Ellen G. White False Prophecies

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
You are making wild claims with a bogus list -- borrowed from a playbook website without actually looking into the details to see if they hold water.

And so you are stuck with the fact that

1. The first 3 are made up - not a single quote from Ellen White claiming that any vision from God selected some date in the future for the 2nd coming.

Nothing but "making stuff up" out of hearsay at most.

Your source "makes stuff up" when it is suspected that the crowd might not take the time to "notice" the game they are playing. -- and I think their game actually does work on occasion here on this board.

But not everyone is going to be that uncaring about the actual details.

2. And the remaining items (those that actually do have a documented claim by Ellen White regarding her visions or dreams) on that list are just a case of circling the wagons around your wild hope that at least some people who oppose Ellen White - will also oppose Jeremiah 18.

Nothing new there.

So you would say that Ellen White was ALWAYS 100% accurate in every prediction that she made then?

My response above was in regard to a list of bogus charges clipped from a playbook website by those who apparently did not check out the actual details.

My claim about Ellen White is that the claims she made - about God giving her a message - a prediction - about the future or a doctrinal statement - is correct and perfectly in line with Jeremiah 18 as well as other sections of scripture.

(I have said this on this board before - so nothing new here from me.)

in Christ,

Bob

 

[targus]

My response above was in regard to a list of bogus charges clipped from a playbook website by those who apparently did not check out the actual details.

My claim about Ellen White is that the claims she made - about God giving her a message - a prediction - about the future or a doctrinal statement - is correct and perfectly in line with Jeremiah 18 as well as other sections of scripture.

(I have said this on this board before - so nothing new here from me.)

You have never explained how you know that the prophesies that did not prove to be true were "conditional" and not simply "false".

Scripture provides an example of a "conditional" prophesy BUT that does NOT PROVE that her prophesies were "conditional".

The distinction between a "conditional" prophesy and a "failed" prophesy is critical!!

How do you come to your conclusion?

 

[BobRyan]

You have never explained how you know that the prophesies that did not prove to be true were "conditional" and not simply "false".

Scripture provides an example of a "conditional" prophesy BUT that does NOT PROVE that her prophesies were "conditional".

The distinction between a "conditional" prophesy and a "failed" prophesy is critical!!

How do you come to your conclusion?

You carefully avoided Jeremiah 18 in your response. That is pretty interesting and "instructive".

Here is the full quote

Originally Posted by BobRyan
You are making wild claims with a bogus list -- borrowed from a playbook website without actually looking into the details to see if they hold water.

And so you are stuck with the fact that

1. The first 3 are made up - not a single quote from Ellen White claiming that any vision from God selected some date in the future for the 2nd coming.

Nothing but "making stuff up" out of hearsay at most.

Your source "makes stuff up" when it is suspected that the crowd might not take the time to "notice" the game they are playing. -- and I think their game actually does work on occasion here on this board.

But not everyone is going to be that uncaring about the actual details.

2. And the remaining items (those that actually do have a documented claim by Ellen White regarding her visions or dreams) on that list are just a case of circling the wagons around your wild hope that at least some people who oppose Ellen White - will also oppose Jeremiah 18.

Nothing new there.

And prior to that I said that those who fail to grasp Jeremiah 18 then go on to invent false rules for prophecy that would make even Jonah a false prophet.

In the question above you are in effect asking - how to know when to apply the general rule of Jeremiah 18 - and yet in the text of Jeremiah 18 (that you are so carefully avoiding) it tells you the answer.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[targus]

Your repeated cut and paste non-answer tells us nothing.

Walk through it step by step.

Take a specific EGW prophesy that did not come true and explain how you know that specific prophesy to be "conditional" and not "failed".

 

[BobRyan]

Your repeated cut and paste non-answer tells us nothing.

Walk through it step by step.

Take a specific EGW prophesy that did not come true and explain how you know that specific prophesy to be "conditional" and not "failed".

You cannot resolve your problem with Jeremiah 18 without at least being willing to quote it.

An easy illustration of this is in one of the rare cases that your half-truth no-truth website actually gives a complete quote from something Ellen White predicted and claimed it to be of God.

"I was shown the company present at the Conference. Said the angel: 'Some food for worms, some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus.'" Testimonies, Vol. 1, p. 131

Both Ellen White and Moses talked about a future event that they fully expected to happen much earlier than it actually did.


And the reason for delay in both cases - is the same. It is found in Jeremiah 18.

This just is not that hard if you are willing to actually read Jeremiah 18.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DrJamesAch]

You carefully avoided Jeremiah 18 in your response. That is pretty interesting and "instructive".

Here is the full quote




And prior to that I said that those who fail to grasp Jeremiah 18 then go on to invent false rules for prophecy that would make even Jonah a false prophet.

In the question above you are in effect asking - how to know when to apply the general rule of Jeremiah 18 - and yet in the text of Jeremiah 18 (that you are so carefully avoiding) it tells you the answer.

in Christ,

Bob

You can not claim a "conditional prophecy" without SPELLING OUT THE CONDITIONS. Any time any prophecy was made that was CONDITIONAL (which isn't really a "prophecy" at all, it's more of a covenant statement than a prediction) the CONDITIONS WERE LAID OUT.

Jeremiah 18 does not provide any protection for White's false prophecies.

" If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them." v8

God spelled out the conditions. Ellen G. White DID NOT.

This is NOT a prophecy. Telling your kid that you will spank them if they don't stop back-talking is not a prophecy. An officer telling you that you will get a ticket if he catches you speeding again is not a prophecy. God telling a nation what will and will not happen to them based upon their obedience or disobedience is not a prophecy.

The Bible saying that in 600 more years, a virgin shall be with child and His name shall be called Immanuel (Isa 7:14), and He will come from Bethlehem (Micah 5:2)-THAT is a prophecy. Ellen G. White made a PROPHECY, and it DID NOT COME TO PASS.

Furthermore, God did not set any dates when He gave His warning in Jeremiah. God did not say, "If you do not turn from your evil ways by the 14th of Nisan I will destroy you".

You can't dig in the Bible far enough to justify EGW's false prophecy. She was possessed by the same spirit of divination that all devilish astrologers and fortune tellers are possessed with.

 

[BobRyan]

You can not claim a "conditional prophecy" without SPELLING OUT THE CONDITIONS.

You are making stuff up and the Bible itself refutes your claim.

In Jeremiah 18 we are told specifically how conditional prophecy works.

in the book of Jonah we see conditional prophecy WITHOUT a statement from Jonah saying "IF you do not repent THEN in 40 days Nineveh will be overthrown".

I think we can all see that point.

Any time any prophecy was made that was CONDITIONAL (which isn't really a "prophecy" at all, it's more of a covenant statement than a prediction) the CONDITIONS WERE LAID OUT.

Again you speak as if you never read Jeremiah 18 or the book of Jonah or the book of Exodus or the book of 2 Chronicles.

I am confused as to why you would do that.

" If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them." v8

The text does not say "if I tell the nation to repent - or else I will bring disaster" in Jeremiah 18.

We see a perfect example of this where the Nation of Judah goes into a time of repentance even though they are under the sentence of doom - and since they repent - the doom is delayed.

This is NOT a prophecy. Telling your kid that you will spank them if they don't stop back-talking is not a prophecy.

Hint: Jonah said "40 days and Ninevah WILL BE Overthrown".

Not "IF you don't repent THEN Nineveh will be overthrown in 40 days".

This just is not that hard.

Jonah's prophecy works - because Jeremiah 18 is a general principle when it comes to blessings and curses.

And Moses experience that in real life.

You can't slash and burn all of scripture in a blind rush to go after Ellen White. You need to think about it first.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[targus]

Bobryan, you are still not explaining how you know the difference between a prophesy that has yet to come true and a FALSE prophesy.

How do you know one from the other?

 

[targus]

"I was shown the company present at the Conference. Said the angel: 'Some food for worms, some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus.'" Testimonies, Vol. 1, p. 131

Both Ellen White and Moses talked about a future event that they fully expected to happen much earlier than it actually did.

So when the future event eventually happens...

Who attending that conference will still be alive?

Hint - NONE, THEY ARE ALL ALREADY DEAD.

This is a FAILED PROPHESY.

No way around it.

 

[BobRyan]

So when the future event eventually happens...

Who attending that conference will still be alive?

.

When Israel went into the land of Canaan 40 years after Moses said they would - who of those that were told they would die in the wilderness actually went in anyway?

Your proclivity for asking a nonsense question as "proof" of something - actually proves nothing at all about the subject at hand.

I am sure you knew that - but I just thought I would add - that I also know it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bobryan, you are still not explaining how you know the difference between a prophesy that has yet to come true and a FALSE prophesy.

Indeed I have explained it. I pointed to Jeremiah 18 as the starting point.

If one is not willing to read the Chapter - then it might look invisible. - but for those that do read it - they find the answer of when to apply it - right there in the chapter.

That part is easy.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[targus]

Indeed I have explained it. I pointed to Jeremiah 18 as the starting point.

If one is not willing to read the Chapter - then it might look invisible. - but for those that do read it - they find the answer of when to apply it - right there in the chapter.

That part is easy.

In Christ,

Bob

I read Jeremiah 18 - now YOU TELL US EXACTLY HOW IT APPLIES.

Since it is YOUR EXPLANATION.

 

[BobRyan]

Thank you for reading Jeremiah 18 - finally. Now quote it. And I will show you in your own quote - the answer to your question.

 

[targus]

Knock yourself out....

At the Potter’s House

18 This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 “Go down to the potter’s house, and there I will give you my message.” 3 So I went down to the potter’s house, and I saw him working at the wheel. 4 But the pot he was shaping from the clay was marred in his hands; so the potter formed it into another pot, shaping it as seemed best to him.

5 Then the word of the Lord came to me. 6 He said, “Can I not do with you, Israel, as this potter does?” declares the Lord. “Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, Israel. 7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.

11 “Now therefore say to the people of Judah and those living in Jerusalem, ‘This is what the Lord says: Look! I am preparing a disaster for you and devising a plan against you. So turn from your evil ways, each one of you, and reform your ways and your actions.’ 12 But they will reply, ‘It’s no use. We will continue with our own plans; we will all follow the stubbornness of our evil hearts.’”

13 Therefore this is what the Lord says:


“Inquire among the nations:
Who has ever heard anything like this?
A most horrible thing has been done
by Virgin Israel.
14 Does the snow of Lebanon
ever vanish from its rocky slopes?
Do its cool waters from distant sources
ever stop flowing?[a]
15 Yet my people have forgotten me;
they burn incense to worthless idols,
which made them stumble in their ways,
in the ancient paths.
They made them walk in byways,
on roads not built up.
16 Their land will be an object of horror
and of lasting scorn;
all who pass by will be appalled
and will shake their heads.
17 Like a wind from the east,
I will scatter them before their enemies;
I will show them my back and not my face
in the day of their disaster.”

18 They said, “Come, let’s make plans against Jeremiah; for the teaching of the law by the priest will not cease, nor will counsel from the wise, nor the word from the prophets. So come, let’s attack him with our tongues and pay no attention to anything he says.”


19 Listen to me, Lord;
hear what my accusers are saying!
20 Should good be repaid with evil?
Yet they have dug a pit for me.
Remember that I stood before you
and spoke in their behalf
to turn your wrath away from them.
21 So give their children over to famine;
hand them over to the power of the sword.
Let their wives be made childless and widows;
let their men be put to death,
their young men slain by the sword in battle.
22 Let a cry be heard from their houses
when you suddenly bring invaders against them,
for they have dug a pit to capture me
and have hidden snares for my feet.
23 But you, Lord, know
all their plots to kill me.
Do not forgive their crimes
or blot out their sins from your sight.
Let them be overthrown before you;
deal with them in the time of your anger.

 

[BobRyan]

7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.

11 “Now therefore say to the people of Judah and those living in Jerusalem, ‘This is what the Lord says: Look! I am preparing a disaster for you and devising a plan against you. .

Now just a tiny bit of highlighting...


7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned.

9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.

11 “Now therefore say to the people of Judah and those living in Jerusalem, ‘This is what the Lord says: Look! I am preparing a disaster for you and devising a plan against you.

===================================

So then God says (by your own quote of the text ) "IF at ANY TIME".

And also "IF at another Time"

For both blessings and curses - the same principle applies.

What the text does NOT say is "IF I say I am bringing disaster UNLESS you repent - only then is it conditional".

What the text does not say is "IF I say I will build up -- but then add an IF statement about persevering in doing well - then ONLY in that case is my promise conditional".

And this is why Jonah is not a false prophet by Bible standards - by your own quote of it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DrJamesAch]

You are making stuff up and the Bible itself refutes your claim.

In Jeremiah 18 we are told specifically how conditional prophecy works.

in the book of Jonah we see conditional prophecy WITHOUT a statement from Jonah saying "IF you do not repent THEN in 40 days Nineveh will be overthrown".

I think we can all see that point.



Again you speak as if you never read Jeremiah 18 or the book of Jonah or the book of Exodus or the book of 2 Chronicles.

I am confused as to why you would do that.



The text does not say "if I tell the nation to repent - or else I will bring disaster" in Jeremiah 18.

We see a perfect example of this where the Nation of Judah goes into a time of repentance even though they are under the sentence of doom - and since they repent - the doom is delayed.




Hint: Jonah said "40 days and Ninevah WILL BE Overthrown".

Not "IF you don't repent THEN Nineveh will be overthrown in 40 days".

This just is not that hard.

Jonah's prophecy works - because Jeremiah 18 is a general principle when it comes to blessings and curses.

And Moses experience that in real life.

You can't slash and burn all of scripture in a blind rush to go after Ellen White. You need to think about it first.

in Christ,

Bob

Ellen G. Whites prophecies had nothing to do with being fulfilled BASED ON CONDITIONS. Show me where her prophecies were CONTINGENT UPON the actions of someone else fulfilling a specific command by God.

A prophecy is a specific description of a future event that IS NOT CONDITIONED on any external circumstances. It is a prediction based upon what God knows will happen and His knowing that it will happen is the only "condition" necessary to deem it a prophecy.

You have erected a "test" for determining that validity of predictions THAT DOES NOT EXIST in Jeremiah 18 or Jonah. There is not one TEST listed in these books. You are interpreting CONSEQUENCES for the failure to OBEY A COMMAND as a TEST for prophecy and that is eisegesis at its worst. Deuteronomy 18 IS as test because it spells out the specific conditions that must be met in order to verify that God actually spoke through a prophet. Your so-called "tests" do not spell out any conditions that would determine that the PROPHET was lying because in Jeremiah and Jonah, the "conditions" are not just BASED ON WHAT THE PROPHET SAID but on the RESPONSE TO WHOM IT WAS GIVEN.

Even if we used your wrongful definition of a test, EGW still fails that "test" because there are NO CONDITIONS detailed in her FAILED PREDICTIONS. Any of the conditions that were spelled out in Jeremiah or Jonah, were also spelled out BEFORE THE EVENT OCCURRED. Thus not only did EGW not specify the conditions, she never spelled out WHY THEY WOULD NOT COME TO PASS IF SUCH CONDITIONS WERE NOT MET.

Clear and simple, she was a FALSE PROPHET.

 

[BobRyan]

Ellen G. Whites prophecies had nothing to do with being fulfilled BASED ON CONDITIONS.

That wild bit of speculation does not work with Jonah, Moses or the writings of Ellen White.

I think we both know that.

Show me where her prophecies were CONTINGENT UPON the actions of someone else fulfilling a specific command by God.

"yet 40 days and Nineveh WILL BE overthrown" does not show any "contingency".

So also when Moses declares that Israel is going to the land of promise he does not say "IF you persevere in staying faithful to God - otherwise we are all going out to die in the wilderness".

I think we both know that as well.

I have never argued that non-SDAs should accept Ellen White as a prophet - but I also do not argue that you can rip up the Bible in a mad dash to attack Ellen White.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[targus]

So then God says (by your own quote of the text ) "IF at ANY TIME".

And also "IF at another Time"

For both blessings and curses - the same principle applies.

What the text does NOT say is "IF I say I am bringing disaster UNLESS you repent - only then is it conditional".

What the text does not say is "IF I say I will build up -- but then add an IF statement about persevering in doing well - then ONLY in that case is my promise conditional".

And this is why Jonah is not a false prophet by Bible standards - by your own quote of it.

You still need to show how you know that this is the case with EGW.

How do you know that her failed prophesies were "conditional" and not just "failed" because she is indeed not a true prophet.

 

[DrJamesAch]

.

That wild bit of speculation does not work with Jonah, Moses or the writings of Ellen White.

I think we both know that.

Then show me the conditions. I have read her prophecies and I don't see them. Show me what I'm missing

"yet 40 days and Nineveh WILL BE overthrown" does not show any "contingency".

Yes, there is a contingency in Jonah:

"8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.

9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?

10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not." Jonah 3:8-10

So also when Moses declares that Israel is going to the land of promise he does not say "IF you persevere in staying faithful to God - otherwise we are all going out to die in the wilderness".

I think we both know that as well.

Israel inherited the land based on a PROMISE God made to Abraham, not a prophecy. And yet still, the blessings that Israel was to receive were based on obedience.

"Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:" Exodus 19:5

And those who did not obey would not come into the land. The fact that Moses himself did not enter the land should tell you something.

"Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun." Numbers 14:30

I have never argued that non-SDAs should accept Ellen White as a prophet - but I also do not argue that you can rip up the Bible in a mad dash to attack Ellen White.

Considering she is the progenitor of the 7DA doctrines, I'd say her false prophecies are of the utmost importance.

"If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked." Prov 29:12

 

[Yeshua1]

You cannot resolve your problem with Jeremiah 18 without at least being willing to quote it.

An easy illustration of this is in one of the rare cases that your half-truth no-truth website actually gives a complete quote from something Ellen White predicted and claimed it to be of God.

"I was shown the company present at the Conference. Said the angel: 'Some food for worms, some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus.'" Testimonies, Vol. 1, p. 131

Both Ellen White and Moses talked about a future event that they fully expected to happen much earlier than it actually did.


And the reason for delay in both cases - is the same. It is found in Jeremiah 18.

This just is not that hard if you are willing to actually read Jeremiah 18.

in Christ,

Bob

canon was closed , NO MORE revealtions have come from God since Apsotle John died!

Ellen White disagrees with Jesus Himself, so THAT alone makes her bogus, a fraud at best, or influenced and used by Satan at worst!