End Times Prophecy?

[Ed Edwards]

Mel Miller: //I think you will respond that the 7th Trumpet will
sound at Mid-Point of Daniel's 70th Seven!//

I think near the end of Daniel's 70th Seven.
The first half of Daniels 70th Seven is the wrath of man (the antichrist)
the second half of Daniels 70th Seven is the
Wrath of God (but NOT the only/unique wrath of God).

I think the 'sounding of the 7th Trumpet' is the Seven bowls/vials,
AKA (also known as) THE WRATH OF GOD. But this is not
the only WRATH OF GOD.

Because the 7th Trumpet is a list of events, that is why I never
assign '7th Trumpet' of Revelation and 'last trump' of
1 Corinthians 15:52 as the same. The 'Last trump' of 1 Cor 15:52
is the last trumpet of the Church Age (Time of the Gentiles, Age of
Grace, etc.). The 7th Trumpet of Revelation is the last trumpet
of the Tribulation Period (AKA known as 'the wrath', the 70th
week of Daniel).

 

[Mel Miller]

End Time Prophecy

EE,

You answered only my 2nd question; i.e., the timing of the 7th Trumpet:
You place the 7th Trumpet "near the end of Daniel's 70th Seven".

Your answer to the first question is much more important:

"When do you think "time will be no longer"? Here is where we will surely
differ. But please explain exactly what years you think "chronos-time" includes.
At what point will there no longer be any more delay"?

Mel

 

[Mel Miller]

End Times Prophecy

EE,

I have the feeling you wish that I would fill-in on my own question. So:

"When will Prophetic Time be no longer"? Rev.10:6.
Three statements provide the Setting for the Last Day:

“In the days after the great tribulation”. Mark 13:27.
“In the days God’s Mystery was finished". Aorist Ind.
"Whenever the 7th Trumpet is about to sound”. Rev.10:7.


Prophetic Time Ends within 3½ days of the 7th Trumpet. The Last day begins when the signs of Seal 6 occur. The Last Trump of Revelation sounds after prophetic time has “FINISHED the mystery of God”. This includes the entire 2nd half of Daniel’s 70th Seven. On Day 1260, “chronos-time” will be FINISHED (no longer be subject to a countdown). Rev.10:6-7; Rev.11:6-7.

The word “finished” is #5055 and #5056, teleo or telos, meaning a “complete end, a definite point of time”. Prophetic Time Ends when the Two Prophets “FINISH their task”, within 3½ days of the Last Trump of Revelation, when there will be “no delay” except for the final Martyrs to be "killed who must be killed”. Rev.6:9-11.

God knows on which of the final 3½ days the Last Martyr will die. Therefore the Last Trump must sound 3 times on the Last Day at an Hour known only to the Father!

Because "God's wrath comes at the 7th Trumpet", it will sound once to crown Christ King and to announce God’s “apponted time to judge the dead" (Raise and gather);
2nd to meet and "Reward the saints and prophets and all who fear God, small and great" and 3rd, "destroy all those destroying the earth". (Retribution)! Rev.11:18.

In order for Prophetic Time to be FINISHED, armies must already be crossing the Euphrates (6th Trumpet) and be gathering to the Armageddon plain (6th Plague). This is
the context in which “Blessed is the one watching” as Jesus is “coming suddenly as a thief and none of those who dwell on all the face of all the earth will escape” unless they are “willing to die and keep begging for mercy”. Luke 21:34-36; Luke 17:33.

The Plagues “were finished” as of Rev.15:1 but “should FINISH God’s patience” before the Temple Opens for the 7th Trumpet to sound ... on one of 3½ days after the “Endtime is no longer” in process of being FINISHED! God’s Mystery ends in the days when the Last Trump is about to sound and the Two Prophets FINISH their task" and in 3 days rise up on the Last Day. Rev.10:7; 11:7.

This word FINISHED is used of the 7 Last Plagues as an Aorist Indicative, past tense; Rev.15:1 and then, in retrospect after the Temple opens, it appears in the Aorist Subjunctive to anticipate a prior fulfillment during the smoke-filled Temple.

God’s patience (thumos) ends before the decree: “It is Done" (Rev.16:17) and men say: “The Day of God’s and the Lamb’s wrath has come”. Rev.6:17. But 40 of 100 verses must be fulfilled while the Temple is "filled with the smoke of God's glory and power" and the Last Plague remains suspended in the air. Rev.15:8.

The Plagues “FINISH” God's patience in allowing men to “repent” before John sees the Great and Wonderful Sign in heaven that His deeds were righteous. Rev.15:1,4. The Martyrs and 144,000 Jews “stand before God to sing the songs of Moses & the Lamb”. Rev.14:2-4; Rev.15:2-4.

Daniel has the same picture. “They present the Son of Man to the Ancient of Days and the Coronation of Christ occurs after the Court sits in judgment on the Beast (Court of Seal 7 precedes the Coronation of Trump 7). "God brings the Saints with Christ (I Thess.4:13-14) to destroy the Beast, take possession of the Kingdom and give it to the people of the saints"! Dan.7:13-27.

The 7th Trumpet sounds after "time is no longer and God's mystery was finished". It sounds after the 6th
and 7th Seals open and while armies of the 6th Trumpet and 6th Plague are in place for total destruction! To
count on this is to know the secret of God's mystery.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:

 

[Ed Edwards]

Sorry, I couldn't post my earlier writing. BB access problems,
internet access issues.

Time is a finite sub-set of the infinite set: eternity.
So the old uneducated/redneck preacher that talks
about when time ends and eternity begins is 'full of it'.
Eternity by nature has no beginning and no end. God
is the creator of Eternity and exists outside Eternity as
well inside Eternity.

BTW, it is worse than I describe, a common misunderstanding
of the King James Version (KJV) leads to the 'when time ends
and eternity begins' doctrinal error.

Ad Time (eternity) H5703 - used once
Aion Time (age) G165
Aionios Time (eternal) G166
Chronos Time (time) G5550
Eis aion aion Time (forever and ever) G1519, G165, G165
Kairos Time (time ) G2540
Hemera Time (day) G2250
Hora Time (hour) G2610

Isa 57:15 (KJV1611 Edition):
For thus saith the High and loftie One that inhabiteth eternitie,
whose Name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place:
with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit,
to reuiue the spirit of the humble,
and to reuiue the heart of the contrite ones.

 

[Mel Miller]

End Time Prophecy

EE,

Quote:
_________________________________________________________
"BTW, it is worse than I describe, a common misunderstanding of the
King James Version (KJV) leads to the 'when time ends and eternity begins' doctrinal error".
_________________________________________________________

I see no sense in making the above irrelevant statement about the relation of the "end of time" to which Daniel refers (Dan.12:4) and the so-called "beginning of eternity".

Eternity has no beginning and no end. Prophetic Time has an end. That end occurs at the deaths of the Two Prophets. The Last Day is the unknown day which occurs while they remain dead waiting for the last martyr to be killed on the DAY for Resurrection and Rapture. All those who believe "rise up and are gathered together above" on the same Last Day.

"The mystery of God was finished" as of Day #1260. The unknown Day of the Lord occurs on one of the 3 1/2 days that follow the completion of the task given to these Two Witnesses. "When they FINISH their task,
the mystery of God was also FINISHED". Rev.10:6-7; Rev.11:6-7.

The End of this Age is part of the expanse of eternity and not related to a so-called error of the "end of time and beginning of eternity".
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:

 

[Ed Edwards]

Mel Miller: //Whomever: //Eternity has no beginning and no end. Prophetic Time has an end.//

Amen, Brother Mel Miller -- Preach it!



Mel Miller: //Eternity has no beginning and no end. Prophetic Time has an end.
That end occurs at the deaths of the Two Prophets.
The Last Day is the unknown day which occurs while they remain dead waiting for the last martyr to be killed on the DAY for Resurrection and Rapture. All those who believe "rise up and are gathered together above" on the same Last Day.//

The assumptions made leading to this logic are bad assumptions.
When I assume that the Two Prophets teach/preach/zap-distractors in
the first half of Daniel's 70th week and are in heaven the second half
of the week - that is when I get the most constant. Come on, chapter 11
of Revelation is in the MIDDLE of Revelation and talks about the
middle of Daniel's 70th week.

 

[Mel Miller]

End Time Prophecy

//Eternity has no beginning and no end. Prophetic Time has an end.
That end occurs at the deaths of the Two Prophets. The Last Day is the unknown day which occurs while they remain dead waiting for the last martyr to be killed on the DAY for Resurrection and Rapture. All believers "rise up and are gathered together above" on the same Last Day.//

You replied:
"The assumptions made leading to this logic are bad assumptions. When I assume the Two Prophets teach/preach/zap-distractors in the first half of Daniel's 70th week and are in heaven the second half of the week - that is when I get the most constant.
You concluded:
"Come on, chapter 11 of Revelation is in the MIDDLE of Revelation and talks about the middle of Daniel's 70th week.[/quote]
_____________________________________________________________

Hey Ed,

You assume "the assumptions leading to this logic are bad assumptions"!

Is it my bad logic that Time ends 3 1/2 days before the 7th Trumpet?
Is it my bad logic that Two Prophets rise up on the Last Day?
Is it my bad logic that God's wrath occurs at the 7th Trumpet?
Have I "assumed" that "God's Mystery Was Finished and the appointed time for the saints' resurrection and rewards occurs on the same DAY as retribution to the destroyers of earth ... on the Day Trump 7 sounds"?

Why do you assume the 2 Prophets rise up 3 1/2 years before the end?
Why do you assume "God's Mystery was finished" at Mid-Week? And why
do you see both occurring before the Beast "takes peace from earth"?

Why not use Scripture to back up your claim that the Two Witnesses
are killed 3 1/2 YEARS BEFORE the END. The 7th Trumpet sounds that "God's wrath has come" within 3 1/2 days; not within 3 1/2 years after they are killed. Rev.11:7-11.

How can "all believers rise up on the Last Day" if these two rise up 1260 days prior to the Last Day? "All who believe will rise up and be gathered together above to meet the Lord in the air after the great tribulation; on the Day Christ appears in glory". John 6:38-40,44,54; Mark 13:24,27; I Thess.4:13-17. That is the only time "all the saints come with Jesus".

Those whom "God brings with Jesus" include the souls of the Martyrs who die during the great tribulation. I Thess.4:13-14. When will you admit this promise of God applies to believers UP TO THE DAY CHRIST COMES with all the Saints? I Thess.3:13.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:

 

[Ed Edwards]

When one makes incorrect assumptions, then one can both get
true results and false results. Unfortunately, you cannot independently tell
from the incorrect assumption which is the case.

I have more on my place than I can say grace over
so the following answers are the SHORT (but incomplete) answers.

Mel Miller: //Is it my bad logic that Time ends 3 1/2 days before the 7th Trumpet?//

Yes, that is an incorrect conclusion not jiving with the Bible.
Revelation 11 does talk about 'the last angel sounding' so could be
talking of the 7th trumpet. More likely, he tells what will happen
in the future of the 3½-days.

Mel Miller: //Is it my bad logic that Two Prophets rise up on the Last Day?//

Yes, that is an incorrect conclusion not jiving with the Bible.

Mel Miller: //Is it my bad logic that God's wrath occurs at the 7th Trumpet?//

 

[Mel Miller]

End Times Prophecy

EE,

Quote:
_____________________________________________________________
"When one makes incorrect assumptions, then one can both get
true results and false results".
_____________________________________________________________

This remark needs no response!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The question remains:

How can "all believers rise up on the Last Day" if these two rise up 1260 days prior to the Last Day?

"All who believe will rise up and be gathered together above to meet the Lord in the air after the great tribulation; on the Day Christ appears in glory". John 6:38-40,44,54; Mark 13:24,27; I Thess.4:13-17. That is the only time "all the saints come with Jesus".
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:

 

[Ed Edwards]

Mel Miller: //How can "all believers rise up on the Last Day" if these
two rise up 1260 days prior to the Last Day?//

The same way that the rapture of the Church Age Saints
starts the 7-year-long, 70th week of Daniel, Tribulation Period,
Wrath, Second Coming of Jesus, etc. and the Coming of Jesus
to destroy the Antichrist and his kingdom, and to set up the
Millinnial Messanic Kingdom ends the same period.

 

[Mel Miller]

End Times Prophecy

Mel Miller: //How can "all believers rise up on the Last Day" if these two rise up 1260 days prior to the Last Day?//

Ed Edwards' "Incorrect Assumption":
_____________________________________________________________
The same way that the rapture of the Church Age Saints starts the 7-year-long, 70th week of Daniel, Tribulation Period, Wrath, Second Coming of Jesus, etc. and the Coming of Jesus to destroy the Antichrist and his kingdom, and to set up the Millinnial Messanic Kingdom ends the same period.

_____________________________________________________________
And so the evidence continues to mount up that whatever you want words to mean, it's ok to make false assumptions. You have admitted this:
Your Prior Quote:
__________________________________________________ ___________
"When one makes incorrect assumptions, then one can both get true results and false results".
__________________________________________________ ___________

The above "incorrect assumption" is that the WORDS Jesus used can
mean whatever you wish them to mean. In this case, you assume
that "last day" means 7 years.

This follows your "incorrect assumption" that when Jesus said He will
"gather the elect from earth to heaven AFTER the great tribulation",
He actually meant "BEFORE the great tribulation".

So, in light of the quote above, your claims that *DAY* means "7 Years" and *AFTER* means "BEFORE" are a result of your own "incorrect assumptions"!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net raying:

 

[Ed Edwards]

Mel Miller: //The above "incorrect assumption" is that the WORDS Jesus used can
mean whatever you wish them to mean. In this case, you assume
that "last day" means 7 years.//

Unfortunately some people (especially preterists) don't know the
difference from an assumption and a conclusion.
Actually I assume the WORDS of Jesus are to be used to
understand other parts of the Bible. Contrast that with your
garden varity preterists (for example) who try to understand
each passage in & by itself.

Mel Miller: //This follows your "incorrect assumption" that when Jesus said He will
"gather the elect from earth to heaven AFTER the great tribulation",
He actually meant "BEFORE the great tribulation".//

Actually, I have a hopeful intaerpretation of Matthew 24:4-44 using the outline of
Matthew 24:3. By contrast you have a hopeless interpertation of Matthew 24:31
in light of Matthew 24:29.

So here is my conclusion:
Matthew 24:4-14 contains SIGNS that the Church Age continues.
So if you see PEACE break out - it is a sign the church age may end soon.
So if you see People quit trying to spread the world to all nations - it
is a sign the chruch age may be gone.

 

[Ed Edwards]

For those who haven't been following my
scriptural logic:
---------------------------------------------------
In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables.

Using that verse as a template helps us
understand the rest of the chapter:

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur
(not in the order the questions were asked):

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. 'Polysyndeton' is a retorical device that uses
(in English) repeated connectors (usually 'and')
instead of an outline. How quaint: using a retorical
device to explain END TIME PROPHECY.


This is most noticable
in the Bible in Genesis 1 and Matthew 24.
I believe the major outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
last days, etc.)

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
that the church age continues.

 

[RO Collins]

Unfortunately some people (especially preterists) don't know the
difference from an assumption and a conclusion.
Actually I assume the WORDS of Jesus are to be used to
understand other parts of the Bible. Contrast that with your
garden varity preterists (for example) who try to understand
each passage in & by itself.

I don't know any "garden variety" preterist, but the ones I do know look back to Hosea, Amos, Joel, Micah, Malichi to understand what Jesus said when He proclaimed...

Matt5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

The garden variety dispensationalist that I know always pull out the "some but not all" answer to this proclimation.

We are left with this "church age" that is here only because the "Jews rejected Jesus" idea. As if God was suprised by the rejection, and had to come up with the Plan B. Plan B being, "well since the "Jews" rejected me, I'll give it to the Gentiles."

But Jesus said....

Mat 10:6 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Or

Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

So he wasn't sent to save "religious Jews", but to save the lost sheep of Israel.

Why would he care about the lost sheep of Israel that God had diviorced 800 years before saying in...

Hsa 1: 9 Then said [God], Call his name Loammi: for ye [are] not my people, and I will not be your [God].

Because He then promised in...

Hsa 2:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to [them which were] not my people, Thou [art] my people; and they shall say, [Thou art] my God.

Followed the fulfillment in Romans 9:25,26

As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

So if Paul wrote this to the "gentiles" in Rome who were the gentiles if not the lost sheep of Israel.

Hows that for connecting OT prophecy with NT fulfillment? Pretty good for a preterist trying to "understand each passage in & by itself."

 

[Mel Miller]

End Times Prophecy

EE,

Now your assumptions not only are incorrect with regard to "ENDTIME
Prophecy" but they have caused you to get involved with Preterism!!

Quote:
__________________________________________________________
2. What is the sign of His coming? Matthew 24:15-30
__________________________________________________________

I believe Matt.24:15-26 gives "the Sign" of the ENDTIME and NOT, as you
claim, the Sign of Christ's coming. Your incorrect assumption has got you
involved with a Preterist who thinks the "lost sheep" of Israel were the
Gentiles!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Until you get the facts, your assumptions fuilfill what you claim, i.e.,
that "incorrect assumptions get false results"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are my brother in Christ, but are leading others in the wrong way.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:

 

[Mel Miller]

End Times

EE,

I emphasize that there is no way to see the difference between the signs of the ENDTIME and THE Sign of Christ's coming via your assumptions:

Quote:
_____________________________________________________________
3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.
_____________________________________________________________

THE SIGNS of the (complete) End of the Age are the same SIGN as that of the Coming (erchomai) and Presense (parousia) of the Son of Man!!!!
It is the signs in the "sun, moon and stars on the Day Christ comes FOR
and WITH all the Saints and destroys the destroyers of earth"!

One of THE SIGNS of the Tribulation Period will be the "abomination in
the holy place" which occurs 3 1/2 years BEFORE THE SIGNS of Christ's
Coming. Yet you claim that "no signs precede the end of the age".

WOW! Is that why you claim the words "after the tribulation" mean "before the tribuation" and that the Last "DAY" means "7 Years"??

Your "incorrect assumptions" have opened debate with a Preterist!!!!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey: