Elevation of women in the church and in society

[Dale-c]

I agree 100%. Since a heretic is by definition of the Greek word a schismatic, one who needlessly causes divisions, I agree that we should not debate with them. There are some here who seem to relish in causing divisions and fights.

I am not sure who you are talking about...an I hope I am not on your list.
But do please be so bold as to come out and say what you mean.

That statement could be claimed by a lot of people, against a lot of people the way you said it.

 

[Filmproducer]

I am not sure who you are talking about...an I hope I am not on your list.
But do please be so bold as to come out and say what you mean.

That statement could be claimed by a lot of people, against a lot of people the way you said it.

I think it is quite obvious what he meant, but then again what do I know I'm just a woman, and an educated one at that.

And on that note this thread has officially surpassed the 30 page limit so by all means mods please dispose of it properly. I don't think my brothers here have any more feet to stick in their proverbial mouths.

 

[Dale-c]

I think it is quite obvious what he meant, but then again what do I know I'm just a woman, and an educated one at that.

A few things that I and others on this board have NOT claimed:

That women are somehow inferior because they simply are not.
That women are somehow lower class, because they most certainly are not.
That women are stupid, because they are not.
That women should not be educated, because they should be.
That we "hate" women because we don't and most of us are married.

What we ARE saying:

That women are given by God special roles that are separate from what God has given to men.
Women are not to be leaders and rulers of men.
Men are to lead and protect women.
Men are to love and cherish women (their wives of course in particular)
Though women to not have authority over men, they are to be honored above men.
Women are special
Women are given special duties and talents and are very important.



I hope none of you find anything offensive about that.

 

[Dale-c]

I think it is quite obvious what he meant,

Then why not be straightforward and come out and say it?

 

[Bro. Williams]

amen. wondering that myself...

 

[Karen]

A few things that I and others on this board have NOT claimed:

That women are somehow inferior because they simply are not.
That women are somehow lower class, because they most certainly are not.
That women are stupid, because they are not.
That women should not be educated, because they should be.
That we "hate" women because we don't and most of us are married.

What we ARE saying:

That women are given by God special roles that are separate from what God has given to men.
Women are not to be leaders and rulers of men.
Men are to lead and protect women.
Men are to love and cherish women (their wives of course in particular)
Though women to not have authority over men, they are to be honored above men.
Women are special
Women are given special duties and talents and are very important.



I hope none of you find anything offensive about that.

I don't find it offensive, but probably where I differ from you is that you would apply it to all of society. For example, I don't know that there is a general principle that women are never to lead men outside the church.
Or that women can never in ANY sphere of society have "authority" over men.
I also am not sure that every woman is primarily given talents to be in the home.

Does your wife vote? Does she only vote the way you tell her to?
Would you quit rather than have a female boss?
If your daughter never marries, will you expect her to live at home with you and your wife as an adult, with you setting the rules?

Regardless of what you think are the implications of your statements above, everyone reads it in the context of how they see people living it out.

 

[Filmproducer]

A few things that I and others on this board have NOT claimed:

That women are somehow inferior because they simply are not.
That women are somehow lower class, because they most certainly are not.
That women are stupid, because they are not.
That women should not be educated, because they should be.
That we "hate" women because we don't and most of us are married.

What we ARE saying:

That women are given by God special roles that are separate from what God has given to men.
Women are not to be leaders and rulers of men.
Men are to lead and protect women.
Men are to love and cherish women (their wives of course in particular)
Though women to not have authority over men, they are to be honored above men.
Women are special
Women are given special duties and talents and are very important.



I hope none of you find anything offensive about that.

First of all I have not claimed anything concerning you or anyone else. Secondly, yes I do find your list offensive, but I think Karen is probably much nicer about it so I'll leave it at that. Suffice it to say, I am a Christian wife, a Christian mother, and an educated Christian woman with authority over many men in my various career pursuits.

 

[christianyouth]

"Is it not certain that he who does not or will not believe one article correctly (after he has been taught and admonished) does not believe any sincerely and with the right faith? And whoever is so bold that he ventures to accuse God of fraud and deception in a single word and does so willfully again and again after he has been warned and instructed once or twice will likewise certainly venture to accuse God of fraud and deception in all of His words. Therefore it is true, absolutely and without exception, that everything is believed or nothing is believed. The Holy Spirit does not suffer Himself to be separated and divided so that He should teach and cause to be believed one doctrine rightly and another falsely." - Martin Luther

This quote really sums up much of what is going on in this thread. The foundational issue is a denial of biblical authority, not a difference in interpretation. The sad thing is that the majority of Christians have been instructed on this issue, but are willfully ignoring the teachings of Scripture. To quote what Luther says, 'Either everything is believed or nothing is believed.' If we deny the Biblical authority on this issue, we inevitably will find ourselves rejecting other Scriptures that do not fit in with our ungodly worldview. Rufus has posted the verses. Many of us have declared God's truth unambigiously and in unmitigated fashion, and yet people on this board continue to reject the notion that the man is the ruler of the home, just as Christ is the ruler of the church.

 

[Rufus_1611]

A few things that I and others on this board have NOT claimed:

That women are somehow inferior because they simply are not.
That women are somehow lower class, because they most certainly are not.
That women are stupid, because they are not.
That women should not be educated, because they should be.
That we "hate" women because we don't and most of us are married.

What we ARE saying:

That women are given by God special roles that are separate from what God has given to men.
Women are not to be leaders and rulers of men.
Men are to lead and protect women.
Men are to love and cherish women (their wives of course in particular)
Though women to not have authority over men, they are to be honored above men.
Women are special
Women are given special duties and talents and are very important.



I hope none of you find anything offensive about that.

Excellent summation!

 

[Rufus_1611]

"Is it not certain that he who does not or will not believe one article correctly (after he has been taught and admonished) does not believe any sincerely and with the right faith? And whoever is so bold that he ventures to accuse God of fraud and deception in a single word and does so willfully again and again after he has been warned and instructed once or twice will likewise certainly venture to accuse God of fraud and deception in all of His words. Therefore it is true, absolutely and without exception, that everything is believed or nothing is believed. The Holy Spirit does not suffer Himself to be separated and divided so that He should teach and cause to be believed one doctrine rightly and another falsely." - Martin Luther

This quote really sums up much of what is going on in this thread. The foundational issue is a denial of biblical authority, not a difference in interpretation. The sad thing is that the majority of Christians have been instructed on this issue, but are willfully ignoring the teachings of Scripture. To quote what Luther says, 'Either everything is believed or nothing is believed.' If we deny the Biblical authority on this issue, we inevitably will find ourselves rejecting other Scriptures that do not fit in with our ungodly worldview. Rufus has posted the verses. Many of us have declared God's truth unambigiously and in unmitigated fashion, and yet people on this board continue to reject the notion that the man is the ruler of the home, just as Christ is the ruler of the church.

Well stated...amen.

 

[Bro. Williams]

A hardy amen to the two above quoted posts as well.

 

[ccrobinson]

Many of us have declared God's truth unambigiously and in unmitigated fashion,

You have? Really?

You posted this earlier in the thread.

The husband is to be a protector, provider, and leader of the home. Yes, this means subjugating the wife.

Amy posted a helpful definition for us.

sub·ju·gate - 1. to bring under complete control or subjection; conquer; master.
2. to make submissive or subservient; enslave.

And, one of the guys that you agree with, Rufus, has stated that he doesn't like the word subjugate either.

I don't like that "subjugated" word...

Subjugation has absolutely nothing to do with Biblical submission.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Many of us have declared God's truth unambigiously and in unmitigated fashion, and yet people on this board continue to reject the notion that the man is the ruler of the home, just as Christ is the ruler of the church.

I missed that. I thought the Bible said that the man is the head of the home as Christ is the head of the church. Could you reference where the Bible says that man is the ruler of the home as Christ is the ruler of the church please?

 

[christianyouth]

I missed that. I thought the Bible said that the man is the head of the home as Christ is the head of the church. Could you reference where the Bible says that man is the ruler of the home as Christ is the ruler of the church please?

1 Peter 3:1Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives, 2 when they observe your chaste conduct accompanied by fear.

Further...

1 Peter 3:6 as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, whose daughters you are if you do good.

What does the word 'lord' mean, C4K?

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Admit it CY, you misquoted a verse. You said husbands rule their homes like Christ rules the church. It's not there is it?

 

[drwthohh]

In my reading of the scriptures I have come to a few conclusions regarding this matter:

1. God invented authority and it was good.

2. Mankind has found a way to screw up authority just like we have screwed up everything else good that God has given us. That's why most people (including myself) don't like authority.

3. If we want to have healthy relationships with God and each other, we had better learn how to walk under authority and walk in authority in a way that pleases God. The Bible has plenty of good instructions for us here:

Since I am a common citizen I am supposed to submit myself to the governing body of this nation (1 Peter 2:13-14 & Romans 13:1-2).

As a church layman I should submit to the spiritual authority of the leaders in my church (Hebrews 13:17), and I should submit to my fellow believers as God leads (Ephesians 5:21, 1 Corinthians 16:15-16).

As the husband and father in my home I must exercise Godly authority. This means that I should love my wife like Christ loves the church and to love her as I love my own body (Ephesians 5:25 & 28). Also I should train my children in the Lord but not provoke them to wrath (Ephesians 6:4).


I think one of the reasons we get touchy about issues of authority is that we have a negative view of how authority works, and that's because people have a bad habit of abusing their positions of authority (including husbands). If I focus on being a Godly husband and loving my wife like I should, I think it's easier for my wife to follow the submission part.

 

[Filmproducer]

Yes, and for the life of me what is the correlation between submitting yourself to your husband and not holding positions of authority in the secular business world? I submit to my husband, although we are one and we live with mutual respect for each other, i.e., there is no "lording/ruling" over me . I am also the keeper of my home, and primary care giver to our children. Where exactly does the bible preclude me from holding a position of authority in my work? Nay, how am I not submitting myself to biblical authority? (I would especially love to hear your answer CY- as you are the resident "feminized" youth of the BB having a single mother and all that)

 

[Magnetic Poles]

To submit means to offer. a business submits a proposal, that is, offers it. Spouses submit themselves to each other, or offer ourselves in a loving relationships...nothing at all about lording over or subjugating.

 

[drwthohh]

Yes, and for the life of me what is the correlation between submitting yourself to your husband and not holding positions of authority in the secular business world?

I don't think the Bible clearly forbids women holding positions of authority in the secular buisiness world.

 

[drwthohh]

To submit means to offer. a business submits a proposal, that is, offers it. Spouses submit themselves to each other, or offer ourselves in a loving relationships...nothing at all about lording over or subjugating.

sub·mit ( ) v. , -mit·ted , -mit·ting , -mits . v.tr. To yield or surrender (oneself) to the will or authority of another.