End of Days? What signs do you see?

[HankD]

It is clear from John 5:28, 29 that there is a general resurrection of all the dead. You correctly state that the passage from Thessalonians speaks of the resurrection of the saved. Therefore it proves absolutely nothing about a pre-trib rapture. Where does Paul state that the resurrection he is talking to the Thessalonians about is pre-trib? No where!

He doesn't.
He doesn't say one way or another, he neither affirms nor denies it.

All one can say for sure from this passage is - maybe it does, maybe it doesn't.

IMO.

HankD

 

[OldRegular]

He doesn't.
He doesn't say one way or another, he neither affirms nor denies it.

All one can say for sure from this passage is - maybe it does, maybe it doesn't.

IMO.

HankD

That is not sufficient to establish a doctrine, particularly when it is contradictory to what Jesus Christ is clearly teaching in John 5:28, 29.

 

[HankD]

That is not sufficient to establish a doctrine, particularly when it is contradictory to what Jesus Christ is clearly teaching in John 5:28, 29.

What about the doctrine of the Trinity.

There is not one passage in the Scripture which uses the word "Trinity".

There are several doctrine such as trinitarianism which are developed from a composite of passages, comparing scripture with scripture.


HankD

 

[Grasshopper]

We're talking about the ones that originate under the oceans, not land.:thumbsup:

Which is why I pointed out the correct interpretation is "various", not where divers go.

 

[plain_n_simple]

Israel becoming a nation, increase in earthquakes, church falling away is a big one to me. The church has replaced the supernatural with the worlds remedies for sickness of the mind and body.

 

[OldRegular]

What about the doctrine of the Trinity.

There is not one passage in the Scripture which uses the word "Trinity".

There are several doctrine such as trinitarianism which are developed from a composite of passages, comparing scripture with scripture.


HankD

Yes, but the Doctrine of the Trinity does not conflict with any Scripture, even that passage which states: Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: [Deuteronomy 6:4]

 

[OldRegular]

Which is why I pointed out the correct interpretation is "various", not where divers go.

I say Grasshopper:saint:, that is exceedingly gracious of you!:laugh::laugh: divers indeed!

 

[Iconoclast]

It is interesting to note that the early Baptist Confessions, written before Darby, teach a general resurrection and judgment. The following information is from a book by William L. Lumpkin, Baptist Confessions of Faith.

Confessions of English Baptists in England

The following Confessions are from Baptists in England. The earliest and most significant confession of the Baptists in England, the London Confession of 1844 does not mention the resurrection and judgment but does affirm the return and triumph of Jesus Christ.

1. The Midland Association Confession [1655]

Article 16 [page 200].

“That at the time appointed of the Lord, the dead bodies of all men, just and unjust shall rise out of their graves, that all may receive according to what they have done in their bodies, be it good or evil.”

2. The Somerset Confession [1656]

Article XL [page 214].

“That there is a day appointed, when the Lord shall raise the unjust as well as the righteous, and judge them all in righteousness, but every man in his own order, taking vengeance on them that know not God, and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, whose punishment will be everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord.”

3. The Standard Confession [1660]

Article XX [page 231].

“That there shall be [through Christ who was dead but is alive again from the dead] a Resurrection of all men from the graves of the earth, both the just and the unjust, that is, the fleshly bodies of men, sown into the graves of the earth, corruptible, dishonourable, weak, natural, [which so considered cannot inherit the Kingdom of God] shall be raised again, incorruptible, in glory, in power, spiritual, and so considered, the bodies of the Saints [united again to their spirits] which here suffer for Christ, shall inherit the Kingdom, reigning together with Christ.”

Article XXI [page 231].

“That there shall be after the Resurrection from the graves of the earth, An eternal Judgment, at the appearing of Christ and His Kingdom, at which time of judgment which is unalterable, and irrevocable, every man shall receive according to the things done in his body.”

4. The Second London Confession [1677][/b]

Chapter XXXI. Of the State of Man after Death and of the Resurrection of the Dead [page 293]

“1. The Bodies of Men after Death return to dust and see corruption; but their souls [which neither die nor sleep] having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them; the Souls of the righteous then being made perfect in holiness, are received into Paradise where they are with Christ, and behold the face of God in light and glory; waiting for the full redemption of their bodies; and the souls of the wicked, are cast into hell; where they remain in torment and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day; besides these two places for Souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledgeth none.

2. At the last day such of the Saints as are found alive shall not sleep but shall be changed; and all the dead shall be raised up with the self same bodies, and none other; although with different qualities, which shall be reunited with their Souls again forever.

3. The bodies of the unjust shall by the power of Christ be raised to dishonour; the bodies of the just by His Spirit unto honour, and be made conformable to His own glorious body.”

Chapter XXXII. Of the Last Judgment [page 294]

“1. God hath appointed a Day wherein He will judge the world in Righteousness, by Jesus Christ; to Whom all power and judgment is given of the Father; in which Day not only the Apostate Angels shall be judged; but likewise all persons that have lived upon the Earth, shall appear before the tribunal of Christ; to give an account of their thoughts, Words, and Deeds, and to receive according to what they have done in the body, whether good or evil.

2. The end of Gods appointing this Day is for the manifestation of the glory of His Mercy, in the Eternal Salvation of the Elect, and of His Justice in the Eternal damnation of the Reprobate who are wicked and disobedient; for then shall the Righteous go into everlasting life, and receive the fullness of Joy, and Glory, with everlasting reward in the presence of the Lord; but the wicked who know not God, and obey not the Gospel of Jesus Christ, shall be cast into Eternal torments, and punished with everlasting destruction, from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power.

As Christ would have us to be certainly persuaded that there shall be a Day of judgment, both to deter all men from sin and for greater consolation of the godly, in their adversity; so will he have that day unknown to Men, that they may shake off all carnal security, and be always watchful, because they know not at what hour, the Lord will come; and may ever be prepared to say, Come Lord Jesus, Come quickly, Amen.”

5. The Orthodox Creed [1679]

Article XLIX. Of the State of man after Death and of the Resurrection of the Dead [page 333]

“The bodies of men after death return to dust and see corruption; but their souls, or spirits, which neither die nor sleep, having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them; the souls of the righteous then being made perfect in holiness, are received into paradise where they are with Christ, and behold the face of God in light and glory; waiting for the full redemption of their bodies; and the souls of the wicked, are cast into hell; where they remain in torment and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day. And besides these two places for souls separated from their bodies, the holy scripture mentions none. At the last day such of the saints as are found alive shall not sleep but be changed; and all the dead shall be raised up with the self same bodies and none other; although with different qualities, which shall be reunited with their souls forever and forever, but the bodies of the unjust shall by the power of Christ, as a severe and just judge, be raised to dishonour; and the bodies of the just and righteous by His Spirit, as He is the head of the catholic Church, unto honour, and be made conformable with His glorious body, and shall enjoy everlasting life; in singing perpetual praises and hallelujahs to God for ever and ever. Amen.”

Article L. Of the last Judgment [page 334]

“And lastly, we believe God hath appointed a day, wherein He will judge the world in righteousness, by Jesus Christ, to Whom all power, and judgment is given of the Father; in which day, not only the Apostate Angels shall be judged; but likewise all persons that have lived upon the Earth, shall appear before the tribunal of Christ; to give an account of their thoughts, words, and deeds, and shall receive a just sentence, according to what they have done in their bodies, whether good or evil, when God according to His purpose, will manifest the glory of His mercy, in the salvation of His elect, and of His justice in the eternal damnation of the wicked and disobedient; for then shall the righteous go into everlasting life, and receive the fullness of joy and glory, but the wicked who know not God, nor obey the gospel offered them in Christ, shall be cast into everlasting torments, and punished with everlasting destruction, from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power. Amen.”

[/QUOTE]


Yes..they believed it was the last day as described in jn 6

 

[HankD]

Yes, but the Doctrine of the Trinity does not conflict with any Scripture, even that passage which states: Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: [Deuteronomy 6:4]

Don't get me wrong OR, my thought is that all of eschatology is difficult and of my own view the overall details concerning the Day of The Lord is one of preference and not of total conviction.

Well one total conviction I have however is that Jesus shall return bodily to the earth when the time is right.

Other matters of doctrine that are not found in scripture - e.g. The canon of Scripture, no where in the scripture itself does there exist a list of the inspired books of the bible. How then do we know there aren't others - or one or some are not authentic? Faith in God of course and His church - it took centuries to develope the doctrine of the Trinity and define the Canon of Scripture.

The first edition KJV contained the Apocrypha and included parts of the apocryphal books in the list of Daily Scripture Readings. These were romish grave clothes.

Because a doctrine needs to be devloped out of a composite procedure over time doesn't negate its validity.

So, I don't accept the premise that a pre-trib rapture violates scripture.

A pretrib rapture is my present preference (It wasn't always and it may change).

On the other hand I concede that I may be wrong and you may be right (or we could both be wrong).

I think we are going to find out soon enough.

HankD

 

[OldRegular]

Hank

First and foremost when it comes to Eschatology I believe in the visible return of the Lord Jesus Christ in power and great glory, the resurrection of the dead, the White Throne Judgment, and the New Heavens and New Earth where the redeemed will dwell in the presence of God.

I believe that John 5:28, 29 rules out the pre-trib rapture but I cannot be too dogmatic about eschatology, only God can.

The major problems I have with dispensational doctrine are the concept of the "parenthesis" Church and the teaching that God has two distinct peoples; an earthly people, Israel, and a heavenly people, the Church. It seems to me that any reading of Scripture and certainly the last three chapters of Revelation rule out the idea of two different peoples of God. The doctrine of the "parenthesis" Church is put to rest by John 17:4. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

 

[HankD]

Hank

First and foremost when it comes to Eschatology I believe in the visible return of the Lord Jesus Christ in power and great glory, the resurrection of the dead, the White Throne Judgment, and the New Heavens and New Earth where the redeemed will dwell in the presence of God.

I believe that John 5:28, 29 rules out the pre-trib rapture but I cannot be too dogmatic about eschatology, only God can.

The major problems I have with dispensational doctrine are the concept of the "parenthesis" Church and the teaching that God has two distinct peoples; an earthly people, Israel, and a heavenly people, the Church. It seems to me that any reading of Scripture and certainly the last three chapters of Revelation rule out the idea of two different peoples of God. The doctrine of the "parenthesis" Church is put to rest by John 17:4. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

We are more in agreement than disagreement OR.

I agree with you and disagree with the Scofield notion of the two peoples, however that one people are of mixed race and nationality.
There is only one people of God, however some are from the physical loins of Abraham and some from the gentiles.
In Revelation as you mentioned there will be one people, notice that both Israel and the church are referred to by the 12 Gates (Tribes of Israel) and the 12 foundations (12 Apostles).

Distinct is different than separate. In the New Jerusalem we are one, no wall of division.

HankD

 

[OldRegular]

We are more in agreement than disagreement OR.

I agree with you and disagree with the Scofield notion of the two peoples, however that one people are of mixed race and nationality.
There is only one people of God, however some are from the physical loins of Abraham and some from the gentiles.
In Revelation as you mentioned there will be one people, notice that both Israel and the church are referred to by the 12 Gates (Tribes of Israel) and the 12 foundations (12 Apostles).

Distinct is different than separate. In the New Jerusalem we are one, no wall of division.

HankD

Well said Hank! I have always found the description of the Bride of the Lamb, the great city, holy Jerusalem in Revelation 21 to be absolutely fascinating. The naming of the gates as the 12 tribes and the foundations as the 12 Apostles is, to me, convincing proof that God has only one people.

 

[HankD]

Well said Hank! I have always found the description of the Bride of the Lamb, the great city, holy Jerusalem in Revelation 21 to be absolutely fascinating. The naming of the gates as the 12 tribes and the foundations as the 12 Apostles is, to me, convincing proof that God has only one people.

Indeed:

Ephesians 2
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;


HankD