Found this on facebook....
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Election spoken of in scripture...like this-
- Thread starter Iconoclast
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Calvinism: Election is the means to Christ.
NonCal: Christ is the means to Election.
Richard Coords - "The criticism against Calvinistic Election is that it represents a severe demotion of Christ:
Arminius explains: “This doctrine is highly dishonorable to Jesus Christ our Savior. ... It denies that Christ is the meritorious cause who again obtained for us the salvation we had lost, by placing him only as a subordinate cause of that salvation which had been already foreordained, and thus only a minister and instrument to apply that salvation unto us.” (Arminius Speaks, p.47, emphasis mine)"
NonCal: Christ is the means to Election.
Richard Coords - "The criticism against Calvinistic Election is that it represents a severe demotion of Christ:
Arminius explains: “This doctrine is highly dishonorable to Jesus Christ our Savior. ... It denies that Christ is the meritorious cause who again obtained for us the salvation we had lost, by placing him only as a subordinate cause of that salvation which had been already foreordained, and thus only a minister and instrument to apply that salvation unto us.” (Arminius Speaks, p.47, emphasis mine)"
Calvinism actually promotes the glory of the God of the Bible , as we in detail show that from start to its finish, salvation is totally of the Lord!
Rockson
Active Member
I'd say it diminishes his gracious and loving character and yes is similar in a sense to how the religious Pharisees and Sadducee envisioned God, to the point that God's compassion and love to humans is like getting mad because Jesus healed on the Sabbath. To actually believe what they did left one with an image of God as being cold and uncaring. I'm sorry but to say to the sinner God has called me to share with you the gospel but to inwardly be believing that God probably doesn't care enough about his unfortunate is cold and uncaring beyond belief and secondly I think it really saddens the Lord.
If you hate God's Mercy, Grace, and Compassion that much perhaps you should find a different religion, or maybe even be an Atheist? To deny that God is a God of love is just beyond comprehension. To deny that God saves a great multitude too great to number is really sad.
Rockson
Active Member
You're pushing your interpretation. I believe Salvation is totally of the Lord as it's defined however a certain way NOT in the way that you do. As to Calvinism promoting the glory of God....what type of Calvinism are you even talking about? You know as well as I there are different versions or different people who are believing different things to one degree or another.
Rockson
Active Member
Where in the world do you come up with any of that from what I said! I hate God's mercy? I'm the one who have been suggesting to you God is a whole lot merciful than what you believe! Same with his grace and compassion! And the Bible DIDN'T SAY God is a God of love. It states he is LOVE. 1 John 4:8 Does it not seem obvious that some of you Calvinist just believe that God has love? LOVE defines who God is. And where did I ever deny that God doesn't save a great multitude which no man could number? Sorry but you're engaging in crazy talk!
Do any of us deserve to be saved? Do we all deserve hell?
God also is Holy, and must judge sin and evil, which all of us were, right?
You said:
No theology should ever have such a God dishonoring understanding. Some go overboard in their opposition to God's grace. Thanks for offering correction.
Rockson
Active Member
Judgement is a part of LOVE and not separate from it. If you're talking about sinners who didn't convert and say now their punishment of Hell God is still LOVE, not less LOVE. Love made punishment for sin so severe for the reason to discourage the greatest number of beings to shy away from spiritual death which is an absolute horror of a state to stay in forever. Yes God has to eventually judge sin and evil. He wouldn't be just nor good if he didn't nor would he still be LOVE. This is a thing the world actually needs to know. God because of LOVE is long suffering and patient. He allows generations to go on and on but when it reaches the point where he'd not be LOVING if he allowed it to go on for one more minute... judgement falls. Still an act of LOVE.
More like God having to do what must be done because he is Holy....
Rockson
Active Member
Holiness, justice, love....I'd say they're all joined hand in hand.
God still shows His love even when he chooses not to save all sinners, correct?
You openly defend Arminius now....well at least you are honest as to where you get your theology from
The “god” of Arminianism is Not Worshippable – by Dr. C. Matthew McMahon | A Puritan's Mind
It may be that you are an Arminian. I am very saddened that you have been caught up in thinking that Arminius’ “god” is the real God. However, you have been duped. Satan has used his false teacher to dupe you, along with much of the church today. You are not alone, but you are certainly not in a safe place. Arminianism is darkness, wickedness, evil, and heresy of the worst kind – and you have bought into it. Even scarier, God has allowed you to believe a lie (2 Chronicles 18:21). That should cause you to tremble. Take the Scriptures to heart; as 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 explains, “God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” If that is not a scary thought for you, dear reader, I do not know what is more frightful. Not only are you believing a lie, God has sent it to you that you may be blinded and condemned in unrighteousness!
Yet, do not lose hope. You have been confronted with the truth of the God of the Bible in this article, and God may indeed spare you an eternal condemnation if you would repent of your idol.
Arminians are of different stripes. Some people in Arminian churches may be truly converted, ignorant of their church home, and ultimately the Lord will rescue them out of their ignorance for He promises He will not allow His little ones to perish (such a rescue can come from Scriptural truth used in a simple internet article!). Such Arminians, if they may even be called that, are newly regenerated, but as they spend time in God’s word, they will see the error of those who preach and teach a different Gospel, maybe even the errors that they are currently holding. Ultimately they will have to leave their church to find a biblical church if they are truly convicted about the truth of the Word of God. They will leave and will learn the truth because they have the ears of s sheep that hear their Shepherd.
Secondly, there is the Arminian who knows “enough to be dangerous” and is wrestling with understanding the differences between the “god” of Arminianism and the God of the Bible. If you have just read through this article, and were an Arminian of the first flavor, now you are an Arminianism of the second camp. That makes life exceedingly dangerous for you. The truth has been given to you and the outcome of your choice will determine whether the Spirit has truly converted you or not. Will you follow an idol, or the true God of the Bible? If you continue in your idolatry following after Arminius’ deformed “god”, and you do not repent, God will judge you on the day of your death for your idolatry. The Scriptures say idolaters do not go to heaven. Thus, according to the Scriptures, you will be damned. You must recognize the fact now that you are serving a “god” that cannot be worshipped, no, that ought not to be worshipped. God forbids it. So, what will you do?
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Thirdly, it may be that you are a staunch Arminian. You are sure Arminius was right. Or maybe you have never even heard of “Arminianism” but your theology is the same as Arminius. Regardless of whether he came up with his theologically deformed ideas, or you came up with those same deformed ideas, they are still heresy and have been condemned by the orthodox church for hundreds of years. Yet, if you took but an hour or two to skim through Arminius’ works, you would find 1) that he probably thought through all this far more intricately than you have, and 2) that your theology is much the same as his and of his Remonstrant disciples. Repentance for you is even harder since you have been serving and worshipping an idol for so long. The longer one remains in idolatry, the harder it is for them to break free from it, especially if their theology is going to have to be relearned and remolded to conform to the Truth of the Word of God. Your whole world will be turned upside down. It is difficult to believe that everything you have believed is really a lie. Be warned though, the Pharisees did not like the kingdom that Christ brought in. They would have rather had their own fabricated “god” and “kingdom”, than Christ’s God and Kingdom. You are just like them if you reject and rebel against the Truth of the God of the Bible. Jesus came to teach the truth, and they rejected the truth because they were not His sheep. Are you His sheep?
It may even be that you are saying, “But I thought I was believing in the God of the Bible!” Alas, it is most sad that you think so because that simply gives way to demonstrating the quicksand you have fallen into. And it will be very hard and very difficult to accept that you are wrong. Such an “error” has eternal consequences to it. So it would behoove you to make some changes in your thinking, and repent of your current idolatry to serve the Living God. Will you do what the Remonstrants did and decide to reject the God of the Bible for their own “version” of God? If you worship the “god” of Arminianism, of even the “christ” of Arminianism, you must repent and acknowledge the reality that you do not worship the God and Christ of Scripture. You have been sorely deceived in your idolatry! Sure God was right when He rebuked His people for being “destroyed for a lack of knowledge.” Study the Scriptures and learn of the True Christ. Pray for grace to repent, and ask Christ, the Christ of the Bible, to change your heart and mind and to understand the truth of His Word. If you are sincere, He will teach you. If you desire, He will send His sovereign grace to you to aid you.
It may even be that you are saying, “But I thought I was believing in the God of the Bible!” Alas, it is most sad that you think so because that simply gives way to demonstrating the quicksand you have fallen into. And it will be very hard and very difficult to accept that you are wrong. Such an “error” has eternal consequences to it. So it would behoove you to make some changes in your thinking, and repent of your current idolatry to serve the Living God. Will you do what the Remonstrants did and decide to reject the God of the Bible for their own “version” of God? If you worship the “god” of Arminianism, of even the “christ” of Arminianism, you must repent and acknowledge the reality that you do not worship the God and Christ of Scripture. You have been sorely deceived in your idolatry! Sure God was right when He rebuked His people for being “destroyed for a lack of knowledge.” Study the Scriptures and learn of the True Christ. Pray for grace to repent, and ask Christ, the Christ of the Bible, to change your heart and mind and to understand the truth of His Word. If you are sincere, He will teach you. If you desire, He will send His sovereign grace to you to aid you.
Talk about delusional! 
FYI, I can stomach most of Arminianism, but Calvinism doesn't chew well much at all and leaves no choice but to vomit up the little pieces that would never digest in a million years.
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