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Emotions in Worship
- Thread starter LarryN
- Start date
O
OCC
Guest
You argued like you did. Who else here said it is the most important part? I don't recall anyone saying that...
The Bible never says that doctrine is THE reason for the church gathering. The verse DHK quoted about continuing in the apostle's doctrine contains thee other elements. The early church continued in the apostles doctrine, fellowship, the breaking of bread, and prayer.
Is there any scripture that states a purpose of why the early church gathered together? One verse says that ont he first day of the week they gathered together 'to break bread.' Compare that to the '4 components' of Acts 2:42 above. One might consider partaking of the Lord's supper a purpose for gathering together, since it is koinonia ("fellowship") with the Lord's body, and it involves the breaking of bread.
We also see that when we gather together we are supposed to 'exhort one another.' That is from that famous passage used to tell people to go to church, Hebrews 10:24-25.
The Bible indicates that when the saints gathered together, the members of the body took turns speaking and singing, using their gifts to edify one another. I Corinthians 14 gives commandments from the Lord on how to do this in an orderly manner.
Clearly, teaching the apostles doctrine is an important part of the church meeting. The New Testament implies that certain of its epistles were read in church gatherings, and one might infer that the Old Testament was as well.
The Greek word most often translated 'worship' in the KJV refers to the Act of bowing down. While there may be times we want to bow down in church, the Bible does not teach that 'proskuneo' (prostrating) is the purpose of a church meeting.
The Bible does not even specify congregational singing must be done in the church. 'Speaking to your selves' could arguably be done by solos. Compare with I Corinthians 14:26 (psalms) for further evidence of this. So the idea that we have to have a modern 'worship service' style meeting is not required by scripture.
Link
Is there any scripture that states a purpose of why the early church gathered together? One verse says that ont he first day of the week they gathered together 'to break bread.' Compare that to the '4 components' of Acts 2:42 above. One might consider partaking of the Lord's supper a purpose for gathering together, since it is koinonia ("fellowship") with the Lord's body, and it involves the breaking of bread.
We also see that when we gather together we are supposed to 'exhort one another.' That is from that famous passage used to tell people to go to church, Hebrews 10:24-25.
The Bible indicates that when the saints gathered together, the members of the body took turns speaking and singing, using their gifts to edify one another. I Corinthians 14 gives commandments from the Lord on how to do this in an orderly manner.
Clearly, teaching the apostles doctrine is an important part of the church meeting. The New Testament implies that certain of its epistles were read in church gatherings, and one might infer that the Old Testament was as well.
The Greek word most often translated 'worship' in the KJV refers to the Act of bowing down. While there may be times we want to bow down in church, the Bible does not teach that 'proskuneo' (prostrating) is the purpose of a church meeting.
The Bible does not even specify congregational singing must be done in the church. 'Speaking to your selves' could arguably be done by solos. Compare with I Corinthians 14:26 (psalms) for further evidence of this. So the idea that we have to have a modern 'worship service' style meeting is not required by scripture.
Link
O
OCC
Guest
I disagree with this:
"Building one and another up has nothing to do with entertainment. We are not in competition with Hollywood. To clap and applaud is to give praise to the performer and not to God."
Nobody said anything about entertainment. When someone is up singing a song it is a blessing and an encouragement...it is not entertainment. To clap or applaud is not giving praise to the performer. You will not convince me otherwise.
"Building one and another up has nothing to do with entertainment. We are not in competition with Hollywood. To clap and applaud is to give praise to the performer and not to God."
Nobody said anything about entertainment. When someone is up singing a song it is a blessing and an encouragement...it is not entertainment. To clap or applaud is not giving praise to the performer. You will not convince me otherwise.
O
OCC
Guest
And actually...is there even supposed to be preaching in the sense that we have it in the church today? We are all supposed to participate in the service..sharing a song, hymn, prayer, or teaching from the Word. To have everyone sit and listen to one man "preach the Word" every week is not, I believe, the way it is done.
T
TexasSky
Guest
Tater,
I agree with you that the word of God is God breathed and inspired. My problem is that I don't believe the words that comes out of a minister's mouth ABOUT God's word are any more inspired by God than the music is.
Most of those I know who write and compose Christian music do it from their hearts and their souls after much prayer. Besides, we are supposed to use our talents as gifts to God. We shouldn't "knock" the offerings of others.
I agree with you that the word of God is God breathed and inspired. My problem is that I don't believe the words that comes out of a minister's mouth ABOUT God's word are any more inspired by God than the music is.
Most of those I know who write and compose Christian music do it from their hearts and their souls after much prayer. Besides, we are supposed to use our talents as gifts to God. We shouldn't "knock" the offerings of others.
T
TexasSky
Guest
I have never looked into the historical evidence regarding why they say it, but I've heard about 5 different Baptist ministers, all with Ph.D.'s state that the early churches were much more like "family gatherings" with "meals" and "chit chat." In fact, one joked that the traditional Baptist Pot-Luck is more biblical than the modern Baptist Church service.
The idea being that while they gathered together they discussed things. Who was having what problem, who had prayer requests, who needed help and how the church could help them.
Face it folks, the Sunday Morning Service isn't doing this in a HUGE number of Baptist Churches.
The idea being that while they gathered together they discussed things. Who was having what problem, who had prayer requests, who needed help and how the church could help them.
Face it folks, the Sunday Morning Service isn't doing this in a HUGE number of Baptist Churches.
The early churches varied in size and number. The church at Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost was 3,000 in number, and a few days later another 4,000 were added, and the Lord added daily such as should be saved. It grew to about 100,000. Likewise the church in Antioch grew rapidly to about 150,000. Many of the churches however were much much smaller meeting in houses.
Size doesn't matter.
Where did they meet. It wasn't until 250 years after Christ that early believers had any buildings to meet in specifically erected for churches. They met in homes, fields, cemetaries (the catacombs), where ever they could. They were believers that were under great persecution during those first three centuries.
What kind of music did they play. History records that they didn't have any musical instruments in the New Testament churches up until about 300 A.D. And even then it was frowned upon. Even in the time of Spurgeon, Spurgeon would not allow musical instruments in his church. It pointed too much in the way of entertainment taking the focus of the congregation away from the crucified Christ.
Now, how things have changed. From the stately hymns of Luther, Wesley, and Fanny Crosby, we have people who compete with Hollywood for entertainment. Churches try to gather people in, not by the power of the Holy Spirit, but by carnal worldly music that is patterened after the world and in competition with it. Most of the albums you could find in a secular store in any mall. The world can't tell the difference between much of CCM and the world's rock. It is all ungodly, for it is all of the flesh. Does it glorify God or does it glorify man? That is the question to ask. The question is usually answered when people give applause and clap. God doesn't need to be entertained. He doesn't want to be applauded. He is not a clown deserving our applause and craving such attention.
Rather he demands all men everywhere to repent.
He demands that we give ourselves "a living sacrifice" which is only a reasonable service.
He demands our all in worship, not in entertainment.
DHK
Size doesn't matter.
Where did they meet. It wasn't until 250 years after Christ that early believers had any buildings to meet in specifically erected for churches. They met in homes, fields, cemetaries (the catacombs), where ever they could. They were believers that were under great persecution during those first three centuries.
What kind of music did they play. History records that they didn't have any musical instruments in the New Testament churches up until about 300 A.D. And even then it was frowned upon. Even in the time of Spurgeon, Spurgeon would not allow musical instruments in his church. It pointed too much in the way of entertainment taking the focus of the congregation away from the crucified Christ.
Now, how things have changed. From the stately hymns of Luther, Wesley, and Fanny Crosby, we have people who compete with Hollywood for entertainment. Churches try to gather people in, not by the power of the Holy Spirit, but by carnal worldly music that is patterened after the world and in competition with it. Most of the albums you could find in a secular store in any mall. The world can't tell the difference between much of CCM and the world's rock. It is all ungodly, for it is all of the flesh. Does it glorify God or does it glorify man? That is the question to ask. The question is usually answered when people give applause and clap. God doesn't need to be entertained. He doesn't want to be applauded. He is not a clown deserving our applause and craving such attention.
Rather he demands all men everywhere to repent.
He demands that we give ourselves "a living sacrifice" which is only a reasonable service.
He demands our all in worship, not in entertainment.
DHK
T
TaterTot
Guest
I think we agree here. I never said the sermon was "inspired", but I believe God's Word (scripture) needs to be central in worship. Songs are wonderful and I love them just as much as the next person, but they are not Scripture (except for scripture songs
T
TaterTot
Guest
oops, double post
The word that keeps on coming up is "manipulation."
When I was in college I took an aesthetics class that ended up raising more questions than it answered. One major question we explored is, "What is art?" We never did exactly figure this out, but we did distinguish some things that are either not art or are bad art.
I think that good art may cause us to feel emotions, but it has depth and complexity to it, and sometimes is open-ended. It invites a dialogue. Bad art or non-art usually trigger emotions by hitting buttons that almost everyone has. My college was littered with this stuff. One poster I particularly remember was a vase of flowers next to a fish bowl. In front of it laid a Bible with a kitten standing on it.
Buttons pressed: Pretty! Cute! Sacred!
Unfortunately I think a lot of contemporary music is like this. The lyrics of a lot of these songs are calculated to incite emotion but are often theologically shallow. The music is simple and repetitive. There is often a definite beat. Most of these praise songs have only two or three verses, but they are often sung repetitively for minutes at a time.
My point of view is that the emotional highs that these praise services can trigger is more due to a kind of hypnotic effect than due to a real spiritual experience. I'm afraid that the spiritual experience of some praise services isn't any more authentic than the experience of dancers in African tribal spirit possession ceremonies.
I hope I don't get stoned for that.
Praise music isn't the only tool that can be used for emotional manipulation. I think some of the old hymns need to be used more sparingly than they are, because they may trigger emotional memories in some churchgoers that may distract attention from the person's actual spiritual state. Likewise, pastors shouldn't pull out sob stories in the pulpit or strut around yelling and putting on a show.
It seems to me that actual spiritual change is something that occurs over time as a result of sober guidance and personal meditation. I'm very skeptical of sudden changes brought about by an emotional worship service. As others have pointed out, usually the emotion fades rapidly, and the conviction goes with it.
This doesn't mean that musicians and pastors should try to not engage people's emotions. It just means that it is important that causing a particular emotional response is not the key intent. The key intent should be to communicate truth that will stay with the churchgoers and get them engaged in thinking, not just reacting.
When I was in college I took an aesthetics class that ended up raising more questions than it answered. One major question we explored is, "What is art?" We never did exactly figure this out, but we did distinguish some things that are either not art or are bad art.
I think that good art may cause us to feel emotions, but it has depth and complexity to it, and sometimes is open-ended. It invites a dialogue. Bad art or non-art usually trigger emotions by hitting buttons that almost everyone has. My college was littered with this stuff. One poster I particularly remember was a vase of flowers next to a fish bowl. In front of it laid a Bible with a kitten standing on it.
Buttons pressed: Pretty! Cute! Sacred!
Unfortunately I think a lot of contemporary music is like this. The lyrics of a lot of these songs are calculated to incite emotion but are often theologically shallow. The music is simple and repetitive. There is often a definite beat. Most of these praise songs have only two or three verses, but they are often sung repetitively for minutes at a time.
My point of view is that the emotional highs that these praise services can trigger is more due to a kind of hypnotic effect than due to a real spiritual experience. I'm afraid that the spiritual experience of some praise services isn't any more authentic than the experience of dancers in African tribal spirit possession ceremonies.
I hope I don't get stoned for that.
Praise music isn't the only tool that can be used for emotional manipulation. I think some of the old hymns need to be used more sparingly than they are, because they may trigger emotional memories in some churchgoers that may distract attention from the person's actual spiritual state. Likewise, pastors shouldn't pull out sob stories in the pulpit or strut around yelling and putting on a show.
It seems to me that actual spiritual change is something that occurs over time as a result of sober guidance and personal meditation. I'm very skeptical of sudden changes brought about by an emotional worship service. As others have pointed out, usually the emotion fades rapidly, and the conviction goes with it.
This doesn't mean that musicians and pastors should try to not engage people's emotions. It just means that it is important that causing a particular emotional response is not the key intent. The key intent should be to communicate truth that will stay with the churchgoers and get them engaged in thinking, not just reacting.
I think we agree here. I never said the sermon was "inspired", but I believe God's Word (scripture) needs to be central in worship. Songs are wonderful and I love them just as much as the next person, but they are not Scripture (except for scripture songs
SeekingTruth
Member
Right on DHK.
IMHO too many of our brothers and sisters in Christ do not see the harm in allowing things of the world to contaminate the church.
IMHO too many of our brothers and sisters in Christ do not see the harm in allowing things of the world to contaminate the church.
T
TexasSky
Guest
I find this comment "The music is simple and repetitive" interesting in that most of the music I hear that fits this is "scripture song" music. Where a bible verse is set to music and sung over and over.
I also find that the old hymns were more "tear jerking" "emotional" to me. "Old Rugged Cross," "Amazing Grace," "He Walks With Me," "Have Thine Own Way Lord," "Blessed Assurance."
I also find that the old hymns were more "tear jerking" "emotional" to me. "Old Rugged Cross," "Amazing Grace," "He Walks With Me," "Have Thine Own Way Lord," "Blessed Assurance."
T
TexasSky
Guest
P.S. Tater,
We agree.
We agree.
Yes, I don't like repetive "scripture song" any better than repetitive praise choruses.
I mentioned above that old hymns are vulnerable to use in unintentional emotional manipulation. Those hymns that you mentioned as well as other old hymns often bring emotional baggage along with them, like being the song played at grandma's funeral, or the song I got saved to, or the song they always used to end church with when I was a kid.
I think sometimes these things can get in the way, such as when a person is going to take Communion and should be praying and confessing sins, and is too emotionally distracted by "Amazing Grace" to do this adequately.
I mentioned above that old hymns are vulnerable to use in unintentional emotional manipulation. Those hymns that you mentioned as well as other old hymns often bring emotional baggage along with them, like being the song played at grandma's funeral, or the song I got saved to, or the song they always used to end church with when I was a kid.
I think sometimes these things can get in the way, such as when a person is going to take Communion and should be praying and confessing sins, and is too emotionally distracted by "Amazing Grace" to do this adequately.
I agree the Word is inspired by God. The Pastor prays before he prepares his sermon, maybe God directs him what to preach about, but the Pastor develops his sermon around the message.
Case in point(I'm not a pastor), on the eve of our sons graduation from Bethany College of Missions, one of his classmates asked me to say a prayer after the evening meal at pregrad ceremoies. I agreed, as I headed back to our room I thought' I've never prayed
before over 200 people before. I asked God"what do I pray" He said "read from Psalms". I said "which one, He told me, I forgot now which one it was, but it fit right into the ceremony. It seems that He needs to lead me by the hand when He has something for me to do. Whereas a professional like a Pastor can put together sermon without God holding his hand.
Case in point(I'm not a pastor), on the eve of our sons graduation from Bethany College of Missions, one of his classmates asked me to say a prayer after the evening meal at pregrad ceremoies. I agreed, as I headed back to our room I thought' I've never prayed
before over 200 people before. I asked God"what do I pray" He said "read from Psalms". I said "which one, He told me, I forgot now which one it was, but it fit right into the ceremony. It seems that He needs to lead me by the hand when He has something for me to do. Whereas a professional like a Pastor can put together sermon without God holding his hand.
T
TexasSky
Guest
Petrel,
If you don't like old music or new music, are you suggesting church become just another lecture? Because honestly - I'd just stop going and stick to Sunday School where at least I could participate.
If you don't like old music or new music, are you suggesting church become just another lecture? Because honestly - I'd just stop going and stick to Sunday School where at least I could participate.