well, even many of the angels fell, remember. And again, I do think we all choose our own destiny. So, what if being creative and making decisions and thinking for ourselves is not enough? What if we all, like sheep, go astray and do what we want, to our own destruction? See, we all choose to sin, we all choose death, and nothing except God can change that. Our choices are not enough.

 

Where did I say that any choices were "less than their own free will"? Again, as I have said before, we all make free choices. We do what we want. One good question to consider is why do we want what we want? Why did Noah want to build the ark and live on it for a year? Nobody else wanted to. What was it that made him different than everyone else?

 

Hi Blammo,

If God wants everyone to be saved, and if He could make it happen, then why doesn't He? I do not know why. Do you?

 

Are all things equal in our decisions as prevenient grace teaches? Did everyone in the world grow up in a Christian Nation, with religious freedom, or with Christian Parents? Why was I born with Christian parents and the kid down the street from me was born with atheist parents? Was that our choice? Or did God not show a certain measure of grace to me that was not shown to the kid down the street or the kid in Iran? Are all things really equal?

Joseph Botwinick

 

Because He has given us a choice.

1) His way leads us to heaven
2) Our way leads us to hell

 

How does the child of atheist parents get saved? He can, you know?
Can a child in Iran get saved? I say, if he hears and believes the gospel, he will be saved.

 

What's the first thing said about Noah in the bible?

Genesis 5:28-29 - When Lamech had lived 182 years, he fathered a son and called his name Noah, saying, "Out of the ground that the LORD has cursed this one shall bring us relief from our work and from the painful toil of our hands."

How did Lamech know, since Noah had not had an opportunity to make any choices yet?

All who are chosen for salvation will trust in Him. That's how you can have assurance of your salvation - in whom do you believe?

 

All blessings are part of God's Grace since we don't deserve a one of them. You better believe God has shown much more grace to you than the kid in Iraq. Also check out what Paul says in Romans 9 about vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy.

Joseph Botwinick

 

So He wants all to be saved, but if they would rather not then He is OK with that? That doesn't sound like He wants all to be saved.