Emotions in Worship

[emeraldctyangel]

Originally posted by Marcia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by King James:
I disagree with this:

"Building one and another up has nothing to do with entertainment. We are not in competition with Hollywood. To clap and applaud is to give praise to the performer and not to God."

Nobody said anything about entertainment. When someone is up singing a song it is a blessing and an encouragement...it is not entertainment. To clap or applaud is not giving praise to the performer. You will not convince me otherwise.

So why or who are you clapping for/to?? </font>[/QUOTE]Because I am inspired to do so by the words/melody of the song. The joy felt because of Jesus and His perfect gift or the gentle humbling of God's word can be expressed in song or sermon. There is nothing wrong with recognizing another soul who has reached out and been wrapped in the arms of the Lord. It is an awesome thing. And if I witness an awesome thing, I want to celebrate it.

Go ahead, tell me what is wrong with that.

 

[Link]

DHK,

The Bible never warns us against church music being too manipulating, emotional, or involving the emotions. SO this should not be our primary concern.

The Psalms say 'play skillfully with a loud noise.' They also command the involvement of the emotions when they say 'rejoice.' Music can be pleasing to the Lord and still involve the emotions.

If a Christian enjoys praising God, then singing praise music can be 'entertaining.' If it is entertaining that does not mean it is wrong. If it is entertaining or emotional, that does not mean it is good, either. But I think you are focusing on the wrong issue. The Bible does not command us to make our music un-entertaining, or non-emotional.

I heard an interesting quote in church about modern music that was too entertaining. The preachers surprised us by pointing out that these comments were about old hymns. Wesley took flack for his modern hymns. How is it that the pub tunes of ages gone by turn into holy church music tunes of later generations, who hate yet more modern praise music.

A lot of praise music is good, repeating scripture or scriptural concepts.

 

[Petrel]

Originally posted by TexasSky:
Petrel,

If you don't like old music or new music, are you suggesting church become just another lecture? Because honestly - I'd just stop going and stick to Sunday School where at least I could participate.

Not at all. I don't mind either old music or new music, and I don't mind music that causes us to feel as long as it also causes us to think. I mind emotionally manipulative music. It's my opinion that much new music is designed and sung in such a way as to be emotionally manipulative, and a lot of old hymns carry so much emotional baggage for some people that they can be emotionally manipulative.

There are hundreds of hymns that are rarely sung, and that's a pity. For congregational music I think that it would be a good thing to learn some of these old hymns that have been forgotten. I also don't have anything against the use of praise choruses as long as they are theologically significant and not beaten to death by vain repetition.

It seems to me that Baptists traditionally haven't attributed much value to the arts, chiefly the visual arts, literature, and music. Looking at the natural world I see that God delights in beauty. There are many other denominations that have historically had more interest in music, and have produced many works with great artistic and theological merit. It would enrich Baptist tradition to borrow some of these anthems, songs, and responses.

In Reply to Link:

Why do you not think that emotionally manipulative music is a bad thing? The process of manipulation is inherently dishonest and inauthentic. It treats other people as tools to be used for one's own purpose. I think emotional manipulation is dishonest and disrespectful.

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by TexasSky:
Tater,

I agree with you that the word of God is God breathed and inspired. My problem is that I don't believe the words that comes out of a minister's mouth ABOUT God's word are any more inspired by God than the music is.

Most of those I know who write and compose Christian music do it from their hearts and their souls after much prayer. Besides, we are supposed to use our talents as gifts to God. We shouldn't "knock" the offerings of others.

To an extent, if the pastor is relying on his own study and intellect, it is not God inspired. I would hope that after much prayer through the week and that morning (the same with the music which is written), it would be the Holy Spirit speaking through him, which then would make the sermon preached God inspired.

 

[TaterTot]

I am talking about inspiration of scripture being central. not someone feeling inspired by God to do something. Two different ball games

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Link:
DHK,

The Bible never warns us against church music being too manipulating, emotional, or involving the emotions. SO this should not be our primary concern.

The New Testament doesn't mention church music at all. So your point is moot. It has not relevance. It says nothing about classical, nor does it say anything about punk. The fact is that we know from history that the early church did not use any musical instruments at all.
Having said that, the emotional appeal of music is not our primary concern the Word of God is always central in the church.

The Psalms say 'play skillfully with a loud noise.' They also command the involvement of the emotions when they say 'rejoice.' Music can be pleasing to the Lord and still involve the emotions.

David didn't play with a "loud noise" before Saul. In those Psalms when you hear the descriptions of dancing and playing with a loud noise, they are allmost always military songs, or songs of victory when the soldiers are coming back from war. We don't have that situation in our culture any longer.

If a Christian enjoys praising God, then singing praise music can be 'entertaining.'

How far down the slippery road will you go? Is everything one does "praising to the Lord? Watching TV is entertainment. There are some Christians that play on professional NHL teams, as there in the NFL, or the ABL, or the NBA, etc. Therefore, according to your logic, watching professional sports is godly entertainment because each of them may have some Christians in them. Hey you might in find some godly entertainment in a movie that contains some porn, as long as their is a moral to the story, right?
Here is what the Bible says:

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Take your stand. Are you a friend of the world or a friend of God. You cannot be both.
If you are a friend to the ungodly CCM music that caters to the emotions of the flesh, then you are not a friend of God. It is that plain. Entertainment is of the flesh. God doesn't want your entertainment. He is not amused.
Entertainment is amusement. Have you ever thought about the word amusement. Let me define it for you:

a-muse. "muse" to think or meditate.
"a" is a negative prefix meaning "no" or "not"
Thus "amusement" means "no thinking"
When you sit in front of your TV and are entertained or "amused" it requires "no thinking." That is something that God condemns. God condemns entertainment. He condemns "no thinking" He constantily reminds us to "study to show ourselves to be approved..." to "search the Scriptures..." to meditate day and night..." to "take heed to the dcotrine.." to proclaim his word," etc. We are not to be entertained or to try to entertain God. That is sacrilege. We have a work to do. It is called the Great Commission. It is not entertainment. God doesn't want or entertainment, nor has need of it.
Mostly he condemns it.

If it is entertaining that does not mean it is wrong.

Show me in the Bible where it is right. The only one that entertained was Satan. The only one that provoked individuals to have "fun" entertainment, was Satan. Remember Lot, Lot's wife, and what they missed at Sodom--all the fun they had? Remeber the fun the men wanted to have with the angelic guests that Lot had? That was entertainment.
Remember the entertainment that Shechem had with Dinah, Simeon and Levi's sister? He certainly entertained her, didn't he. She probably had fun with him as well.
Samsom had a little fun as well, until he got his life straightened out with God.
Where does God condone entertainment?

If it is entertaining or emotional, that does not mean it is good, either. But I think you are focusing on the wrong issue. The Bible does not command us to make our music un-entertaining, or non-emotional.

The Bible is against amusement. It has no place for fun. That doesn't mean a Christian can't live a joyous life that rejoices in the Lord. But entertainment for entertainment's sake is not condoned in the Bible. If it is, back it up with Scripture.

I heard an interesting quote in church about modern music that was too entertaining. The preachers surprised us by pointing out that these comments were about old hymns. Wesley took flack for his modern hymns. How is it that the pub tunes of ages gone by turn into holy church music tunes of later generations, who hate yet more modern praise music.

That is purely anecdotal, and in fact not true. Again back it up with reliable historical facts. Wesley did not use pub tunes for his hymnns. Get your facts straight.

A lot of praise music is good, repeating scripture or scriptural concepts.

Nothing wrong with Scripture. The medium must fit the message. What kind of medium do you use to carry forth the Holy message of God's holy word?
DHK

 

[webdog]

DHK, since you do not believe you should enjoy yourself at church, do you have a miserable time each Sunday? If you say no, are you having fun at church?

Where in the Bible does it say entertainment is wrong? Why did God allow man to invent sports or games? I think your view of worship is a little too much.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by webdog:
DHK, since you do not believe you should enjoy yourself at church, do you have a miserable time each Sunday? If you say no, are you having fun at church?

You have made a false dichotomy.
The Bible says:
Rejoice in the Lord, and again I say rejoice.
I have never had so much happiness and joy in my life since I became a Christian. The Christian life is not a life of misery, but a life of victory, joy and rejoicing.
Again Jesus said:
Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: Ask and ye shall receive that your joy may be full.

Where in the Bible does it say entertainment is wrong? Why did God allow man to invent sports or games? I think your view of worship is a little too much.

Show me instances of entertainment in the Bible that are Godly. Show me where entertainment is right. I can show you what God wants you to do. I can show you the Great Commission.
I can suggest that you look up Rom 12:1 where Paul beseeches you to be a living sactifice. What fun is there in that.
Jesus said die to self. He said pick up your cross and follow me. Put your self to death. What fun is there in that. That leaves no room for entertainment.

I gave you examples of entertainment.
The children of Israel entertained themselves waiting for Moses as they danced naked around a golden calf beating out their rock music all that time.

The homosexuals of Sodom entertained themselves.
Esau, the Bible says, was a profane man. He entertained himself. He took up the sport of hunting. What did he gain from it but a curse.

Where in the Bible does God ever condone entertainment. The onus is on you to show me where God condones it, not me to prove it to you.
DHK

 

[TexasSky]

DHK,

With all due respect, he did not make a false dichtomoy. You did write. The Bible is against amusement. It has no place for fun.

And you are ooooh, so wrong.

The word rejoice appears 258 times in the bible.
MANY of these verses say: "and thou shalt rejoice before the LORD thy God "

Joyful appears 30 times.

Make a joyful noise unto God, all ye lands:


Sing aloud unto God our strength: make a joyful noise unto the God of Jacob.

Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound:

Psalms 98:4 - Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all the earth: make a loud noise, and rejoice, and sing praise.

Psalms 98:6 - With trumpets and sound of cornet make a joyful noise before the LORD, the King.

Psalms 113:9 - He maketh the barren woman to keep house, and to be a joyful mother of children.

Ecclesiastes 7:14 - In the day of prosperity be joyful

Ecclesiastes 9:9 - Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun.

---Ephesians 5:19 - Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Colossians 3:16 - Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.


Proverbs 10:28 - The hope of the righteous shall be gladness

Acts 2:46 - And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

Christ was always attending feasts, weddings, celebrations. Remember the time Mary came to Him and fussed that her sister wasn't helping do the dishes, and Christ pointed out that fellowship with Christ was more important.

Proverbs 17:22 - A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones.

Ecclesiastes 8:15 - Then I commended mirth, because a man hath no better thing under the sun, than to eat, and to drink, and to be merry: for that shall abide with him of his labour the days of his life, which God giveth him under the sun.

James 5:13 - Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.

 

[blackbird]

What do I think about emotions in church music??

Emotions will fool ya!!

I think about when the Philistines stole the Hebrew Ark---David and a a couple of his "boys" went to fetch it from the house of Abinadab. You know the story!!!

A new cart is made!

The ark is placed on the cart!

They then proceeded toward Jerusalem!

And then the music started!!! Lots and lots of music!! 2 Samuel 6:5 says, "And David and all the house of Israel played before the Lord on all manner of instruments made of fir wood, even on harps, and on psalteries, and on timbrels, and on cornets, and on cymbals."

Then tragedy of all tragedies!!! Uzziah "bites the dust"----God kills him "graveyard dead" because of disobedience!!!

My point is----just because there's music there---doesn't mean that everything is alright!!! Uzziah----just seconds from his death---was probably the most emotional man in Israel.

I sometimes wonder about----saaaaaaaay---going to a gospel concert---whether it be Southern Gospel--or Contemporary---or whatever----and you see all the folks getting "hipped up" with emotion---cryin' and squallin' their eyes out---and I wonder about all the folks there who raise their hands in praise----some whos hands have just "shed innocent blood" and some hands who are well on their way to "shed innocent blood"

I'm not saying that there be no emotions---such as the emotionless citizens of Vulcan(for all Star Trekkies)----neither am I saying that emotions cannot run rampant----recently, I took a group of Youth from church to a "Kutless" concert----music was in the decibel range of a jetliner roarin' down the runway at full throttle takeing off---you get the picture!!!! Some of my youth left the building after the concert---looking like they had been in the boxing ring with Mike Tyson---sweat drenchin' their bodies----sweat pouring off the cuffs of their blue jean pants!!! Some made their way to within five feet of the speaker systems and stayed there through the whole concert----I was in the very back corner of the 3000 seat auditorium with earplugs in that will drown out the sound of a locamotive at full throttle!!!!You get the picture, huh???

All in all----I am led to believe that God doesn't look at emotions as we praise Him!!! #1 He knows that some emotions are fake!! #2 He knows that some people are prone to get a "tad" more emotional than others---but that others who are not AS emotional are just as "right" in His eyes as the other fella is!!! Rather He's looking for clean hearts and holy hands---untouched and untainted by the world!

Who can come into God's tabernacle and who can dwell in God's holy hill????

Those emotional??? Unemotional????

NO!

Read carefully the words of Psalm 15:1-5

Lord, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? Who shall dwell in thy holy hill? He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart. He that backbiteth not with his tongue, nor doeth evil to his neighbor, nor taketh up a reproach against his neighbor. In whose eyes a vile person is contemned, but he honoreth them that fear the Lord. He that sweareth to his own hurt, and changeth not. He that putteth not out his money to usury, nor taketh reward against the innocent. He that doeth these things shall never be moved."

Emotions---can't trust 'um!!!!!

[ July 15, 2005, 06:04 PM: Message edited by: blackbird ]

 

[Petrel]

Originally posted by blackbird:
Who can come into God's tabernacle and who can dwell in God's holy hill????

Those emotional??? Unemotional????

NO!

Read carefully the words of Psalm 15:1-5

Lord, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? Who shall dwell in thy holy hill? He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart. He that backbiteth not with his tongue, nor doeth evil to his neighbor, nor taketh up a reproach against his neighbor. In whose eyes a vile person is contemned, but he honoreth them that fear the Lord. He that sweareth to his own hurt, and changeth not. He that putteth not out his money to usury, nor taketh reward against the innocent. He that doeth these things shall never be moved."

Emotions---can't trust 'um!!!!!

Good answer, although I think you went over your quota for punctuation marks.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by TexasSky:
DHK,

With all due respect, he did not make a false dichtomoy. You did write. The Bible is against amusement. It has no place for fun.

And you are ooooh, so wrong.

The word rejoice appears 258 times in the bible.
MANY of these verses say: "and thou shalt rejoice before the LORD thy God "

Joyful appears 30 times.

Go back and read my post. In fact read both of them. I am not wrong. The Bible is against amusement, entertaiment. God does not need to be entertained, neither does his ambassadors. I specifically differentiated between amusement or fun, and rejoicing or joy. But maybe you just didn't read my post.
DHK

 

[OCC]

DHK, unless something is PROHIBITED by Scripture it is pretty much ok. Where is enjoying a sport prohibited in Scripture? I like to go to a sporting event once in a while and I am not going to put up with people like you telling people like me that I am a friend of the world and an enemy of God for that simple reason. You have a low view of God if you think so.

Great Commission...are YOU fulfilling that while you are on here preaching to the choir that we are friends of the world if we like a kind of music you don't like, or a sport you don't permit Christians to watch? Give me a break dude! Why don't you just sell your computer and get off the internet then, as we can say you are being entertained while you are online...thus negating pretty much everything you have said.

Let's have a little fun here people. What do we call people who strain at gnats? What do we call people who try to choke the life and joy out of believers in order to have some control or power over them? In true cheerleader fashion...give me a P! Give me an H!...'nuff said!!

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by King James:
DHK, unless something is PROHIBITED by Scripture it is pretty much ok. Where is enjoying a sport prohibited in Scripture? I like to go to a sporting event once in a while and I am not going to put up with people like you telling people like me that I am a friend of the world and an enemy of God for that simple reason. You have a low view of God if you think so.

Great Commission...are YOU fulfilling that while you are on here preaching to the choir that we are friends of the world if we like a kind of music you don't like, or a sport you don't permit Christians to watch? Give me a break dude! Why don't you just sell your computer and get off the internet then, as we can say you are being entertained while you are online...thus negating pretty much everything you have said.

Let's have a little fun here people. What do we call people who strain at gnats? What do we call people who try to choke the life and joy out of believers in order to have some control or power over them? In true cheerleader fashion...give me a P! Give me an H!...'nuff said!!

Rant on if you will.
I only ask that you defend your position with Scripture.

Romans 12:1-2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

1 John 2:15-16 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Luke 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Mark 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

Mark 8:36-37 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.
DHK

 

[Link]

DHK

Your line of reasoning is sophistry, particularly on entertainment being wrong because it is a-musing, musing means thinking, and therefore it is wrong.

I can use sophistry, too. 'Muse' is the Greek word for false gods, goddesses to be specific. So being without demons that manifest themselves as women is a GOOD thing, so we should all be a-mused. I am being facetious, of course, but this argument holds about as much weight as yours does.

My point is that the Bible does not tell us to stay away from things that are 'entertaining.' That is not the issue. All things are to be done unto edification. One can be edifying and hold the interest of the congregation--i.e. be 'entertaining' at the same time. Our concern should not be whether or not it is entertaining,but whether or not it is edifying. If it is edifying and it holds everyone's interest (i.e. entertaining) then it may be fine.

I never argued for being entertaining for entertainment's sake. My point is that if the Bible does not condemn being enteraining, you should not reject something edifying just because it also happens to be 'entertaining.'

Maybe we should define terms. I consider something to be entertaining if those observing find it interesting.

As for the church not having times of victory as Israel did in a military context, I disagree. Christ is a Conquerer, and we can remember this in our singing. He has conquered sin and death. David, the conquering hero, is a type of Christ.

My concern here is that you can simply label something you do not like as 'entertaining' and therefore condemn it. YOur diatribe about being a friend of the world in a discussion about church music does not make much sense. What makes even the funkiest church music less 'worldly' than an old hymn? Both use musical styles that were or are used by the 'world' at some time or another. Arew Christians forbidden from using the same notes that unbelievers use in their music? If not, you shouldn't be singing the old hymns.

As for sports, that is not something I am into, but Paul said physical exercise had a little bit of profit to it. So we should not condemn it. I see no scripture that condemns a believer for watching a sporting event. Paul used sporting events as illustrations (beating the air, running to win the prize.) Like anything else, if you put it before God it is a problem.

By the way, do you not believe in musical instruments in church meetings?

Your argument 'from history' that the early church had no instruments is an argument from silence. Early church meetings were influenced by the synagogue, and instruments were removed from the synagogues over mourning the destruction of the Jerusalem temple around 70 AD. So it is quite possible that Paul and Christ himself sang songs of praise to God in the synagogue to the sound of musical instruments. The earliest believers in Jerusalem probably sang temple songs to musical accompaniment as they were active in the temple system there in Jerusalem.

It is possible that some of the early churches, like synagogues of that time, used instruments, and, with the cultural influence of the synagogue being what it was in the Christian Jewish community, got away from the practice around 70 AD.

Btw, the singer of one of the songs asks how they could sing the songs of Zion in a strange land. If the psalms say this about the era before the second temple, there was a logical basis for Jews to stop using instruments in synagogues after the second temple was destroyed.

 

[OCC]

DHK, no rant whatsoever. But I do apologize for coming on so strong (though I know you won't apologize for condemning people to hell for watching a sporting event). I don't have to defend myself...Scripture does.

You have provided no Scripture that says I am an enemy of God for going to a baseball game. Tell me, if you go to a baseball game and share the gospel with someone are you not fulfilling the Great Commission? Even if you don't witness to anyone are you not glorifying God by being out and just watching a game you like, enjoying being out in God's creation and thanking God for the opportunity. You limit God and have no Scripture to back it up. You are spewing hot air and you got taken up on it.

You mention denying yourself. Why are you even on here then? Shouldn't you throw your computer out?

Link, thank you for doing an excellent job on your response above. Much better than I would have done.

 

[blackbird]

Link & King James

I believe the OP concerns "Emotions in Worship"---and does not include such things as going to baseball games, watching birds flit and fly through the air and watching a sun set---but I believe the OP has to do with what goes on in a given worship service at church----so may we all be good boys and girls and stick to the subject at hand----

Blackbird

 

[OCC]

blackbird, I believe DHK brought sports and everything else into it. I only responded to him. Thank you...

 

[blackbird]

There's lots of churches who have "sports" teams----IMHO---its easier to dam up Niagra Falls with toothpicks than to find a worshipful moment on a church ball field!!! Emotions flare and bats fly and people "pop off" at the mouth, though!!! No worship in that!!!

 

[OCC]

Yeah but who said a ball game was worship? It is "fun" and fun is not forbidden. However, I stand by what I said. One CAN glorify God by playing in a baseball game or watching a baseball game. "Whatever you do, do to the glory of God" ya know?

Maybe bats fly and mouths shoot off at a church ball game but I don't see that happen very often in Major League Baseball.