end time article

[Allan]

The Pre-Mils divide themselves this way:\
Dispensational Pre-Mils hold to a pre-trib rapture, Tribulation, Second Coming, Defeat and binding of Satan, and 1000-year earthly reign.

Historical Pre-mils believe there's only one coming, post-tribulation. No rapture, since believers are caught up to meet him as he continues to earth, defeats the forces of Satan and sets up his millennial kingdom.

Post-Tribs don't fit the definition of Dispy.

Tom, you contradicted yourself in the above with - no rapture.. then.. believers are 'caught up' (the Latin for this phrase in English is Rapture).
Histroric Pre-mills DO hold to a rapture and it is as you stated the rapture takes places (caught up) when Christ comes back.. they go to meet him in the air, and return WITH Him. Historic Pre-mil's are post-trib rapture, always have been.

From Theopedia on Premillennialism.

By contrast, historic premillennialists would be generally categorized as "Post-tribulationists" because they see no appreciable difference in the timing of the rapture and the "official" second coming. Thus they hold that Christ will not return until the end of the Great tribulation and that Christians will suffer for the faith as they bring forth the final witness associated with the 5th seal of the book of Revelation.

However it is of specific note that being Pre-mill does not necessitate being Dispensational. However Dispensationalism is defined most accurately by John MacArthur and Ryrie in that there is a distinction regarding Israel and Church. Remember that Historic Pre-mill in the early was not fully developed as a system but it is upon that system that current Dispensationalism is based because it DID see the church and Israel as being distinct in the Millennium. Take John MacArthur, he is historic Pre-mill (post-trib rapture) and is dispensational based upon historical data. Some want to call him a leaky dispensationalist but he, being an Historical Pre-mill (post-trib) makes a firm statement here on his website when asked about it.

 

[webdog]

I was always under the impression MacArthur was pre-trib

 

[Allan]

I was always under the impression MacArthur was pre-trib

He was in the beginning (way back when), but is Historic Pre-mill meaning Dispensational post-trib rapture.

 

[revmwc]

He was in the beginning (way back when), but is Historic Pre-mill meaning Dispensational post-trib rapture.

From an article in Grace to you:

http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/41-67_The-Future-Tribulation?q=tribulation

The Future Tribulation
Mark 13:14-23 March 27, 2011 | Code: 41-67


"Now you can go back to Mark 13. That is a glimpse of the time of Tribulation and its escalating terrors and horrors. You say, “Will we be there?” I have good news for you. I think the New Testament teaches the church will be raptured before that time. That we’ll be kept from that wrath, that we’ll be taken out. But once we’re out and that breaks loose, at the same time the gospel will be preached. It will be preached by 144 thousand Jews, twelve thousand from every tribe, according to Revelation 7. It will be preached by two powerful witnesses according to Revelation 11. It will be preached by an angel flying in the sky with the everlasting gospel. So powerful will the gospel be that there will be people saved out of every tongue, tribe, people and nation who will come out of that period. Israel will be saved. Two thirds of the Jews will be judged for unbelief, one third will be saved. There will be the greatest revival in any short period of time in human history."

McArthur is PRE-TRIB and PRE-MIL according to this article.
Yes for all those that want to complain it is a cut and paste. I gave you the website and the message number so you go find the part I copied and pasted it is deep in the article.

 

[JesusFan]

The Pre-Mils divide themselves this way:\
Dispensational Pre-Mils hold to a pre-trib rapture, Tribulation, Second Coming, Defeat and binding of Satan, and 1000-year earthly reign.

Historical Pre-mils believe there's only one coming, post-tribulation. No rapture, since believers are caught up to meet him as he continues to earth, defeats the forces of Satan and sets up his millennial kingdom.

Post-Tribs don't fit the definition of Dispy.

What would allow you to still remain in the Dispy Camp and NOT be in the Covenent Theology camp is IF you still held that God has distinctive seperate plans for isreal and the Church, that both groups ares till in plan of God, that the Church did NOT replace isreal in god program, and that there will be a litewrally Second Coming to earth, and jesus will then set up a 1000 yr Kingdom upon earth!

IF you still hold to that, even IF post trib, welcome to Dispy land!

 

[Allan]

From an article in Grace to you:

http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/41-67_The-Future-Tribulation?q=tribulation

The Future Tribulation
Mark 13:14-23 March 27, 2011 | Code: 41-67


"Now you can go back to Mark 13. That is a glimpse of the time of Tribulation and its escalating terrors and horrors. You say, “Will we be there?” I have good news for you. I think the New Testament teaches the church will be raptured before that time. That we’ll be kept from that wrath, that we’ll be taken out. But once we’re out and that breaks loose, at the same time the gospel will be preached. It will be preached by 144 thousand Jews, twelve thousand from every tribe, according to Revelation 7. It will be preached by two powerful witnesses according to Revelation 11. It will be preached by an angel flying in the sky with the everlasting gospel. So powerful will the gospel be that there will be people saved out of every tongue, tribe, people and nation who will come out of that period. Israel will be saved. Two thirds of the Jews will be judged for unbelief, one third will be saved. There will be the greatest revival in any short period of time in human history."

McArthur is PRE-TRIB and PRE-MIL according to this article.
Yes for all those that want to complain it is a cut and paste. I gave you the website and the message number so you go find the part I copied and pasted it is deep in the article.

You're correct in that.. I have heard it stated by other reformed brothers he is historic Premil, and 'assumed' the standard position of post-trib.

I checked out his website and it to states he is pre-trib and give no indication that he is historic premil that I can find... however now that I know that.. I wish to look closer at his arguments FOR pretrib as well as a more indepth look to see if he IS Historic Premill. From what I have heard I have always held almost identical to his eschatology, but never examined it to closely.

 

[Tom Butler]

Allan, thank you for catching my imprecision with regard to the rapture. I did not do too well in drawing a distinction between the pre-trib rapture, and the post-trib catching away.

Pre-tribbers hold that the catching away is to take believers to heaven, to return with Christ at the end of the Tribulation. Post-tribbers hold the believers will go through the Tribulation, to be caught up when Jesus returns, and accompany him to earth.

An analogy I like is this: Your family arrives for a visit. You go out the door, greet them in the driveway, and come back into the house with them.

I think I was trying to avoid the use post-trib rapture, so as not to confuse. So, instead, I contradicted.

Re: MacArthur, I'm like webdog; If he's historic pre-mil, it's news to me.

 

[Tom Butler]

What would allow you to still remain in the Dispy Camp and NOT be in the Covenent Theology camp is IF you still held that God has distinctive seperate plans for isreal and the Church, that both groups ares till in plan of God, that the Church did NOT replace isreal in god program, and that there will be a litewrally Second Coming to earth, and jesus will then set up a 1000 yr Kingdom upon earth!

IF you still hold to that, even IF post trib, welcome to Dispy land!

I'm feeling my way here.

Is it possible to be neither Dispy nor Covenant? I don't think I'm either one.

If that's inconsistent then just relabel me Historic Pre-Weird.

 

[JesusFan]

I'm feeling my way here.

Is it possible to be neither Dispy nor Covenant? I don't think I'm either one.

If that's inconsistent then just relabel me Historic Pre-Weird.

pretty simple test for this...

Do you feel that God has made the Church "Isreal" for today, that all of his OT promises are now to be found in the Church?

taht God has no more dealing with national Isreal, just deals with jews on ondividual basis by those who receive jesus as Messaih are laced into Church?