end time article

[webdog]

Now THAT is something we can encourage one another with...not that we will be martyred by having our heads sawed off by a radical muslim under orders of the antichrist!

 

[revmwc]

Now THAT is something we can encourage one another with...not that we will be martyred by having our heads sawed off by a radical muslim under orders of the antichrist!

What is something we can encourage each other with the Promise from Christ not to go through the hour (time, age) of Testing (tribulation)?

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconclast;
From American vision;
　
Guess what the unicorn existed other wise they would not have been mentioned in scripture. Num23:22,-24:8, Job 39:9-10,Ps 26:6, 92:10 That of course as you no doubt agree makes it mythical.
What great minds they have to deny scripture. In effect God’s word lies according to these great men of vision.:laugh:
MB

Hey MB...
I did not know you were the resident unicornologist....here is some more info for you.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicorn

from the article;
The unicorn is a legendary animal commonly portrayed as a white horse with a goat's beard and a large, pointed, spiraling horn projecting from its forehead. First mentioned by the ancient Greeks, it became the most important imaginary animal of the middle ages and Renaissance when it was commonly described as an extremely wild woodland creature, a symbol of purity and grace, which could only be captured by a virgin. In the encyclopedias its horn was said to have the power to render poisoned water potable and to heal sickness. Until the 19th century, belief in unicorns was widespread among historians, alchemists, writers, poets, naturalists, physicians, and theologians.

An animal called the re’em (Hebrew: רְאֵם‎) is mentioned in several places in the Hebrew Bible, often as a metaphor representing strength. "The allusions to the re'em as a wild, un-tamable animal of great strength and agility, with mighty horn or horns (Job xxxix. 9–12; Ps. xxii. 21, xxix. 6; Num. xxiii. 22, xxiv. 8; Deut. xxxiii. 17; comp. Ps. xcii. 11), best fit the aurochs (Bos primigenius). This view is supported by the Assyrian rimu, which is often used as a metaphor of strength, and is depicted as a powerful, fierce, wild mountain bull with large horns."[13] This animal was often depicted in ancient Mesopotamian art in profile, with only one horn visible.

The translators of the Authorized King James Version of the Bible (1611) followed the Greek Septuagint (monokeros) and the Latin Vulgate (unicornis)[14] and employed unicorn to translate re'em, providing a recognizable animal that was proverbial for its un-tamable nature. The American Standard Version translates this term "wild ox" in each case.
"God brought them out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn."—Numbers 23:22
"God brought him forth out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn."—Numbers 24:8
"His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth."—Deuteronomy 33:17
"Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib? Canst thou bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow? or will he harrow the valleys after thee? Wilt thou trust him, because his strength is great? or wilt thou leave thy labour to him? Wilt thou believe him, that he will bring home thy seed, and gather it into thy barn?"—Job 39:9–12
"Save me from the lion's mouth; for thou hast heard me from the horns of unicorns."—Psalms 22:21
"He maketh them [the cedars of Lebanon] also to skip like a calf; Lebanon and Sirion like a young unicorn."—Psalms 29:6
"But my horn shalt thou exalt like the horn of the unicorn: I shall be anointed with fresh oil."—Psalms 92:10
"And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with their bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness."—Isaiah 34:7

The classical Jewish understanding of bible did not identify the Re'em animal as the unicorn. Instead, the Tahash animal (Exodus 25, 26, 35, 36 and 39; Numbers 4; and Ezekiel 16:10) was thought to be a kosher unicorn with a coat of many colors that only existed in biblical times.


Hope this does not cause you to lose sleep MB:wavey:

Hey....maybe the "little horn" of Daniel who takes over the ten nation conspiracy will be part man, and part unicorn.....

 

[Martin Marprelate]

If Hosea 6:7 teaches that Gen 2:15-17 is a covenant of salvation by works then what happend to the missing verses that teach this covenant of works? Show me where in the Bible Jehovah said to Adam, you do this, you perform this task and I will do something, such as I will give you eternal life. It just simply isn't there.

Here's something I wrote on my blog a while ago.

What is a covenant? The Hebrew word used in the Old Testament is Bara, which comes from a root word meaning ‘bonds’ or ‘yokes.’ The idea is of two parties binding themselves to perform some mutually agreed action. The Greek word is diatheke, which means a ‘disposition’ or ‘arrangement.’ The puritan John Owen defined a covenant as, ‘A voluntary convention, pact, agreement between distinct persons about the ordering and dispensing of things in their power, to their mutual concern or advantage.’ A simpler definition might be, ‘A mutual agreement, a benefit being assured on the fulfilment of certain conditions.’

‘Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die “’(Gen 2:15-17 ). The covenant comes in the form of a provision, a command and a warning, but a gracious promise is implied- eternal life; ‘if you don’t the forbidden fruit, you shall live.’ Adam was put into the position of a tenant moving into a house. The landlord might tell him, “You can live here rent-free in return for doing the garden; you can eat all the stuff that grows in the garden, but don’t touch the vintage claret in the cellar or you’re out!”

This arrangement has all the attributes of a covenant. The greater party (God) gives to the lesser party (Adam) a perfect environment, ample provisions and eternal life. The lesser party agrees to oversee and to care for the environment, and to obey the rules laid down for him. A breach of these rules is a breach of the covenant and must lead to the forfeiture of its benefits. The covenant might be better termed the ‘Covenant of Obedience’ since it was obedience rather than works which were required, but it has been called the Covenant of Works to distinguish it from the Covenant of Grace which we can look at later on.

It might be supposed that Adam had no other law to obey save the single one of not eating from the forbidden tree, but that would be a simplistic view. Adam was under the Moral Law of God, the Ten Commandments, as a moment’s thought will confirm. Suppose Adam built an idol in the garden to worship, or suppose he strangled Eve! Would God have said, “Of that’s alright, Adam, just as long as you don’t eat the fruit!” The very thought is absurd. It is true that Adam could not have coveted his neighbour’s ox or his ass since he had no neighbours, but he certainly coveted that which God had denied to him and stole it to his own inestimable loss and that of his posterity. ‘Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned’ (Romans 5:12 ).

There is no doubt but that the Covenant of Works was a gracious covenant. God was under no obligation to do anything for Adam, yet He gave him a wife, placed him in a beautiful garden with only light tasks to perform (there were no weeds before the Fall- Gen 3:17-18 ) and gave him dominion over all the rest of creation. However, there is no mention of mercy in the covenant. Adam is warned, “In the day you eat of it, you shall surely die.” To put it another way, “Do this and live.” Adam’s privileges were dependant on his obedience. Yet he was well able to perform this obedience. God had made him entirely righteous; otherwise He could not have pronounced the whole of creation ‘very good’ (Gen 1:31 ).

Adam was a public person or a Covenant head. In the Covenant of Works, he transacted not only for himself and Eve, but also for his seed and his doom was also theirs. ‘For as in Adam, all die…..’ (1Cor 15:22 ). His sin is imputed to his progeny. ‘For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners…….’ (Rom 5:19 ). The idea of a Covenant or representative head is not as strange as one might think. The head of a business makes deals and transactions on behalf of the whole corporation. A politician signs treaties that are binding upon the whole population of the country. If the Prime Minister of Great Britain were to declare war upon France, all Britons would be at war whether we approved of it or not, and if we were to meet a Frenchman with a gun, he might well feel justified in shooting us!

So it is that mankind can be described as having a bad record and a bad reputation. Not only are we constituted sinners by our covenant association with Adam, but we are sinners in our own selves. We have inherited Adam’s fallen nature. ‘And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth’ (Gen 5:3 ). Whereas Adam had been created in the image of the perfect and holy God, each of us is born with the sinful nature of fallen Adam. ‘That which is born of the flesh is flesh’ (John 3:6 ). ‘Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned’ (Romans 5:12 ). The state of fallen man is desperate, and entirely our own fault. Adam sinned deliberately and so do we. We cannot plead that God’s judgements are unfair and that we should not be blamed for his iniquity. Adam sinned once and fell; fallen man sins many times a day (Rom 3:10-18 ).

Mankind has therefore utterly forfeited and lost all covenant interest in God. He can no longer claim a right in or hope of the promise of eternal life held out in the covenant. At once, he fell under guilt, which was the sentence of his own conscience, seeing himself under the just wrath of God and therefore dreading His approach (Gen 3:8-10 ). We are by nature like cockroaches that scuttle into a dark corner when the light is switched on (John 3:19 ). Unredeemed mankind has entirely lost its relationship with God. He is incapable of true happiness because he is at enmity with God and alienated from Him. As we have observed, the image of God in him is now wholly defaced. Where first there was the beauty of original righteousness, now there is only filthiness and deformity (Titus 3:3; Psalm 14:1-3 ).

The curse of the covenant is now in effect; man is subject to fear of death and fear of judgement and hell. He has become a debtor instead of a free man. He owes a debt of obedience that he is by no means able to settle- he has sinned infinitely against the infinite love of God and therefore owes infinitely more than he can pay. The curse is also extended to creation. The world has fallen with fallen man; it is God’s righteous judgement that sinful humans shall not live in a perfect world. “Cursed is the ground for your sake; in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life” (Gen 3:17. cf. Rom 8:20 ). Man is helpless and without strength in a harsh environment, unable to bring himself before God on a covenant of works and equally unable to bring himself on any other terms. There was no arrangement in the covenant for a second chance. Man is unable to move even one step towards reconciliation with God. The door of repentance was not opened by the Covenant of Works, and even if it had been, there would have been neither the power nor the inclination to enter it.

And yet……….

‘For when we were still without strength, Christ died for the ungodly’ (Rom 5:6 ).

O loving wisdom of our God!
When all was sin and shame,
A second Adam to the fight
And to the rescue came.


More on covenants here:- http://marprelate.wordpress.com/category/covenants/

Steve

 

[MB]

Hey MB...
I did not know you were the resident unicornologist....here is some more info for you.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicorn

from the article;
The unicorn is a legendary animal commonly portrayed as a white horse with a goat's beard and a large, pointed, spiraling horn projecting from its forehead. First mentioned by the ancient Greeks, it became the most important imaginary animal of the middle ages and Renaissance when it was commonly described as an extremely wild woodland creature, a symbol of purity and grace, which could only be captured by a virgin. In the encyclopedias its horn was said to have the power to render poisoned water potable and to heal sickness. Until the 19th century, belief in unicorns was widespread among historians, alchemists, writers, poets, naturalists, physicians, and theologians.

An animal called the re’em (Hebrew: רְאֵם‎) is mentioned in several places in the Hebrew Bible, often as a metaphor representing strength. "The allusions to the re'em as a wild, un-tamable animal of great strength and agility, with mighty horn or horns (Job xxxix. 9–12; Ps. xxii. 21, xxix. 6; Num. xxiii. 22, xxiv. 8; Deut. xxxiii. 17; comp. Ps. xcii. 11), best fit the aurochs (Bos primigenius). This view is supported by the Assyrian rimu, which is often used as a metaphor of strength, and is depicted as a powerful, fierce, wild mountain bull with large horns."[13] This animal was often depicted in ancient Mesopotamian art in profile, with only one horn visible.

The translators of the Authorized King James Version of the Bible (1611) followed the Greek Septuagint (monokeros) and the Latin Vulgate (unicornis)[14] and employed unicorn to translate re'em, providing a recognizable animal that was proverbial for its un-tamable nature. The American Standard Version translates this term "wild ox" in each case.
"God brought them out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn."—Numbers 23:22
"God brought him forth out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn."—Numbers 24:8
"His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth."—Deuteronomy 33:17
"Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib? Canst thou bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow? or will he harrow the valleys after thee? Wilt thou trust him, because his strength is great? or wilt thou leave thy labour to him? Wilt thou believe him, that he will bring home thy seed, and gather it into thy barn?"—Job 39:9–12
"Save me from the lion's mouth; for thou hast heard me from the horns of unicorns."—Psalms 22:21
"He maketh them [the cedars of Lebanon] also to skip like a calf; Lebanon and Sirion like a young unicorn."—Psalms 29:6
"But my horn shalt thou exalt like the horn of the unicorn: I shall be anointed with fresh oil."—Psalms 92:10
"And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with their bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness."—Isaiah 34:7

The classical Jewish understanding of bible did not identify the Re'em animal as the unicorn. Instead, the Tahash animal (Exodus 25, 26, 35, 36 and 39; Numbers 4; and Ezekiel 16:10) was thought to be a kosher unicorn with a coat of many colors that only existed in biblical times.


Hope this does not cause you to lose sleep MB:wavey:

Hey....maybe the "little horn" of Daniel who takes over the ten nation conspiracy will be part man, and part unicorn.....

You have proven your self to believe in man more than God.
MB

 

[thomas15]

Here's something I wrote on my blog a while ago.....

Steve

Steve,

Are you thinking that if I read just one more explanation from the covenant crowd on what they believe that it will take me over the top and make me true believer or am I just being cynical?

 

[J.D.]

I read something recently that postulated that the Adamic/Edenic covenant was not a covenant of works but was a gracious covenent with law requirements, just like the Mosaic Covenant. I think it makes a lot of sense. I will post the reference if I can find it.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Steve,

Are you thinking that if I read just one more explanation from the covenant crowd on what they believe that it will take me over the top and make me true believer or am I just being cynical?

You're just being cynical. You were asking for someone to post the Biblical case for covenants, so I have done so. You don't have to like it, agree with it, or reply to it. You asked for it and you got it, that's all. :smilewinkgrin:

Steve

 

[thomas15]

You're just being cynical. You were asking for someone to post the Biblical case for covenants, so I have done so. You don't have to like it, agree with it, or reply to it. You asked for it and you got it, that's all. :smilewinkgrin:

Steve

Well thank you Steve for your ground breaking scholarship in this area of academic study. Theologians have been trying for centuries to acomplish what you have achieved, concise, clear and able to remove all doubts as to the covenant Jehovah cut with Adam in Gen 2:15-17 kudos to you Sir! I was blind but now I see!

The only question that remains in my mind is why are you giving this information away for free when a gifted expositor such as yourself should be paid for your labors?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The only question that remains in my mind is why are you giving this information away for free when a gifted expositor such as yourself should be paid for your labors?

I have often wondered about this. Put it down to my amazing kindness and good nature. However, since you requested the information, on reflection I think it is only fair that you should pay for it. A cheque for $50 will be acceptable.

:tongue3:

Steve

 

[revmwc]

What was Gods covenant with Adam? *

Genesis 3: 21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:


Genesis 4: 3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.


It apparently had to do with offering a blood sacrifice for a sin offering. God would not accept the works of mans hand in Cains offering, but Abels he accepted being from the flock, a lamb probably. God made the first sacrifice to clothe Adam and Eve but apparently from Genesis 4 blood sacrifices from the flock were required, in the process of time. So in the age of Conscience God istituted the offeering of Blood sacrifices for acceptance by Him, thus the covenant with Adam was a Covenant of acceptance by Sacrifice not of works but by blood. We aren't given all the details but Cain needed only to offer a blood sacrifice and God would have accepted him notice verse 7 if thou doest well in other words if you offer a blood sacrifice you will be accepted. Cain refused and the first murder occured when Cain chose to reject God's plan.

 

[JesusFan]

I did discuss it with the pastor. At length.

He knocked down all of my proof texts by two methods. One, by re-asking the question: "where does this passage say the rapture is pre-trib?"

Two, by providing an alternate interpretation.

many here would hold to a post trib rapture, even though I hold to it being pre trip, think that one holding to a Rapture and Jesus returning physically, setting up a literally Millinium Kingdom upon earth still would be a Dispy!

 

[thomas15]

I have often wondered about this. Put it down to my amazing kindness and good nature. However, since you requested the information, on reflection I think it is only fair that you should pay for it. A cheque for $50 will be acceptable.

:tongue3:

Steve

I know that you have to eat and maintain shelter and all but will you accept $100.00 U.S. funds?

Seriously though, the Phillippian Jailer asked Paul the 64 thousand pound question: "Sir, what must I do to be saved?" According to reformed covenant dogma, Adam in his pre-fall condition would be looking for an answer something like this: Do this (.........) and thou shall be saved. From the Bible, what specific work goes in the blank (.......).

My question goes to the creator/creation relationship. If a covenant of works were even possible, how could the created Adam achieve it without being the creator himself? If Jehovah is the creator of all things, would not a covenant of works, if one existed, be by the grace of God?

I see that there is a willingness to conceed this point here somewhat but I can pull out any number of authoritative systematic theology works from famous reformed writers that argue for a pre-fall covenant of works. I can also find in some modern works by reformed thinkers where as a necessary part of their debate, they must fall back to the position that their position is that of the reformers and the creeds. It is not too dificult to find reformed writers who state that dispys teach 2 ways of salvation. Those writings, I refer to those of the reformers and the creeds, while nice are not the Word of God, they are not inspired and they are not the final authority.

But that's just little olde me speaking.

 

[JesusFan]

Thanks for the explanation. I had noticed in reading years ago the connection between dispensationalism and the covenants. I read J. Dwight Pentecost's book Things to Come, which fleshed out that view pretty thoroughly.

I didn't plug in the covenant stuff to arrive at my Historical Pre-Mil position. So you're suggesting that if I'm Reformed (as in Calvinist), my view is inconsistent? In other words, if I believe A, I have to believe B?

I can see the argument. And I do know a couple of DoGs who are A-Mil and they're pretty smart. I have read a lot about A-Mil, I'm just not there yet.

Normally reformed Christians take "entire system" of calvinism, so they see Sotierology/eschatology etc as being essentially same basis...
hence are A Mil many of them, and hold to a Covenant theology

other hand, many baptists hold to being Calvinist in sotierology, but still Dispy regarding eschatology

You sound like one who would be close to say a John macarther in his theology, not a bad place to be!

 

[revmwc]

I know that you have to eat and maintain shelter and all but will you accept $100.00 U.S. funds?

Seriously though, the Phillippian Jailer asked Paul the 64 thousand pound question: "Sir, what must I do to be saved?" According to reformed covenant dogma, Adam in his pre-fall condition would be looking for an answer something like this: Do this (.........) and thou shall be saved. From the Bible, what specific work goes in the blank (.......).

My question goes to the creator/creation relationship. If a covenant of works were even possible, how could the created Adam achieve it without being the creator himself? If Jehovah is the creator of all things, would not a covenant of works, if one existed, be by the grace of God?

I see that there is a willingness to conceed this point here somewhat but I can pull out any number of authoritative systematic theology works from famous reformed writers that argue for a pre-fall covenant of works. I can also find in some modern works by reformed thinkers where as a necessary part of their debate, they must fall back to the position that their position is that of the reformers and the creeds. It is not too dificult to find reformed writers who state that dispys teach 2 ways of salvation. Those writings, I refer to those of the reformers and the creeds, while nice are not the Word of God, they are not inspired and they are not the final authority.

But that's just little olde me speaking.

The Pre-Fall Adam had one command obey and live eternally, disobey and death comes. After the fall God promised a redeemer who would crush the head of satan (the serpant) and become the Saviour, that was God's promise, it was believe a saviour is coming. They offered sacrifices of the flock for a covering just as the Jews did.

 

[JesusFan]

If there is/was a covenant of works between Adam and God resulting in personal salvation, the Bible is silent about it. Just because you want Gen 2:15-17 to teach said covenant doesn't make it so.

What we know about God's relationship with Adam is recorded in the Bible, nowhere else. The Bible doesn't teach what you want it to teach. Sorry if that offends.

So, I guess you are going to resort to the *tom solution?

is the answer though as simple as 'they did not even need a covenant regarding Salvation" before the fall, as they were both sinless and still in perfect relationship with God?

That God established His relationship with the, period?

 

[JesusFan]

I agree, it's above my pay grade too.

The point I don't understand about the post mil (and even the "pre wrath" view) is the church going through the great tribulation. This is a period of God's wrath against a world who has rejected His Son. Why would a believer be subject to such wrath? Oh, I have heard the persecution point of view, but this is beyond persecution...this IS God's wrath being poured out (bowl, scroll judgements). If we are in Christ, His wrath has been appeased against us!
Jesus gave us the example of Noah and Sodom. Did God's wrath abide against the righteous in both of those situations?

Also, Paul tells us to encourage one another in 1 Thess. What encouragement or blessed hope is there in knowing we will be subjected to God's wrath? What is the point of God's wrath against a believer?

We can dissect each and every passage of Scripture, but they have to be viewed through Scripture as a whole, and I don't see God's wrath being poured out against the righteous anywhere in Scripture. That was the point of the cross.

They err in thinking that somehow the Church "has" to go thru and endure Great tribulation in order to have it become a "purified/spotess" bride for Christ at His return...

Not realising that the Bride IS already spotless and pure by being covered "in the Blood of the lamb"

To me, 2 primary agends God will have in last days, during tribulation will be:

To judge all kingdoms of earth, man system of economics/politics/religion etc. they will be judged gulity as befoe Holy God, and all of our human systems destroyed in order to prepare earth for the Coming Messiah and Gods Kingdom setting up on earth
Also

Giod will turning the peoples of Isreal back to Himself, preparing them for the imminent Coming of their Messiah jesus Christ!

 

[thomas15]

The Pre-Fall Adam had one command obey and live eternally, disobey and death comes. After the fall God promised a redeemer who would crush the head of satan (the serpant) and become the Saviour, that was God's promise, it was believe a saviour is coming. They offered sacrifices of the flock for a covering just as the Jews did.

OK, fair enough, but are you advocating eternal life through a covenant of works?

 

[revmwc]

OK, fair enough, but are you advocating eternal life through a covenant of works?

Not at all it is the same eternal life we have obey and have life, disobey and have death. Adam and Eve disobeyed and sin and death entered the world, God sacrificed an animal to cover them both lterally and for their sin with the blood. If you notice Gen 4 we see yet another illustration that it was by the means of a Blood sacrifice that God approved Abel and cain brought works and was rejected. God told him to come with a blood sacrifice and Cain refused, some might argue he did bring blood the blood of his brother but God wanted of the firstlings of the flock not his brother.
Works was rejected in the beginning just as it is rejected today. Blood sacrifice has always been required to cover man's sin and Jesus blood removed the sin issue and made it a Son issue. Adam and Eve had only one command from God which did not involve works, Obey and have eternal life disobey and death will come. They chose the latter and death came into the world by sin.

 

[Tom Butler]

many here would hold to a post trib rapture, even though I hold to it being pre trip, think that one holding to a Rapture and Jesus returning physically, setting up a literally Millinium Kingdom upon earth still would be a Dispy!

The Pre-Mils divide themselves this way:\
Dispensational Pre-Mils hold to a pre-trib rapture, Tribulation, Second Coming, Defeat and binding of Satan, and 1000-year earthly reign.

Historical Pre-mils believe there's only one coming, post-tribulation. No rapture, since believers are caught up to meet him as he continues to earth, defeats the forces of Satan and sets up his millennial kingdom.

Post-Tribs don't fit the definition of Dispy.