End of Days? What signs do you see?

[Grasshopper]

How can we interprete that figuratively? messiah comes to earth, earthquake happens, pretty much lliteral sense to me intended!

Same way, scriptures speaking of us rising to meet him in the air in physical bodies is lietral, as is ruling upon earth!

Do you take this literally?

Micah 1:3 “For behold, the LORD is coming out of His place; He will come down And tread on the high places of the earth. The mountains will melt under Him, And the valleys will split Like wax before the fire, Like waters poured down a steep place. All this is for the transgression of Jacob And for the sins of the house of Israel. What is the transgression of Jacob? Is it not Samaria? And what are the high places of Judah? Are they not Jerusalem? Therefore I will make Samaria a heap of ruins in the field, Places for planting a vineyard; I will pour down her stones into the valley, And I will uncover her foundations. All her carved images shall be beaten to pieces, And all her pay as a harlot shall be burned with the fire; All her idols I will lay desolate, For she gathered it from the pay of a harlot,** And they shall return to the pay of a harlot.”

 

[righteousdude2]

Good Point, Zaac!

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Matt. 24:3-14

I remember reading this as a kid and thinking how about the earthquakes. Every earthquake I used to read about or hear about in the news had generally devastated some city and the epicenter was on land.

I distinctly remember when the tsunami hit back in 2004 in the SE Asia regions thatthey talked about how the epicenter was so deep that divers couldn't survive there.

I agree with JWP's sentiment. Is there anything to preclude His imminent return?

Let me ask, when we read that there will be earthquakes in "divers" place, does that mean under the sea waters? Every time we have earthquakes from down deep below the ocean waters, I wonder if that is Scripturally in line with that particular warning!

There has been a steady increase in underwater quakes .... so what do you think about this?

 

[righteousdude2]

Thanks Brother....

The problem i that you see those verses through spiritualized Covenant theology lenses by brother, while isee them thru Dispy literal meaning intended ones!

..... do you think that how you see the word rapture, which isn't Scriptural, so to speak, is how pentecosts few the gift of tonges carrying over into today? Just had to ask, I do not want to get us off track, and you are welcome to answer me in private mail! God bless!

 

[OldRegular]

1 Thessalonians 4

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.​

This passage could just as easily apply to the General Resurrection that Jesus Christ promises in John 5:28, 29 or that described by the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15. In fact the wording is very similar to that used by the Apostle in 1 Corinthians 15:51, 52; the trump of God and the last trumpet! There is no there there, nothing that proves a pre-trib removal of the Church. The Apostle is simply comforting the Christians at Thessalonica as he says in verse 13 regarding those Saints already dead.

2 Corinthians 12
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.[/LEFT]

HankD​

The Apostle Paul had a dramatic experience with the Lord, why I cannot say!

 

[Grasshopper]

Let me ask, when we read that there will be earthquakes in "divers" place, does that mean under the sea waters? Every time we have earthquakes from down deep below the ocean waters, I wonder if that is Scripturally in line with that particular warning!

There has been a steady increase in underwater quakes .... so what do you think about this?

NASB
11and there will be great earthquakes, and in various places plagues and famines; and there will be terrors and great signs from heaven

 

[Zaac]

Let me ask, when we read that there will be earthquakes in "divers" place, does that mean under the sea waters? Every time we have earthquakes from down deep below the ocean waters, I wonder if that is Scripturally in line with that particular warning!

There has been a steady increase in underwater quakes .... so what do you think about this?

I think that's EXACTLY what it means. Used to be that you rarely if ever heard about such earthquakes. Now that seems to be the majority.

 

[Grasshopper]

I think that's EXACTLY what it means. Used to be that you rarely if ever heard about such earthquakes. Now that seems to be the majority.

4. Earthquakes

Earthquakes are recorded in a variety of places prior to AD 70. The city of Pompeii was severely damaged by an earthquake in AD 63. Others took place in Crete, Smyrna Miletus, Laodicea, Colossae, Rome and Judea.

http://www.kingwatch.co.nz/Times_Seasons/False_Teaching/earthquakes_wars.htm

 

[Zaac]

4. Earthquakes

Earthquakes are recorded in a variety of places prior to AD 70. The city of Pompeii was severely damaged by an earthquake in AD 63. Others took place in Crete, Smyrna Miletus, Laodicea, Colossae, Rome and Judea.

http://www.kingwatch.co.nz/Times_Seasons/False_Teaching/earthquakes_wars.htm

We're talking about the ones that originate under the oceans, not land.:thumbsup:

 

[Iconoclast]

Yeshua1
You have been asked 3 times to deal with these verses,,if these men have spiritualized these verses away...you explain them

The problem i that you see those verses through spiritualized Covenant theology lenses by brother, while isee them thru Dispy literal meaning intended ones!

Thus St. John uses the fundamental
structures of creation in describing the fall of Israel:
1. Earth
2. Sun
3. Moon
4. Stars
5. Firmament
6. Land
7. Man
These seven judgments are detailed in terms of the
familiar prophetic imagery of the Old Testament. First,
destabilization: a giant earthquake (cf. Ex. 19:18; Ps.
18:7, 15; 60:2; Isa. 13:13-14; 24:19-20; Nab. 1:5).

Second, the eclipse and mourning of Israel: The sun
became black as sackcloth made of hair (Ex. 10:21-23;
Job 9:7; Isa. 5:30; 24:23; Ezek. 32:7; Joel 2:10, 31; 3:15;
Amos 8:9; Mic. 3:6).

the continued image of an eclipse, with the idea of defilement added: The whole moon became like blood (Job 25:5; Isa. 13:10; 24:23;
Ezek. 32:7; Joel 2:10, 31).


6:11-14
that Israel’s time has run out: The stars fell to the earth,
as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a
great wind (Job 9:7; 13ccl. 12:2; lsa. 13:10; 34:4; Ezek.
32:8; Dan. 8:10; Joel 2:10; 3:15);


the great wind, of
course, was brought by the Four Horsemen, who in
Zechariah’s original imagery were the Four Winds
(Zech. 6:5), and who will be reintroduced to St. John
in that form in 7:1; and the fig tree is Israel herself
(Matt. 21:19; 24:32-34; Luke 21:29-32).



Israel now simply disappears: The heaven vanished like a
scroll when it is rolled up21 (Isa. 34:4; 51:6; Ps. 102:25-
26; on the symbolism of Israel as “heaven,” see Isa.
51:15-16; Jer. 4:23-31; cf. Heb 12:26-27).


Sixth, the
Gentile powers are shaken as well: Every mountain
and island were moved out of their places (Job 9:5-6;
14:18-19; 28:9-11; Isa. 41:5, 15-16; Ezek. 38:20; Nab.
1:4-8; Zeph. 2:11).22 God’s “old creation,” Israel, is thus
to be de-created, as the Kingdom is transferred to the
Church, the New Creation (cf. 2 Pet. 3:7-14). Because
the rulers in God’s Vineyard have killed His Son, they
too will be killed (Matt. 21:33-45). The Vineyard itself
will be broken down, destroyed, and laid waste (Isa.
5:1-7). In God’s righteous destruction of Israel, He will
shake even heaven and earth (Matt. 24:29-30; Heb.
12:26-28) in order to deliver His Kingdom over to His
new nation, the Church.

 

[Iconoclast]

The lord not desiring that any should perish, thall all would repentand believ in jesus to salvation!

Where do you see this?

 

[righteousdude2]

Are you at a truck stop?

Where do you see this?

Was wondering if you were having a late coffee and donut. You have a lot of time on your hands, at least enough to write this! Be safe out there brother! :thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

righteousdude2

Was wondering if you were having a late coffee and donut. You have a lot of time on your hands, at least enough to write this! Be safe out there brother!

Hello Dude,

yes..i am in Biggs Oregon at a pilot truckstop [exit 104} it is east of Portland along the Columbia river,for the night...ran out of hours till morning time. i get some great photos along this river....they are on my Bb albums section...I should add more...i have a ton of photos...i will add some from the trip out here.
had a couple of fish fillets....on sale 159..:laugh:

Have not had any gospel opportunities yet...but i am still hopeful:wavey:
My best times are when i am just doing my normal reading or study.
people see me with my books or my laptop.Some of the drivers come over and want to know if I am looking at porn....so they have some back-peddling to do, when they come over and see sermon audio being downloaded:laugh: Some even try and make like they are religious???

most people are on the move and not stopping for conversation...i am checking the board and doing some reading for now...how are you?

I had delivered about 100 miles south of Eugene....then worked my way north ,,making four pick-ups heading back to Long Island...

If i remember...i will take some photos when i am in Grand Island....That sounded like you enjoyed your time there and were used of the Lord.
I found that encouraging....see Dude...good things happen when you remain contained in your body:laugh:

 

[righteousdude2]

Thanks...

righteousdude2


Hello Dude,

yes..i am in Biggs Oregon at a pilot truckstop [exit 104} it is east of Portland along the Columbia river,for the night...ran out of hours till morning time. i get some great photos along this river....they are on my Bb albums section...I should add more...i have a ton of photos...i will add some from the trip out here.
had a couple of fish fillets....on sale 159..

Have not had any gospel opportunities yet...but i am still hopeful:
My best times are when i am just doing my normal reading or study.
people see me with my books or my laptop.Some of the drivers come over and want to know if I am looking at porn....so they have some back-peddling to do, when they come over and see sermon audio being downloaded:laugh: Some even try and make like they are religious???

most people are on the move and not stopping for conversation...i am checking the board and doing some reading for now...how are you?

I had delivered about 100 miles south of Eugene....then worked my way north ,,making four pick-ups heading back to Long Island...

If i remember...i will take some photos when i am in Grand Island....That sounded like you enjoyed your time there and were used of the Lord.
I found that encouraging....see Dude...good things happen when you remain contained in your body:laugh:

I can hear in your voice, the awesomeness of what you see as you travel the hioghways of our country! That area you are in is one more pice of evidence of a creative hand involved in making this earth and the universe it lives within!

Thanks for the offer of some photos from GI. Yes, that was the, and I mean THE most important time in my life. Being away from parents and family, I had no one to turn to, except God, and while there were six total grants and five other program, county directors, mine was the most successful. It was the reason that when the grant ended that the head of state social services movedd me toa permanent position of my choosing, in management!

Now there is one thing for sure ... I did nothing in GI that was ordained of Him! I could see His favor and His hand in all I did, and He caused me to gain favor in the hearts and minds of many influentil people!

My memories of GI will always be positive, because it was there that God and I became one, as we worked to make the best program possible for teens. The only program to continue when the grant ended was in GI, and that had to do with the favor God gave me with private and public leaders.

From that job, and like some say and I agree, I got paid to do that job, and I shouldn
't have because it was so much fun going to work every day! But from GI, I went on to some major success in the public and private sectors, and I've gained recognition in many places for the work accomplished, but like I've told those giving me awards, I couldn't have done it without Jesus.

Look, have fun where ever you may be, BUT know I pray you be extended journy mercies, and that His favor be upon you keeping you save for all things. You are a brother. And even though we don't see eye to eye, I know our differences don't effect our love and faith in God! I look forward to getting a big hug from you over Jordan! :wavey:

 

[Judith]

I will ask you the same question I have asked another on this thread: Can you present one passage of Scripture that definitively proves, without dispensational spin, a pre-trib rapture of the Church?

No, but I can give you many that leads one to believe such. Let me ask you the same question. Can you present one passage of Scripture that definitively proves there is no pre-trib rapture of the Church.

 

[HankD]

This passage could just as easily apply to the General Resurrection that Jesus Christ promises in John 5:28, 29 or that described by the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15. In fact the wording is very similar to that used by the Apostle in 1 Corinthians 15:51, 52; the trump of God and the last trumpet! There is no there there, nothing that proves a pre-trib removal of the Church. The Apostle is simply comforting the Christians at Thessalonica as he says in verse 13 regarding those Saints already dead.





The Apostle Paul had a dramatic experience with the Lord, why I cannot say!

There are many things of which the scripture is silent.

Was Jesus ever a teenager? Scripture doesn't say.

Did Mary His mother die or was she taken up into heaven like Enoch as the Catholic Church teaches? The scripture is silent about her death and the death of many of the apostles as well.

Matthew 27

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.​

What of these saints? Did they die again or are they still here on earth or did the Lord take them with Him in His ascension? We can only surmise.

Concerning the "last days" in scripture, we are compelled to do two things (at least).

1. Discern between the literal and the metaphor (figures of speech, etc).
2. make a time line composite of the literal.

Jesus spoke of a "Great Tribulation" and many Christians put it right after the "caught up" to be with the Lord passage.

So yes OR, the Thess. passage could "easily" be speaking of a general resurrection but we don't know for sure and I concede that it is possible but so is the pre-trib view (IMO) because the passge is silent about the happenings on earth thereafter. Some folks put 2 Peter 3:10-12 following the "caught up" activity.

In my experience no one has come up with an air tight description of the "end of days" so I look at it as a preferential issue. I suspect many of us will have to eat some crow (except maybe those who say, "I don't know for sure").

Small price.

HankD

 

[OldRegular]

No, but I can give you many that leads one to believe such. Let me ask you the same question. Can you present one passage of Scripture that definitively proves there is no pre-trib rapture of the Church.

I can if you will believe it. The words of Jesus Christ teaching a general resurrection and judgment.

John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

At a certain hour ALL that are in the graves shall hear the voice of God and come forth! That is about as clear as possible.

 

[Judith]

I can if you will believe it. The words of Jesus Christ teaching a general resurrection and judgment.

John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

At a certain hour ALL that are in the graves shall hear the voice of God and come forth! That is about as clear as possible.

That does not disprove a pretribulation rapture. That is talking about saved and lost. 1Thess make sit clear there is a rapture of the saved only. There is a rapture of just the saved so you have not shown any proof of your suggestion.

 

[OldRegular]

There are many things of which the scripture is silent.

Was Jesus ever a teenager? Scripture doesn't say.

Did Mary His mother die or was she taken up into heaven like Enoch as the Catholic Church teaches? The scripture is silent about her death and the death of many of the apostles as well.

Matthew 27

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.​

What of these saints? Did they die again or are they still here on earth or did the Lord take them with Him in His ascension? We can only surmise.

Concerning the "last days" in scripture, we are compelled to do two things (at least).

1. Discern between the literal and the metaphor (figures of speech, etc).
2. make a time line composite of the literal.

Jesus spoke of a "Great Tribulation" and many Christians put it right after the "caught up" to be with the Lord passage.

So yes OR, the Thess. passage could "easily" be speaking of a general resurrection but we don't know for sure and I concede that it is possible but so is the pre-trib view (IMO) because the passge is silent about the happenings on earth thereafter. Some folks put 2 Peter 3:10-12 following the "caught up" activity.

In my experience no one has come up with an air tight description of the "end of days" so I look at it as a preferential issue. I suspect many of us will have to eat some crow (except maybe those who say, "I don't know for sure").

Small price.

HankD

There can be no doubt that John 5:28, 29 teach a general resurrection and judgment!

28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John F. MacArthur in his book Charismatic Chaos [page 94] writes on the interpretation of Scripture by Scripture as follows [emphasis mine.]:

The Reformers used the expression "scriptura scripturam interpretatur", or ‘Scripture interprets Scripture.’ By this they meant that obscure passages in Scripture must be understood in light of clearer ones. If the Bible is God's Word, it must be consistent with itself. No part of the Bible can contradict any other part. One divine Author, the Holy Spirit, inspired the whole Bible, so it has one marvelous, supernatural unity. The synthesis principle puts Scripture together with Scripture to arrive at a clear, consistent meaning. If we hold to an interpretation of one passage that does not square with something in another passage, one of the passages is being interpreted incorrectly, or possibly both of them. The Holy Spirit does not disagree with himself. And the passages with obvious meanings should interpret the more arcane [obscure] ones. One should never build a doctrine on a single obscure or unclear text. When I teach a passage of Scripture, I often guide the congregation to different parts of the Bible to show how the passage under study fits into the total context of Scripture.

Sadly MacArthur does not follow his own advice for John 5:28, 29 clearly teach a general resurrection and judgment.

Continued in next post!

 

[OldRegular]

It is interesting to note that the early Baptist Confessions, written before Darby, teach a general resurrection and judgment. The following information is from a book by William L. Lumpkin, Baptist Confessions of Faith.

Confessions of English Baptists in England

The following Confessions are from Baptists in England. The earliest and most significant confession of the Baptists in England, the London Confession of 1844 does not mention the resurrection and judgment but does affirm the return and triumph of Jesus Christ.

1. The Midland Association Confession [1655]

Article 16 [page 200].

“That at the time appointed of the Lord, the dead bodies of all men, just and unjust shall rise out of their graves, that all may receive according to what they have done in their bodies, be it good or evil.”

2. The Somerset Confession [1656]

Article XL [page 214].

“That there is a day appointed, when the Lord shall raise the unjust as well as the righteous, and judge them all in righteousness, but every man in his own order, taking vengeance on them that know not God, and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, whose punishment will be everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord.”

3. The Standard Confession [1660]

Article XX [page 231].

“That there shall be [through Christ who was dead but is alive again from the dead] a Resurrection of all men from the graves of the earth, both the just and the unjust, that is, the fleshly bodies of men, sown into the graves of the earth, corruptible, dishonourable, weak, natural, [which so considered cannot inherit the Kingdom of God] shall be raised again, incorruptible, in glory, in power, spiritual, and so considered, the bodies of the Saints [united again to their spirits] which here suffer for Christ, shall inherit the Kingdom, reigning together with Christ.”

Article XXI [page 231].

“That there shall be after the Resurrection from the graves of the earth, An eternal Judgment, at the appearing of Christ and His Kingdom, at which time of judgment which is unalterable, and irrevocable, every man shall receive according to the things done in his body.”

4. The Second London Confession [1677][/b]

Chapter XXXI. Of the State of Man after Death and of the Resurrection of the Dead [page 293]

“1. The Bodies of Men after Death return to dust and see corruption; but their souls [which neither die nor sleep] having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them; the Souls of the righteous then being made perfect in holiness, are received into Paradise where they are with Christ, and behold the face of God in light and glory; waiting for the full redemption of their bodies; and the souls of the wicked, are cast into hell; where they remain in torment and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day; besides these two places for Souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledgeth none.

2. At the last day such of the Saints as are found alive shall not sleep but shall be changed; and all the dead shall be raised up with the self same bodies, and none other; although with different qualities, which shall be reunited with their Souls again forever.

3. The bodies of the unjust shall by the power of Christ be raised to dishonour; the bodies of the just by His Spirit unto honour, and be made conformable to His own glorious body.”

Chapter XXXII. Of the Last Judgment [page 294]

“1. God hath appointed a Day wherein He will judge the world in Righteousness, by Jesus Christ; to Whom all power and judgment is given of the Father; in which Day not only the Apostate Angels shall be judged; but likewise all persons that have lived upon the Earth, shall appear before the tribunal of Christ; to give an account of their thoughts, Words, and Deeds, and to receive according to what they have done in the body, whether good or evil.

2. The end of Gods appointing this Day is for the manifestation of the glory of His Mercy, in the Eternal Salvation of the Elect, and of His Justice in the Eternal damnation of the Reprobate who are wicked and disobedient; for then shall the Righteous go into everlasting life, and receive the fullness of Joy, and Glory, with everlasting reward in the presence of the Lord; but the wicked who know not God, and obey not the Gospel of Jesus Christ, shall be cast into Eternal torments, and punished with everlasting destruction, from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power.

As Christ would have us to be certainly persuaded that there shall be a Day of judgment, both to deter all men from sin and for greater consolation of the godly, in their adversity; so will he have that day unknown to Men, that they may shake off all carnal security, and be always watchful, because they know not at what hour, the Lord will come; and may ever be prepared to say, Come Lord Jesus, Come quickly, Amen.”

5. The Orthodox Creed [1679]

Article XLIX. Of the State of man after Death and of the Resurrection of the Dead [page 333]

“The bodies of men after death return to dust and see corruption; but their souls, or spirits, which neither die nor sleep, having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them; the souls of the righteous then being made perfect in holiness, are received into paradise where they are with Christ, and behold the face of God in light and glory; waiting for the full redemption of their bodies; and the souls of the wicked, are cast into hell; where they remain in torment and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day. And besides these two places for souls separated from their bodies, the holy scripture mentions none. At the last day such of the saints as are found alive shall not sleep but be changed; and all the dead shall be raised up with the self same bodies and none other; although with different qualities, which shall be reunited with their souls forever and forever, but the bodies of the unjust shall by the power of Christ, as a severe and just judge, be raised to dishonour; and the bodies of the just and righteous by His Spirit, as He is the head of the catholic Church, unto honour, and be made conformable with His glorious body, and shall enjoy everlasting life; in singing perpetual praises and hallelujahs to God for ever and ever. Amen.”

Article L. Of the last Judgment [page 334]

“And lastly, we believe God hath appointed a day, wherein He will judge the world in righteousness, by Jesus Christ, to Whom all power, and judgment is given of the Father; in which day, not only the Apostate Angels shall be judged; but likewise all persons that have lived upon the Earth, shall appear before the tribunal of Christ; to give an account of their thoughts, words, and deeds, and shall receive a just sentence, according to what they have done in their bodies, whether good or evil, when God according to His purpose, will manifest the glory of His mercy, in the salvation of His elect, and of His justice in the eternal damnation of the wicked and disobedient; for then shall the righteous go into everlasting life, and receive the fullness of joy and glory, but the wicked who know not God, nor obey the gospel offered them in Christ, shall be cast into everlasting torments, and punished with everlasting destruction, from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power. Amen.” [/quote]

 

[OldRegular]

That does not disprove a pretribulation rapture. That is talking about saved and lost. 1Thess make sit clear there is a rapture of the saved only. There is a rapture of just the saved so you have not shown any proof of your suggestion.

It is clear from John 5:28, 29 that there is a general resurrection of all the dead. You correctly state that the passage from Thessalonians speaks of the resurrection of the saved. Therefore it proves absolutely nothing about a pre-trib rapture. Where does Paul state that the resurrection he is talking to the Thessalonians about is pre-trib? No where!