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Election primer
- Thread starter menageriekeeper
- Start date
menageriekeeper
Active Member
One of us is confused and I think it's me!
1) If God choses who will believe, then logic says the others won't have the choice to believe or not believe. God would then have made the choice of unbelief for them. How can they be responsible for a choice they couldn't have made anyway?
2) I agree perfectly with this. But I'm afraid we are using it in two different ways. I believe every person who ever walked the face of the earth or will, has a choice to make. They can choose to believe or they can stay the course of unbelief. I believe God gave us this choice to make when He created us in His own image.
Now I do believe that God knew from creation which of us would choose Him and which wouldn't, and that he elected to offer us something in return for our belief, that being salvation. That's what makes us part of the "elect", that God has provided for us an adoption.
This I can agree with to a certain extent. God does choose to save certain people. Which people? Those that "believe in the Lord Jesus". But it is man that makes the choice.
Predestination is sometimes used casually to mean election. But the verse you quoted seems to mean that God looked down through the ages saw those who would believe and predetermined what He was going to do for them, in terms of this life and the one to come. This is my understanding only.
BTW, the kids and I survived each other fairly well. But it was a good thing I was well rested! 39 kids to two adults and two young teenagers are a handful!
1) If God choses who will believe, then logic says the others won't have the choice to believe or not believe. God would then have made the choice of unbelief for them. How can they be responsible for a choice they couldn't have made anyway?
2) I agree perfectly with this. But I'm afraid we are using it in two different ways. I believe every person who ever walked the face of the earth or will, has a choice to make. They can choose to believe or they can stay the course of unbelief. I believe God gave us this choice to make when He created us in His own image.
Now I do believe that God knew from creation which of us would choose Him and which wouldn't, and that he elected to offer us something in return for our belief, that being salvation. That's what makes us part of the "elect", that God has provided for us an adoption.
This I can agree with to a certain extent. God does choose to save certain people. Which people? Those that "believe in the Lord Jesus". But it is man that makes the choice.
Predestination is sometimes used casually to mean election. But the verse you quoted seems to mean that God looked down through the ages saw those who would believe and predetermined what He was going to do for them, in terms of this life and the one to come. This is my understanding only.
BTW, the kids and I survived each other fairly well. But it was a good thing I was well rested! 39 kids to two adults and two young teenagers are a handful!
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First, we cannot go without sin, so how can we be held responsible for sinning when we cannot not sin? It is possible to be held responsible for not doing what we are unable to do.menageriekeeper said:
Second, read Job 1 and find out who took Job's camels. What you will find is that Satan took them (v. 12), and the Chaldeans took them (v. 17), and God took them (v. 21-22). This is where your logic goes astray. It is possible for God to choose to do something that people also choose to do, and it is right to say that both do it.
I believe this too. I also believe that no person would ever choose to believe unless God made it happens, but that is not election, it is a different subject.menageriekeeper said:
I used to believe this way, but I realized that while it made sense, to a degree, there were a couple of problems. First, the Bible never explains election this way, as if election were His response to what we were going to do. When the Bible talks about God choosing us it is always in terms of His plans and not ours. Second, the Bible speaks of election as the first event in the process of salvation, and not as an event that occurs in response to something else.menageriekeeper said:
If I may ask you a question (or two), why do you not want God to choose who will be saved? To put it another way, since God is more merciful than we are, it seems that more people would be saved if God chose than would be saved if we chose, so why would you view this as a negative thing?
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Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
menageriekeeper said:The doctrine(s) of election isn't something I understand very well. I like to see some calm instruction on this issue.
What is election all about? (I have an idea, but want to make sure it's correct)
What is the scriptural basis? (especially important!)
Is the drawing of the Holy Spirit essential to salvation? (how essential?)
Does the Holy Spirit draw all men equally? (Did I have the same chance to be saved as the poor black child in Africa?)
What does it mean if someone says NO to the Holy Spirit? Was that person being drawn by Him or not?
Okay, hopefully you can see what I'm getting at. NO DEBATE for a while, please, though I'd appreciate different views appropriately referenced to the Bible so I can study them and ask questions. I don't care at the moment who Calvin was or who Armenia was or what they said, only what the scripture says. Only quote from other sources if it will add clarity to the instruction and please link to the material if possible.
Fussy aren't I?
Thank you!
MK,
I wrote an article about some of the questions you raise on my blog a while ago. You can read it here.
On the issue of sovereignty, as Sproul says in his book, Chosen By God, if even one molecule in this universe can thwart the will of God, then there is no way we can be assured that God can keep all of his promises and this detracts from his holiness. God is either completely in control, or else he is not God.
I hope this helps answer some of your questions.
Joseph Botwinick
menageriekeeper
Active Member
Eventually, I want get to this subject to as it seems linked to the issue of election. But later, as I can only handle one issue at a time.
Because it seems to disregard the fact that we were created in God's own image. What part of God's image were we created in if we weren't created to, well, be creative, make decisions and think for ourselves. God already had a creation that would do His express bidding (angels). Why bother creating us at all if He were going to control our very thoughts?
Too, there is also the entire OT, where God continually gives Isreal a choice. While He choose Isreal to be His people, He didn't control their choices. He occasionally controlled their consequences, but He didn't force them to accept Him. Even knowing that they wouldn't listen to Him, He still sent messengers to call them to repentence. Why would He bother if He already knew who was going to listen and who wouldn't.
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
menageriekeeper said:Eventually, I want get to this subject to as it seems linked to the issue of election. But later, as I can only handle one issue at a time.
Because it seems to disregard the fact that we were created in God's own image. What part of God's image were we created in if we weren't created to, well, be creative, make decisions and think for ourselves. God already had a creation that would do His express bidding (angels). Why bother creating us at all if He were going to control our very thoughts?
Do you believe that being created in God's image means that we are sovereign? How far do you go in saying that we were created in God's image?
Joseph Botwinick
I don't see how God giving people choices, and holding people responsible for their choices, makes God any less sovereign. I can't make my own way to heaven, the way has been made. I can't make my own alternate final destination, it's either heaven or hell. Where I end up is totally in the hands of God. It is God that said, if I believe on His only begotten son, I will not perish, but will have eternal life.
All the "if"s in scripture seem to me to indicate conditions.
It seems to me, from scripture, God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. If our salvation was not contingent on our choice, how could it be that anyone would perish?
It seems to me, from scripture, Christ died for the sins of the whole world. The sacrifice being suffecient for every man. However, those who do not accept the free gift, do not receive it.
It seems to me, from scripture, some people had a form of godliness, but not according to knowledge.
Just a few thoughts... go ahead... fire away...
:tonofbricks:
All the "if"s in scripture seem to me to indicate conditions.
It seems to me, from scripture, God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. If our salvation was not contingent on our choice, how could it be that anyone would perish?
It seems to me, from scripture, Christ died for the sins of the whole world. The sacrifice being suffecient for every man. However, those who do not accept the free gift, do not receive it.
It seems to me, from scripture, some people had a form of godliness, but not according to knowledge.
Just a few thoughts... go ahead... fire away...
:tonofbricks:
Well, even many of the angels fell, remember. And again, I do think we all choose our own destiny. So, what if being creative and making decisions and thinking for ourselves is not enough? What if we all, like sheep, go astray and do what we want, to our own destruction? See, we all choose to sin, we all choose death, and nothing except God can change that. Our choices are not enough.menageriekeeper said:
menageriekeeper
Active Member
For Joseph Botwinick: Not sovreign, in that we don't make the rules. But, we still decide whether or not to follow the rules.
I don't know, how far does God go in saying we were created in His own image?
Back to add without double posting (ya'll are moving to fast for me! ) :
This is the very center of my question.(thank you Blammo) Go there.
How did Noah choose? Enoch? David? Saul, who couldn't seem to keep his mind made up? No where, is it implied that these chose God from less than their own free will. No where is it implied that when God told Abram to get up and go, that Abram couldn't have NO!
I don't know, how far does God go in saying we were created in His own image?
Back to add without double posting (ya'll are moving to fast for me!
) :This is the very center of my question.(thank you Blammo) Go there.
How did Noah choose? Enoch? David? Saul, who couldn't seem to keep his mind made up? No where, is it implied that these chose God from less than their own free will. No where is it implied that when God told Abram to get up and go, that Abram couldn't have NO!
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Where did I say that any choices were "less than their own free will"? Again, as I have said before, we all make free choices. We do what we want. One good question to consider is why do we want what we want? Why did Noah want to build the ark and live on it for a year? Nobody else wanted to. What was it that made him different than everyone else?menageriekeeper said:
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
Are all things equal in our decisions as prevenient grace teaches? Did everyone in the world grow up in a Christian Nation, with religious freedom, or with Christian Parents? Why was I born with Christian parents and the kid down the street from me was born with atheist parents? Was that our choice? Or did God not show a certain measure of grace to me that was not shown to the kid down the street or the kid in Iran? Are all things really equal?
Joseph Botwinick
Joseph Botwinick
menageriekeeper
Active Member
His choice did and God honored that. Scripture doesn't say that God chose Noah to choose correctly. Noah had already made the choice to follow God, so God then gave him something to do that would ultimately give glory back to God.
If God chooses us for salvation, then how can we have assurance of our salvation knowing that the scriptures say "no man knows the mind of God".
If God chooses us for salvation, then how can we have assurance of our salvation knowing that the scriptures say "no man knows the mind of God".
What's the first thing said about Noah in the bible?menageriekeeper said:
Genesis 5:28-29 - When Lamech had lived 182 years, he fathered a son and called his name Noah, saying, "Out of the ground that the LORD has cursed this one shall bring us relief from our work and from the painful toil of our hands."
How did Lamech know, since Noah had not had an opportunity to make any choices yet?
All who are chosen for salvation will trust in Him. That's how you can have assurance of your salvation - in whom do you believe?menageriekeeper said:
menageriekeeper
Active Member
Joseph, this arguement doesn't work for me because of:
Ro 1:18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness;
Ro 1:19because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them.
Ro 1:20For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, [even] his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse:
I'm also not sure that blessings=grace. I'm certainly more blessed than my counterpart in Iraq, but has God really shown me more grace than He offers them if they would only believe?
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
menageriekeeper said:
All blessings are part of God's Grace since we don't deserve a one of them. You better believe God has shown much more grace to you than the kid in Iraq. Also check out what Paul says in Romans 9 about vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy.
Joseph Botwinick