Election

[bjonson]

webdog said:

"You can try to intellectualize the meaning to fit your doctrine...but the fact remains it means simply to "know beforehand"."

This is simply not true. As the gentlemen clearly showed from examples from scripture, foreknowledge does not simply mean "to know beforehand." After all, doesn't an omnicient God know EVERYTHING beforehand? There is more to it than that. When He said He "knew" Jeremiah from His mother's womb, did He not indicate that He had a specific plan for Him to be a prophet? Did He not "know" all the other babies in their mother's womb?

You can't simplify this to hold to tradition, webdog. The depths of God's Word deserve to be plumbed.

 

[Timtoolman]

So again we go back to a God who created man to fall into sin. This is God's will! And then makes a way for a few to go to heaven while sending the rest, majority to hell. Now man cannot save himself or do anything. God made him for hell and to hell he will go. He did not committ the sin. Sin entered into the world by one man and so all have sinned. Yet when one man paid the price for sin all are not allowed to partake of it?!!!!
If words mean anything then what calvinist are saying is that God has picked some for heaven and the rest for hell. Now even being saved men will asked how do you say praise God to those going to hell. I hear calvinist say how amazing it is and how glorious God is that they were chosen. Yet does that show love for their brother or neighbor or enemy? Did not at least two, Abraham and Peter I think, asked to be accursed so that others would be saved? That was not during a fallen state and would make those two lacking in the understanding of calvinism. HOw dare they ask God to save those that He has not chosen. Would this not be a contradicting to God to say this to Him?
Let me ask you, how do you feel that one of your loves ones is not "chosen"? Do you honestly in your heart say praise the Lord? I am asking houw you deal with it. Tell me has God made it so that you accept and rejoyce in the fact that some of you love ones will not even have the oppertunity to be saved?!!!! These are the questions I would like answered by any calvinist!
I am not even going to go into any of the passages you have given only because they have been refuted many times on this board. I am really asking a honest question that does not really take any scripture but an honest answer.
I do appreciate you sharing these scriptures with me and taking the time. HOwever I do not feel you have answered my question. Why do you glory in a soveriegn god who picks some to eteranl life and sending the rest to hell?

 

[Hardsheller]

Timtoolman,

I am not the person to whom you address the question of how we Calvinists can glory in a sovereign God who picks some to eternal life and allows the rest to go to hell but I will give you my heartfelt answer.

I have three beautiful grandchildren, ages 3-12. They are the delight of my life. I would willingly give my life for either of them or all of them. It is my sincere hope and prayer that each one of them will be Saved, and I labor to that effect, since I do not know and cannot know if they are "elect" or not.

It would literally break my heart to know that ultimately they would reject my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ and go to hell and yet there is a good chance that out of the three that possibility exists and nothing I can do or say may change that possibility.

Now what do I do as a Christian grandparent?

Do I continue to pray for their salvation? Of course.

Do I continue to witness to them and tell them of the Savior's love? Of course.

Do I continue to anguish over their eternal destiny? Of course.

I personally cannot see how being a Calvinist enters into this question at all. Would not an Arminian Grandparent feel the same way I do? Would either a Calvinist or an Arminian if they could reject his or her savior to go to hell with lost children or grandchildren?

 

[bjonson]

Timtoolman,

Again, I refer you to Paul, who anticipated your objection of inequity:

"What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—" (Romans 9:14-23, ESV)

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by Hardsheller:
Timtoolman,

I am not the person to whom you address the question of how we Calvinists can glory in a sovereign God who picks some to eternal life and allows the rest to go to hell but I will give you my heartfelt answer.

I have three beautiful grandchildren, ages 3-12. They are the delight of my life. I would willingly give my life for either of them or all of them. It is my sincere hope and prayer that each one of them will be Saved, and I labor to that effect, since I do not know and cannot know if they are "elect" or not.

It would literally break my heart to know that ultimately they would reject my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ and go to hell and yet there is a good chance that out of the three that possibility exists and nothing I can do or say may change that possibility.

Now what do I do as a Christian grandparent?

Do I continue to pray for their salvation? Of course.

Do I continue to witness to them and tell them of the Savior's love? Of course.

Do I continue to anguish over their eternal destiny? Of course.

I personally cannot see how being a Calvinist enters into this question at all. Would not an Arminian Grandparent feel the same way I do? Would either a Calvinist or an Arminian if they could reject his or her savior to go to hell with lost children or grandchildren?

Thank you hardseller for an honest answer. I don't know what arminians believe but as for me who is not a follower of J. Calvin (And I now only use that term "follower" for those who lump everyone not a calvinist into arminians) I would still feel for my children who might end up going to hell but at least I could understand that God gave His love and mercy (Jesus Chirst) to them. That they had a chance and it was them who rejected the Christ not Christ rejecting them. Again I was wanting honest answers and I apprecaite yours. I just wonder how followers of calvin feel in their hearts that thier loved ones NEVER had a chance for a relationship with the Father.

 

[Hardsheller]

Timtoolman,

You make a mistake when you say that Calvinists are followers of Calvin. We are followers of Jesus Christ not Calvin.

Is a person who has a "chance" to become a Christian and refuses any worse off than one who has no "chance" to become a Christian and still does not desire to be one?

ONE FACT THAT CANNOT BE OVERLOOKED - Everyone who is in Hell today or whoever goes to Hell in the future is there because they chose to be there.

1. They refused to bow to the Lordship of Jesus Christ.
2. They followed their own way instead of God's way.
3. No one is in hell against their own will.
4. No one in hell can claim that God was unjust.

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by Hardsheller:
[QB] Timtoolman,

You make a mistake when you say that Calvinists are followers of Calvin. We are followers of Jesus Christ not Calvin.

Is a person who has a "chance" to become a Christian and refuses any worse off than one who has no "chance" to become a Christian and still does not desire to be one?

ONE FACT THAT CANNOT BE OVERLOOKED - Everyone who is in Hell today or whoever goes to Hell in the future is there because they chose to be there.

1. They refused to bow to the Lordship of Jesus Christ.
2. They followed their own way instead of God's way.
3. No one is in hell

You make a much bigger mistake labeling all non calvinist as arminians. That was my pt. False labels produce false arguements.

As too you 3 pts you forget, God made an adam who He knew would sin. And also knew that death passed upon all men because of one man. HOwever God sent HIs son to be the one man by whom all could be saved. Tjhat is the good news Hardseller. However in the calvinist world God made it impossiable for the majority of people to be saved. He left them trapped and enslaved with no will. He made them for hell. Praise your god all you want over those ideals you are a better man then me.

 

[atestring]

wouldn't it be sad if someone wants to be saved and is refused"
TEACHING THIS IS HERESY

 

[Timtoolman]

atestring, have you ever seen anyone under conviction of the HS and yet walk out of the service and not do anything. I agree with you atestring.

 

[Hardsheller]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:

Originally posted by Hardsheller:
[QB] Timtoolman,

You make a mistake when you say that Calvinists are followers of Calvin. We are followers of Jesus Christ not Calvin.

Is a person who has a "chance" to become a Christian and refuses any worse off than one who has no "chance" to become a Christian and still does not desire to be one?

ONE FACT THAT CANNOT BE OVERLOOKED - Everyone who is in Hell today or whoever goes to Hell in the future is there because they chose to be there.

1. They refused to bow to the Lordship of Jesus Christ.
2. They followed their own way instead of God's way.
3. No one is in hell

You make a much bigger mistake labeling all non calvinist as arminians. That was my pt. False labels produce false arguements.

As too you 3 pts you forget, God made an adam who He knew would sin. And also knew that death passed upon all men because of one man. HOwever God sent HIs son to be the one man by whom all could be saved. Tjhat is the good news Hardseller. However in the calvinist world God made it impossiable for the majority of people to be saved. He left them trapped and enslaved with no will. He made them for hell. Praise your god all you want over those ideals you are a better man then me.

Timtoolman,

You are allowing rhetoric to cloud the truth.

There is only ONE TRUTH and that truth is summed up in the life, teaching, substitionary atonement and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

In the first place I don't believe I ever said that all non-Calvinists were Arminians. I believe that both Arminians and Calvinists can both be saved although they can both be wrong about certain points of theology.

What a Calvinist or an Arminian says about Salvation does not change the ONE TRUTH. They may be just looking at that TRUTH from opposite sides of the argument or the theory.

The fact is that you and I heard the Good News of Jesus Christ and it was real to us, convicted us and we were saved - Right?

The fact is that Not all men and women are going to be saved are they?

And that's tragic because they're going to spend an eternity in hell. Now whose fault is that?
It's their fault not God's.

A Righteous and Holy God cannot be blamed for anyone going to Hell. To do so would be a clear denial of Biblical Truth.

 

[atestring]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
atestring, have you ever seen anyone under conviction of the HS and yet walk out of the service and not do anything. I agree with you atestring.

sad but true

 

[Hardsheller]

Originally posted by atestring:
wouldn't it be sad if someone wants to be saved and is refused"
TEACHING THIS IS HERESY

What are you talking about?

Do you really believe Calvinists teach this?

Here's what the Bible says and this is what we preach.

Rom 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
Rom 10:11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

Luk 11:10 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

 

[bjonson]

Some excellent articles and sermons on election:

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/election.html

 

[Linda64]

Originally posted by Robert J Hutton:
1st Tim 2 v 4 clearly states that God wants all people to be saved; that one verse contradicts Calvinism. Calvinists answer by saying that God's desire is not the same as His decree; that is simply playing with words.

I used to hold to unconditional election but could never reconcile 1st Tim 2 v 4 with that view and have acknowledged this by abandoning Calvinism. If anyone wants to see how ridiculous it is to try and reconcile verses such as 1st Tim 2 v 4 with unconditional election then I suggest reading Dave Hunt's demolition job in the book Debating Calvinism.

Kind regards to all.

Bob

Amen Bob!!! Dave Hunt also wrote a little book (about 104 pages) "A Calvinist's Honest Doubts Resolved". It is an exerpt from the larger book "What Love Is This?". Although I never was a Calvinist, and really didn't know a thing about Calvinism until I got online and into some Christian chats, I was always curious about it. It really didn't sound too logical--as a matter of fact, it sounded like God created us as "puppets". I also read "Debating Calvinism". I honestly could not understand James White's reasoning--he used too many "philosophical" words that sounded more like mumbo jumbo to me. Dave Hunt won that debate hands down.

Praise the Lord that He gave you the Light!!

 

[4His_glory]

Originally posted by Linda64:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Robert J Hutton:
1st Tim 2 v 4 clearly states that God wants all people to be saved; that one verse contradicts Calvinism. Calvinists answer by saying that God's desire is not the same as His decree; that is simply playing with words.

I used to hold to unconditional election but could never reconcile 1st Tim 2 v 4 with that view and have acknowledged this by abandoning Calvinism. If anyone wants to see how ridiculous it is to try and reconcile verses such as 1st Tim 2 v 4 with unconditional election then I suggest reading Dave Hunt's demolition job in the book Debating Calvinism.

Kind regards to all.

Bob

Amen Bob!!! Dave Hunt also wrote a little book (about 104 pages) "A Calvinist's Honest Doubts Resolved". It is an exerpt from the larger book "What Love Is This?". Although I never was a Calvinist, and really didn't know a thing about Calvinism until I got online and into some Christian chats, I was always curious about it. It really didn't sound too logical--as a matter of fact, it sounded like God created us as "puppets". I also read "Debating Calvinism". I honestly could not understand James White's reasoning--he used too many "philosophical" words that sounded more like mumbo jumbo to me. Dave Hunt won that debate hands down.

Praise the Lord that He gave you the Light!! </font>[/QUOTE]Funny how my reply to brother Hutton's post was totally ignored.

Linda I would encourage you to hear about Calvinism from a Calvinist instead of Dave Hunt who's dishonetsy in "What Love is this?" has been exposed.

A common charge made by non Calvinists is that they make men into "puppets". Nothing could be further from the truth.

Read this.

http://www.oldtruth.com/calvinism/calvinism.html

 

[4His_glory]

Praise the Lord that He gave you the Light!!

Now thats a Calvinistic statement!

 

[bjonson]

"“For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. It was not because you were more in number than any other people that the Lord set his love on you and chose you, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but it is because the Lord loves you and is keeping the oath that he swore to your fathers, that the Lord has brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt." (Deuteronomy 7:6-8, ESV)

In this well-known passage, what is the basis of God's election of Israel? It is most certainly not "foreseen faith and obedience"! It is God's electing love and His free choice to do what He pleases as a Sovereign Lord.

 

[bjonson]

And, by the way, God elects individuals too...

Look at Jesus' words in Matthew 24:22, 31.

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by 4His_glory:
[/qb]

Funny how my reply to brother Hutton's post was totally ignored.

Linda I would encourage you to hear about Calvinism from a Calvinist instead of Dave Hunt who's dishonetsy in "What Love is this?" has been exposed.

A common charge made by non Calvinists is that they make men into "puppets". Nothing could be further from the truth.

Read this.

http://www.oldtruth.com/calvinism/calvinism.html [/QB][/QUOTE]

4His-Glory, I really enjoy Norm Giesler's books. And his debate with James White is great too. Also "the other side of Calvinism" is super too but it deals more with the philosophical then anything. I haven't read "Why I am not a Calvinist" Yet which I just got recently. Have you read any of those books? Or do you just read James White?

 

[4His_glory]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:

4His-Glory, I really enjoy Norm Giesler's books. And his debate with James White is great too. Also "the other side of Calvinism" is super too but it deals more with the philosophical then anything. I haven't read "Why I am not a Calvinist" Yet which I just got recently. Have you read any of those books? Or do you just read James White?

I have never read a book by James White, just articles on his web site. I have read Giesler and I do like a lot of what he writes though I would disagree with him regarding Calvinism. I have read "Chosen but Free", and it was disturbing that he claims to be a "moderate Calvinist" which when he describes it seems to be more of an Arminian position as he ascribes to pervenient grace.

I do like a lot of Gieslers apologetic material though.