"Election"

[KenH]

So you trust your good friend rather than the bible. Well that explains a lot.

Evidently, you have no way to answer what Bill Parker wrote. All you did is throw in a personal insult.

 

[AustinC]

The free willer puts the cart before the horse, imagining that man causes God...

"But God..."

 

[KenH]

I will add that in addition to justification from eternity, one can also hold to justification at the time of the cross or justification at the time God-given saving faith without damaging the Biblical view of soteriology.

I prefer justification from eternity as once God chose His elect before the world began, there was no chance whatsoever that He would fail to bring them to spend eternity with Him.

 

[Silverhair]

Evidently, you have no way to answer what Bill Parker wrote. All you did is throw in a personal insult.

My question for you is, why would you think that I would entertain a non-biblical idea. We are not justified in eternity past. As for an insult, your the one that put him up as some authority rather than the bible.

 

[Silverhair]

The free willer puts the cart before the horse, imagining that man causes God...

"But God..."

Rather the bible before your philosophy.

 

[Silverhair]

I will add that in addition to justification from eternity, one can also hold to justification at the time of the cross or justification at the time God-given saving faith without damaging the Biblical view of soteriology.

I prefer justification from eternity as once God chose His elect before the world began, there was no chance whatsoever that He would fail to bring them to spend eternity with Him.

There in lays your problem Ken. You have misread the bible and so your theology is wrong.

 

[Lodic]

God's elect were justified in HIs sight before the world began. The following is from a small book by Bill Parker, a good friend of mine, on When Are God's People Justified in His Sight? (When_Are_Gods_People_Justified_in_His_Sight_new.pdf (b5z.net)) :

"JUSTIFICATION IN ETERNITY

As stated, this is the view that God’s elect have always been justified IN HIS SIGHT, even before the foundation of the world. And even though they all fell in Adam into sin and death, and because of their sin, they deserve and have earned nothing but God’s wrath, God has always viewed and accepted them in Christ as their Representative, Surety, Substitute, Redeemer, and Mediator. They are the subjects of an eternal and everlasting covenant of grace made between God the Father and God the Son before the foundation of the world. God chose them by His sovereign grace, gave them to Christ and from the beginning placed all responsibility for their salvation and eternal well-being upon Christ. They are (and have always been) “the vessels of mercy, which HE had afore prepared unto glory” (Romans 9:23). They are recipients of a salvation that was given to them “in Christ Jesus before the world began” (2 Timothy 1:9). They are the “election of grace” (Romans 11:5), and grace has always reigned “through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord” (Romans 5:21).

Some object to this view because they argue that if this is true, God’s elect do not need to be saved, and it was not, therefore, necessary for Christ to come and die for their sins. They also conclude that if God’s elect were all justified in His sight from eternity that it is, therefore, not necessary for them to be born again and brought to faith in Christ. As stated above, it is true that there are some who hold a view of eternal justification that leads them to fatalism in denying God’s appointed means to bring all whom He has chosen and justified to complete salvation. But this is not Scriptural. First, eternal justification does not mean that God’s elect “have always been saved” in the sense of never having been lost in their sins. Justification before God is only one realm of salvation.1 God’s elect are not, in essence, born saved. They are born lost in their sins. And even though God has marked them out for salvation and has always viewed them in Christ, they are naturally born spiritually dead in trespasses and sins as enemies of and alienated from God. So, not only do God’s elect need to be justified before God, they also need to be redeemed by the blood of Christ, sanctified by the Holy Spirit, and glorified together with Christ. God’s people need to be saved because they are all sinners who deserve eternal damnation and who are born lost in their sins. It is true that in eternity God has been reconciled to them by the cross of Christ, but the redemption price must be paid for them by Christ, and they also must be reconciled to God by God-given faith in Christ. In fact, the Bible states that, as fallen in Adam and naturally born spiritually dead in trespasses and sins, there is no difference between the vessels of mercy and the children of wrath."

That is one of the clearest explanations of predestination that I've ever read. Thank you for including the PDF, and thank Brother Parker for me.

 

[Lodic]

Not butting in, it is a discussion board. While the Calvinist thinks they were picked out/saved before the foundation of the world that idea is only supported by their misreading of Ephesians 1:4. The only time someone is saved is when they are "in Him" and the only time you are in Him is when you believe. No one is in Him before the foundation of the world. We are saved in time not in eternity.

The non-calvinist does not think they were "picked" in the Calvinist sense. The bible tells us that when we believe the gospel message we will be saved. Ephesians 1:13 We are saved by God because we believe Ephesians 2:8 not so that we will believe.

So while I agree with the verses you have posted, you are wrong in equating believing so as to be saved with the Calvinist idea of saved so that you will believe.

Calvinist Loraine Boettner
"A man is not saved because he believes in Christ, he believes in Christ because he is saved."

The Calvinist has put the card before the horse.

I appreciate the freedom to join in. I've encountered some who were offended when I "butted in" to a discussion, so I try to make sure it's okay with the other participants.

My point with the passages from John and 1 John was to show that we are Christians before we are Calvinists, Armenians, etc. This was to answer your comment that the Calvinist has to "hope that God picked us as we have zero way of knowing that He did". Regarding whether we are saved before the foundation of the world, I believe what Brother @KenH posted from his friend Brother Bill Parker. Parker's last paragraph is especially enlightening - especially "eternal justification does not mean that God’s elect “have always been saved” in the sense of never having been lost in their sins".

This is not trusting a man's view over Scripture, but trusting one view over another. Scripture is the final authority, but we disagree over interpretation. As Joseph Bianchi wrote in "God Chose to Save", "The nexus of the issue is God's control of the universe. Will things take place in the span of time and space that God cannot control? Should we believe that God chooses not to control certain things? If we say yes to either of these statements we run the risk of believing in a 'god' who is not fully in control, and who allows creatures to take the helm."

Ephesians 1:4-5 is straightforward as to the meaning. In one sense we are saved "in time", in that one day I was lost in my sins and the next day I am saved. This is not just about foreknowledge, but according to God's will and purpose.

 

[KenH]

That is one of the clearest explanations of predestination that I've ever read. Thank you for including the PDF, and thank Brother Parker for me.

I would be happy to do so, but, if you want to, you can contact him yourself at info@rofgrace.com. I am sure he would enjoy hearing from you. The website for lots of articles and videos is www.rofgrace.com. Also, his three weekly sermons/lessons are uploaded to SermonAudio at Eager Avenue Grace Church | SermonAudio. Bill Parker is an excellent expositor of the gospel of Christ. He comes to the church I attend to preach at the yearly Bible Conference, so I had the opportunity to hear him in person in May as well as to enjoy a couple of meals with him. Also, I like bluegrass music and in his younger days he was in a bluegrass band.

 

[KenH]

My question for you is, why would you think that I would entertain a non-biblical idea. We are not justified in eternity past. As for an insult, your the one that put him up as some authority rather than the bible.

And you still can't provide any valid Biblical arguments against the gospel of salvation by God's sovereign grace through the finished work of Christ Jesus.

If you can't defend your position Biblically, then you really should drop the position, Silverhair.

 

[Lodic]

I would be happy to do so, but, if you want to, you can contact him yourself at info@rofgrace.com. I am sure he would enjoy hearing from you. The website for lots of articles and videos is www.rofgrace.com. Also, his three weekly sermons/lessons are uploaded to SermonAudio at Eager Avenue Grace Church | SermonAudio. Bill Parker is an excellent expositor of the gospel of Christ. He comes to the church I attend to preach at the yearly Bible Conference, so I had the opportunity to hear him in person in May as well as to enjoy a couple of meals with him. Also, I like bluegrass music and in his younger days he was in a bluegrass band.

Great theology and bluegrass to boot. It just doesn't get any better. I've bookmarked that website as well. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Silverhair]

And you still can't provide any valid Biblical arguments against the gospel of salvation by God's sovereign grace through the finished work of Christ Jesus.

If you can't defend your position Biblically, then you really should drop the position, Silverhair.

Why would I provide an argument against what you just posted as that is biblical. My arguments is against Calvinism and the way that it distorts the bible.

 

[KenH]

Why would I provide an argument against what you just posted as that is biblical. My arguments is against Calvinism and the way that it distorts the bible.

But you don't post any Biblical arguments against the stuff you rail against. I guess you just want to spew slurs and that's all you've got to offer. I am really starting to wonder if you are Biblically illiterate. If so, that is a fixable issue as you can read the Bible from cover to cover as a good start.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

God's elect were justified in HIs sight before the world began.

Unfortunately, this is where you and I part company.. The elect were elect in His sight before the world began, but not justified.. Isaiah 12:1. 'And in that day, you will say, "O LORD, I will praise You; though you were angry with me, Your anger is turned away, and You comfort me."'
'That day' is obviously the day of our Lord Jesus Christ (11:1, 10). We remain under God's judicial wrath until such time as He saves us through the preaching of the word (1 Corinthians 1:21) and the New Birth (Titus 3:4-7).

 

[KenH]

Unfortunately, this is where you and I part company.. The elect were elect in His sight before the world began, but not justified.. Isaiah 12:1. 'And in that day, you will say, "O LORD, I will praise You; though you were angry with me, Your anger is turned away, and You comfort me."'
'That day' is obviously the day of our Lord Jesus Christ (11:1, 10). We remain under God's judicial wrath until such time as He saves us through the preaching of the word (1 Corinthians 1:21) and the New Birth (Titus 3:4-7).

As I wrote in post #83 there are three positions on the timing of justification and I don't have an issue with any of three, just a preference.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

As I wrote in post #83 there are three positions on the timing of justification and I don't have an issue with any of three, just a preference.

Thtt is fair comment. However, if I may give my reasons for my preference, it is that Justification from Eternity seems to do away with preaching. Why would we bid people to repent and believe if they are already justified? 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.' Not, 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ because you have already been saved.'

 

[Silverhair]

But you don't post any Biblical arguments against the stuff you rail against. I guess you just want to spew slurs and that's all you've got to offer. I am really starting to wonder if you are Biblically illiterate. If so, that is a fixable issue as you can read the Bible from cover to cover as a good start.

That just shows me that you really do read what I post. I have made a number of arguments against your theology. You just do not like what the bible says so you ignore the scriptures that I post.

You deny what the bible says and then claim that no one understands your Calvinism or whatever you want to call your view. What it is is not biblical.

 

[KenH]

Thtt is fair comment. However, if I may give my reasons for my preference, it is that Justification from Eternity seems to do away with preaching. Why would we bid people to repent and believe if they are already justified? 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.' Not, 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ because you have already been saved.'

Election happened way back in eternity, calling happens in time. God is not bound by time. We humans are bound by time. Even God's elect are still born spiritually dead, just like the reprobates, and have to be spiritually born again. In their earthly, time-bound existence, the elect are not born "saved" but they will be saved before they leave this earth and go into eternity.

Bill Parker does a good job of explaining eternal justification in his small book that I linked to earlier in this thread.