End Times

[Mel Miller]

ituttut,

Quote:
________________________________________________________________
Mark 9:1 speaks to "Pentecost", for that is what the "kingdom" is to be like, but it was refused. Many saw the Power of the "kingdom".

Agree, not one believer in the Body of Christ today is appointed to His wrath.
________________________________________________________________

Why would Jesus promise that "some would NOT taste death, by any means," before Pentecost? Not one of them died before Pentecost. The
warning was given to prepare "some" who survive the demonstration of God's Kingdom Power by the Two Witnesses ... but must still be willing to die for Christ while these two lie dead for up to 3 1/2 days on a street in Jerusalem! Revelation shows the context. Rev.12:10-14; Rev.11:7-12.

I am not surprised you ignore that "not one saint" is ever appointed to God's wrath! You have "pre-selected" only Pre-Trib Saints to escape
God's wrath! You have "pre-selected" only the 12 tribes of Jews to be
"gathered by the angels" and abandoned faithful Trib-Survivors on earth during the Hour of God's wrath ... on top of their having suffered much thru the great tribulation! What hope do you offer for Surviving Saints??

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[ituttut]

ituttut,
Quotes:
________________________________________________________________
Where are your comforting words for those in the Body of Christ?

We are of the 1st resurrection, but not seen as are those (who are "kingdom" believers) also in the 1st resurrection that occurs later.

Those in the Body of Christ will not go through the "tribulation".
_____________________________________________________________
The dead in Christ (including Trib-Martyrs) will rise first and we who survive (including Trib-Survivors) will be caught up to meet them.

That is our comfort. There is no Scripture that states only Pre-Trib
saints are exempt from God's wrath. And there is no Scripture that
exempts Pre-Trib saints from great tribulation.

How can you see comfort in going "through the tribulation?

Your theories deny the "word of the Lord" that He will raise up every/
all believers on the last day and He will gather the elect from earth to heaven and He will send the angels to gather them out of the uttermost part of the heavens".

You still won't address (suppose lack of understanding) we that will be "caught up to Him in the Air when He calls our name. This is very comforting to we that will not be required to go through the "tribulation".

The angels will gather the Israel "elect" in that day.

Anything less/other than that is heresy. And believe it or not, you actually admit that Trib-Martyrs take part in the "first resurrection".

I don't deny those will be in the "first resurrection", and I've never said otherwise. In fact the saved and the unsaved will be raised in "that day". But we in the Body of Christ have already attainted in our "dispensation" that which is prophesied for those in prophecy.

Each in his own order does not mean two "last days" or two "last trumps" or two "first resurrections"! The order of resurrection was Christ first and then all who are in Christ on the Last Day. Those "of the earthly kingdom" who are saved during the Millennium will never die to begin with"!!

We are in the Body of Christ, therefore raised with Him, He being the first fruit. All I know is we will be caught up to Him in the air, and be with Him forever more. We start from the original resurrection, and Christ being the "resurrection and the life", being in Him connects us to Him. Others not in our dispensation, are considered to be in the 1st resurrection (after His Church Body). Those of the "kingdom gospel", are not of the" Body gospel", therefore a distinction must be made of those made part of the 1st resurrection.

Be a good idea to read Isaiah again of those going into, and being borne in the millennium. Long lives Yes, but forever No.

 

[ituttut]

ituttut,
Quote:

__________________________________________________ ___________
It is the angels that round up the "tribes", those of Israel. This is not we of the Body of Christ. We need to read His Word, and believe it is His Word, and not what some wish to make it.
__________________________________________________ ___________

Once again, I remind you, be accurate in quoting Scripture!!!!!!!!

Jesus does not say the Angels will gather the "tribes of Israel from
earth to heaven". The Angels will "gather the elect OUT OF THE FOUR WINDS FROM the uttermost part of the HEAVENS"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

To be accurate we must agree with His Word. You agree the Angels will "gather the elect OUT OF THE FOUR WINDS FROM the uttermost part of the HEAVENS"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" and ifyou would follow through, leaving your "theory" behind you will see His Word gives you the necessary information in Revelation 7:1-8.

Your statement distorts the truth by substituting the 12 tribes of the nation of Jews for "the Elect". You actually omit that Jesus will "gather all
believers from earth to heaven" as He promises in Mark 13:27!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am true to scripture. Doesn't Jesus say He came for only His own, His sheep, His elect?

I refuse to change His words to fit into the tradition of man.

You are saying the Angels will "gather the Elect Jews only" and leave
the Tribulation Saints in their mortal bodies after facing God's wrath!!!!!!

Is it I that say these things, or His Word as to the elect? I have never said the Tribulation saints are left in their mortal bodies. I have said those not in the Body of Christ, those that are not raptured before the "tribulation" will go into the tribulation. If one is not of the 144,000 thousand, it is going to be a very tough situation to be in for they will be fighting to get into the "kingdom to come", and not the "kingdom of Jesus Christ" which could have been entered into by "believing on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation".

 

[ituttut]

ituttut,

Quote:
Mark 9:1 speaks to "Pentecost", for that is what the "kingdom" is to be like, but it was refused. Many saw the Power of the "kingdom".

Agree, not one believer in the Body of Christ today is appointed to His wrath.
__________________________________________________ ______________

Why would Jesus promise that "some would NOT taste death, by any means," before Pentecost? Not one of them died before Pentecost. The
warning was given to prepare "some" who survive the demonstration of God's Kingdom Power by the Two Witnesses ... but must still be willing to die for Christ while these two lie dead for up to 3 1/2 days on a street in Jerusalem! Revelation shows the context. Rev.12:10-14; Rev.11:7-12.

Judas died

I am not surprised you ignore that "not one saint" is ever appointed to God's wrath! You have "pre-selected" only Pre-Trib Saints to escape
God's wrath! You have "pre-selected" only the 12 tribes of Jews to be
"gathered by the angels" and abandoned faithful Trib-Survivors on earth during the Hour of God's wrath ... on top of their having suffered much thru the great tribulation! What hope do you offer for Surviving Saints??

Again Mel, it is not I that wrote scripture. Those that go into the "tribulation" do so for they are not in the Body of Christ, and will be in "His kingdom". The Apostles will be, and we will be, but we have built our foundation on the gospel of Paul, and not that which was given to Peter. But that foundation of Peter today is not available, so that only leaves the gospel of "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and we will be saved", for that is the Grace gospel of through faith in Jesus we will be saved, with no law of ordinances to obey.

 

[Mel Miller]

Ituttut,

On June 5th, you responded to my following quote:

Quote:

I am not surprised you ignore that "not one saint" is ever appointed to God's wrath! You have "pre-selected" only Pre-Trib Saints to escape God's wrath! You have "pre-selected" only the 12 tribes of Jews to be "gathered by the angels" and have abandoned faithful Trib-Survivors on earth during the Hour of God's wrath ... on top of their having suffered much thru the great tribulation! What hope do you offer for Surviving Saints??


Again Mel, it is not I that wrote scripture. Those that go into the "tribulation" do so for they are not in the Body of Christ, and will be in "His kingdom". The Apostles will be, and we will be, but we have built our foundation on the gospel of Paul, and not that which was given to Peter. But that foundation of Peter today is not available, so that only leaves the gospel of "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and we will be saved", for that is the Grace gospel of through faith in Jesus we will be saved, with no law of ordinances to obey.

My Response:
You have given no proof that Trib-Saints DON'T belong to the Body of Christ. You have two Groups of Saints, i.e., those that follow Peter and
those that follow Paul. That's schismatic doctrine condemned by Paul!

Your response completely avoided my question about suffering Saints!!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:

 

[ituttut]

Ituttut,

On June 5th, you responded to my following quote:

Quote:

I am not surprised you ignore that "not one saint" is ever appointed to God's wrath! You have "pre-selected" only Pre-Trib Saints to escape God's wrath! You have "pre-selected" only the 12 tribes of Jews to be "gathered by the angels" and have abandoned faithful Trib-Survivors on earth during the Hour of God's wrath ... on top of their having suffered much thru the great tribulation! What hope do you offer for Surviving Saints??


Again Mel, it is not I that wrote scripture. Those that go into the "tribulation" do so for they are not in the Body of Christ, and will be in "His kingdom". The Apostles will be, and we will be, but we have built our foundation on the gospel of Paul, and not that which was given to Peter. But that foundation of Peter today is not available, so that only leaves the gospel of "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and we will be saved", for that is the Grace gospel of through faith in Jesus we will be saved, with no law of ordinances to obey.

My Response:
You have given no proof that Trib-Saints DON'T belong to the Body of Christ. You have two Groups of Saints, i.e., those that follow Peter and
those that follow Paul. That's schismatic doctrine condemned by Paul!

Mel I don't believe I said what you think I said. Please look again at what I say - Quote "Those that go into the "tribulation" do so for they are not in the Body of Christ, and will be in "His kingdom" Unquote. I didn't say they would not be in His Body. How could they be in His Body and go through the tribulation? No. The few that make it through the tribulation gain their entrance, not by the Grace of God Through the Faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, but by the Grace of God By their faith with their works (Rev. 14:12-13).

Your response completely avoided my question about suffering Saints!!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:

Ananias on instruction from Christ tells Paul the words of Jesus Christ - " For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake, Acts 9:16. I doubt there is any one who has suffered more for Christ Jesus than Paul. Why? He didn't believe what Jesus Christ told him on earth, so he is now going to suffer. Had He not chosen Paul, Paul would be doomed to the "lake of fire". Some of us that He chooses have other ideas. If we don't "believe on His name for our salvation" and the "tribulation" comes and we are still here, we will suffer, and probably more than Paul. If we are in "our own religion" not paying attention to what scripture tells us what can we expect? Joy and Peace through His faith, or suffering and heartache in Our faith in Him.

Please don't get me wrong. I'm not saying you are not saved, or anyone else, for what we are discussing here is not our salvation, but what we believe in Our Salvation that we have worked out. I don't believe in my salvation that I will be allowed to go through the Tribulation. You in your salvationbelieve you will (correct me if I'm wrong). I believe we have choice in our Salvation. I choose not to go through the Tribulation, and you do. Will we get our Wish? Scripture says I will be raptured. You believe Scripture tells you, you will go through the Tribulation? Then I believe you will, and will suffer greatly, for you had the opportunity to avoid His Wrath, but did not believe what He told you.

There is no other name under heaven whereby we can be saved the Holy Spirit tells us. If we don't take this offer today, we can bet our bottom dollar we are going to greatly suffer for His sake. He says you don't believe ME? I'll make a believer of you.

 

[Mel Miller]

Endtimes

Ituttut,

Over three months ago, April 10, John3v36 asked what “practical significance” the Endtime will have on Believers.

I wrote: “Those who "endure to the end" will be saved from
physical death. Those who "survive to the end will rule over
the nations". But "some must still taste death until the last one who must be killed has been killed".

The purpose of the great tribulation is to make Believers faithful witnesses of Christ who are worthy because they "love not their life unto death". Rev.12:10-11.

Benjamin wrote that he will be “more prepared if Mel is right”. Calvibaptist states the purpose is to redeem people for God’s glory. J.D. believes the bible is “intentionally vague on the future”.

Ituttut thinks there is no purpose intended for us in the Body of Christ, other than the immediacy of "spreading His Word".

In that same response, you claim I am “bravely” saying I will go through the tribulation and need to understand that I will not”. #28

I saw no direct understanding of God’s purpose for the Endtime. You are committed to an agenda based on denying that Endtime Saints are part of the “Body of Christ Church”. So how can you see the purpose?

In #32 I responded that the order of events helps Endtime Martyrs understand what they face "in the days whenever the 7th Trumpet is about to sound". Rev.10:6-7. They will need the encouragement of this Book to remain faithful to the END.

In #45 you claim that I am “way off” for believing that Seal Six is the Day of God’s wrath … the last day of the Endtime. You did not refute that fact and continue with your view that no purpose for the Endtime exists since the “Body of Christ Church will (supposedly) be in heaven before the first seal opens”.

In #49 you state that I “put forth error of understanding scripture”. Yet you then question Jesus outright by refusing to admit He said “the signs” of Seal Six occur “after the great tribulation”. Matt.24:29; Mark 13:24.

In all your postings I fail to detect any concern for Endtime suffering Saints, some of whom Jesus said will “taste death after they see God’s Kingdom coming in power” through the Two Witnesses. Mark 9:1; Rev.12:10-11.

You miss the meaning of Paul’s teaching about the time for comforting one another. His word of "comfort" is that those who "survive to the End" will be "caught up to meet their loved ones". The "loved ones" include every one who has "died in the Lord" and that includes the Trib-Martyrs who “come out of the great tribulation” in Rev.7:9-17.

I repeat, when will you answer my question: What is the hope of suffering Saints during the Endtime of great tribulation? When will you admit the question of this thread is important for those whom Jesus wants to prepare for the great tribulation prior to His return?

You don't seem to realize the problem in this thread by your conclusion:

"If we don't take this offer today, we can bet our bottom dollar we are going to greatly suffer for His sake".

The thread is about Endtime Saints ... NOT about Believers today!!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:

 

[EdSutton]

A former pastor of mine once related to me that someone once asked him if he was a-millenial, 'pre', or 'post'? His wise response was "I'm 'Pro'."

Ed

 

[LadyEagle]

When the trumpet sounds, I suppose there will be those who will still be arguing that it isn't supposed to happen until after the Great Tribulation or probably not going to happen at all or maybe will just refuse to go since it doesn't line up with their theology.

I do wonder sometimes if those who are not "looking for His appearing" will be left behind to go through the Great Tribulation. Maybe the ones going through the Great Tribulation will be those who are beheaded for the cause of Christ. I'd rather be looking up and listening for the trumpet and be ready with my lamp trimmed. Just a thought.

 

[Mel Miller]

Lady Eagle,

Your quote applies to Tribulation Saints even more than to us today !!
Quote:
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I do wonder sometimes if those who are not "looking for His appearing" will be left behind to go through the Great Tribulation. Maybe the ones going through the Great Tribulation will be those who are beheaded for the cause of Christ. I'd rather be looking up and listening for the trumpet and be ready with my lamp trimmed. Just a thought.
_______________________________________________________________

Even though Tribulation saints will not know the exact day or hour, they will watch, Jesus taught, because they will "know His coming is near when they see the abomination standing in the Temple". Matt.24:15,33,42.

Paul assures these saints who endure to the End that they are not appointed to God's wrath. He comforts them by assuring ALL the Saints will come with Jesus (I Thess.3:13) and that means "God will bring the souls of the dead in Christ with Jesus" before those who endure to the End are caught up to meet their loved ones in the air.

Those who "endure to the end" will reign on the earth. Rev.2:25-27.
Those "beheaded will serve God in heaven". Rev.3:12; Rev.7:15-17.

Those who overcome to the end will be "looking for His appearing" after
"enduring to the end". Matt.24:14. That's why Jesus urged tribulation saints to "watch" when the armies are "gathered to Armageddon and He comes as a thief"! Rev.16:15-16.

Neithr Paul nor Jesus distinguishes between those saints who die before
the great tribulation and those who are "beheaded during that time".
I submit the traditions of men have taken the place of Paul's teaching that we must "enter the kingdom of God through much tribulation"; and
of Peter's teaching that "judgment must begin with God's household".

Obviously, with sins rampant among many believers today, they do not
yet have their "lamps trimmed" for the Last Trump, the 7th Trump!!!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:

 

[Ed Edwards]

Mel Miller: //The thread is about Endtime Saints ... NOT about Believers today!!//

And the difference is?

-----------------------------------------

The Five Tribulations
of the Holy Bible
Contrasted and compared
by ed

The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
tribulation: tribulation, distress, afliction, trouble

1. tribulation due to the human condition
WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adam & Eve
WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointements,
affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
anguish, torment, adversity,
travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
WHEN: From Adam's explusion from the Garden of Eden
to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?

2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millinnial kingdom of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
gift of martyrdom

3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
WHO: Yisrael dispersed among the goy
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
(from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus

4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
(AKA: Wrath of the Lamb /Revelation 6:17/ )
WHO: citizens of the world
WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist
WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
WHAT: the wrath of God
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
Period found in the O.T.:

The tribulation in Deut 4:30
the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
The year of recompence in Isaiah 34:8
The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:

 

[ituttut]

Mel, somehow overlooked answering your post.

Originally Posted by Mel Miller
Ituttut: Bless your heart Mel, you just can't see it. We in Christ cannot be seen in Revelation. We were raptured, and I Thessalonians 4:16-17 is not tied to your Revelation 14:13. Revelation is in prophecy future, of which we are not, other than already being in Christ Jesus forever.

Paul tells us he had a "dispensational" gospel given to him by Christ Jesus from heaven. That gospel is for us today, and it is in this "dispensation" that we are "taken up to Him", not the "dispensation" to come which is the "dispensation" that was revealed to John as God again deals personally with His Own, just as he promised.

Mel to ituttut,
Yes, let’s read the Scripture together to see why I "just do not get" your false teaching that makes Paul himself deny the word of the Lord IF "all the saints who come with Jesus do not include Trib-Martyrs"! I Thess.3:13 Your baseless theory is built on an assumption that the Prophecy of the Book of Revelation does NOT apply to all the Saints in the Body of Christ ... of which Trib-Martyrs are constituent members just as you and I today. Here is your false deduction:
Quote:
__________________________________________________ ___________________________
Per ituttut: "Those raised in the 1st resurrection are all known from the beginning until the end, with exception of those (we) that were raised to be with Him forever as shown in I Thess.4: 16-17. Revelation 13 is specifically to those … Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth ……... I see we contradict Christ if we hold it possible for those in the Body of Christ will be allowed to go into the `tribulation period' for that would mean the Holy Spirit can be taken from us". ____________________________________________

Per Mel: Here you leave out the primary reference to the saints whom "God brings WITH Jesus from heaven ... the Dead in Christ" (I Thess.4:13-14) and that includes the Martyrs who "die in the Lord". Rev.14:13. You have not proved the "dead in Christ" during the tribulation are NOT members of the Body and Bride of Christ. You have only set up a "division" of Scripture that arbitrarily excludes us from the "first resurrection" that irrefutably includes the great tribulation martyrs!

Those dead in the Body of Christ are first raised then we are "caught up to meet Him in the air". Jesus does not come back to earth at this time for the tribulation is about to begin. God allows Satan to have his day before "jailing him" and then later throwing him in the lake of fire.

Mel, let's take another look, understanding the time frame that Paul speaks of - I Thess 4:13-14, "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him." Do you see what Paul is leading up to? He wants them to try and understand those that died, perhaps even one just the day before sleep, and Jesus will bring with Him. In verse 17 we see "Then we which are alive and remain….." What you are saying is impossible. You are saying Paul is living after the great tribulation.

Can you see where you problem lays Mel? How did the Martyrs who "die in the Lord" in Rev. 14:13 die before Paul? Paul had been dead for 30 years before God allowed John to write the book of Revelation.

Your next Quote is totally false: __________________________________________________ ___________________________
"The Mark reference speaks of Angels doing the gathering".
__________________________________________________ __________________________
You should have said the Matt.24:31 reference speaks of Angels completing the gathering that Jesus Himself starts in Mark 13:27. "The Son of Man will send (apostelei; 3rd person singular) the angels and He will gather (episunaξ?ei; 3rd person singular) the Elect from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven". Then the angels (episunaξousin; 3rd person plural) will gather these Elect out of the 4 winds from one end of heaven to the other". Matt.24:31. Please be accurate in quoting Scripture. This requires a knowledge of original Greek text!

You misquote Mark 13:27. Matthew and Mark reference must agree, not to contradict Revelation chapter 7.

Matthew 24 says after the tribulation (we are already taken up) "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" first appears, then all the tribes(Israel) of the earth mourn will mourn (Rev. 1:7). Revelation 1:7 includes all kindreds and includes no details. But Jesus said while on earth (Matthew and Mark) He only came for His own, and when God uses the word tribes (Matt. Reference), it denotes only Israel. and they (Israel) "shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." From the compass of North, East, South, and West, He will gather them. Notice He does not shout here, but has His angels make a noise of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect (Israel). Matthew 24 speaks of the 144,000 of the Tribes of Israel, as seen in Revelation 7.

Please note in our understanding of the original Greek we are also to understand the interpretation the Holy Spirit shows us. If you let them, both Matthew and Mark tell us the same thing.

The Scribes, the journalists of the day also knew original Greek, but put forth false information for they did not understand what they read.

Your conclusion is actually half CORRECT. Quote: __________________________________________________ _________________________
"Prayerfully read I Thess reference and notice it Is Christ, not the Angels that come (gather) us. It is Christ Jesus that receives us".
_______________________________________________
Half correct. Jesus both RAISES UP and GATHERS every Believer!! But only until the angels, who come WITH Christ, continue the gathering from the uttermost part of heaven unto the Synagogue in the Sky. 2 Thess.2:1. The Lord Jesus will "raise up every/all believers on the last day (John 6:38-40) and He will gather us from earth to heaven on one of the (3½) days after the 1260 days of the great tribulation have ended at the killing of the Two Witnesses.

The two witnesses are taken in the first half of the 7 year tribulation period.

Only "some must still taste death", Jesus said, "after they see God’s Kingdom Power having come" thru the Two Witnesses for 1260 days! That is why "no one but the Father kinows the exact day and the exact Hour". Mark 9:1. But not one believer is "appointed to God’s wrath" and that includes Trib-Survivors!!

Mark 9:1 speaks to the "kingdom that was at hand", and they saw the Power at Pentecost, but they refused that "kingdom that was to come". This is the reason for Damascus Road, so God can now save the Jew just as we Gentiles, as He reconciles the world unto Himself. It is Christ Jesus that we are in, before the great tribulation can begin, and He again deals with His people, and will seal 144,000 of them. And other than the two witnesses, everybody is on their own, and had better not receive the mark of the beast.

 

[Mel Miller]

Ed Edwards,

You did not answer your own question about the *difference between us
and the great tribulation saints*. Instead, you gave a *long* dissertation
on different tribulations and concluded with this unproved assumption:
Quote:
____________________________________________________________
5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist
WHAT: the wrath of God
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)

_________________________________________________________

First,
The great tribulation period (GT) is NOT the period of God's wrath!
No believer during the great tribulation will suffer God's wrath.
Unbelievers are still allowed to repent ... right up to the last day!
When God's wrath strikes, ALL who still reject Christ will die!

Second,
The GT is the final time-period for repentance prior to God's wrath!!

Third,
Since God's wrath is "punishment for rejecting the Lord Jesus", this
does not occur until Christ comes to "deliver every surviving Saint
from tribulation and destroys those who reject Him". 2 Thess.1:7-10.

Your view of God's wrath must be consistently a reference to the
punishment of unbelievers who are destined to Hell. References to
*God's wrath* have no other meaning in the Book of Revelation.

God's anger must "mix full strength with His wrath" before Christ
comes to execute His wrath. Rev.14:10. That anger reaches the
point of *mega-anger* as of the reaping of Rev.14:15-19 to the
Winepress for "treading the treading of anger and wrath" in Rev.19:15.

Conclusion:
There is no execution of God's Wrath, not even that anticipated in Rev.
14:20, until the Hour Christ descends to "gather all the saints unto Himself on the last day"!!!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:

 

[Mel Miller]

Ituttut,

You have accused me of “misquoting” Mark 13:27. I resent the implication of this charge!!!! It is one thing to misquote scripture and another to misinterpret it!!

In your last post, you omit words from the Rapture passage in I Thess.4 that determine the “time-frame” for the Raspture. Here is what you wrote:

Quote:
_______________________________________________________________________
Mel, let's take another look, understanding the time frame that Paul speaks of - I Thess 4:14 and 17. Verse 14: "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him." Verse 17: "Then we which are alive and remain….." What you are saying is impossible. You are saying Paul is living after the great tribulation.

Can you see where you problem lays Mel? How did the Martyrs who "die in the Lord" in Rev. 14:13 die before Paul? Paul had been dead for 30 years before God allowed John to write the book of Revelation.
________________________________________________________________________

You skipped verse 15 by jumping from verse 14 to 17. Here are the holy words that you omit in order to establish a wrong time-frame for the Rapture: “For this we say to you by a word of the Lord, that WE - THE ONES LIVING AND REMAINING UNTIL THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD - BY NO MEANS MAY PRECEDE THE ONES HAVING SLEPT”!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The problem of interpretation is not mine as you assume, dear friend, because those who “sleep in Jesus” continue to die UNTIL HE COMES IN GLORY. It is UNTIL HIS PRESENCE, not until a Pre-Trib Rapture that sets the time-frame for “WE (Paul as well) who will be caught up to meet the Lord at His PRESENCE”.

Now, from my experience with your responses, I do not think you will admit error! You have already determined my interpretation is “impossible”. Yet you have omitted the very words that determine the Rapture occurs only AT THE PRESENCE OF CHRIST HIMSELF.

He taught that His COMING and His PRESENCE will occur “AFTER the great tribulation”. Matt.24:27 - Presence; parousia; Matt.24:30 – Coming; erchomai. I will appreciate your not continuing to insult anyone's understanding by claiming Paul referred to a “word of the Lord that His Presence refers to a Pre-Trib Rapture”. If you insist on this method of refutation, I conclude that you continue to avoid the issue as you have done with Mark 13:27.

You are “hung up” on the assumption that those “dying in the Lord” during great tribulation cannot be included with those who die prior to the PRESENCE of the Lord!!!

The PROOF of your assumption is that you say Paul would have had to “live until after the great tribulation” in order to fulfill MY time-frame for the Rapture!

What John wrote in Revelation agrees with what Paul wrote and Jesus taught. In order for “ALL the saints to come with Jesus at His PRESENCE,” I Thess.3:13, as Paul wrote, “the Endtime called, elect and faithful must accompany the Lamb from heaven”, as John wrote in Rev.17:14, and “every believer must be raised up on the last day” as Jesus Himself taught! “Every believer” includes Apostle Paul.

Here is how you charge me with misquoting Mark 13:27 INSTEAD of showing
me how it should have been quoted:

I wrote that your next Quote is false: _______________________________________________________________
Ituttut: "The Mark 13:27 reference speaks of Angels doing the gathering".
____________________________________ __________________________
My response which you failed to acknowledge:
You should have said the Matt.24:31 reference speaks of Angels completing the gathering that Jesus Himself starts in Mark 13:27. "The Son of Man will send (apostelei; 3rd person singular) the angels and He will gather (episunaξei; 3rd person singular) the Elect from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven". Then the angels (episunaξousin; 3rd person plural) will gather these Elect out of the 4 winds from one end of heaven to the other". Matt.24:31. Please be accurate in quoting Scripture. This requires a knowledge of the original Greek text!

You not only failed to quote I Thess.4:15 about the time for the Rapture; but you have refused to acknowledge Mark 13:27 where Jesus "sends the angels and only HE gathers the elect from earth to heaven”.

Yes, “Matthew and Mark must agree and not contradict Revelation 7”. But, unless they are Post-Trib Jews to suit your assumptions, you have failed to agree that Jesus “gathers the elect from earth’s extremities to heaven’s extremities according to Mark (singular person and only a singular heaven) and then the angels gather them from all extremities of the heavens” (plural persons and plural heavens) to meet Him in the air per Matt.24:31.

If you do not apologize for accusing me of misquoting Mark 13:27, I refuse continued exchanges. There is an acceptable etiquette that calls for not making unproveable charges. As I have been guilty of doing so with you, by referring to your "false teaching", I too will desist. I'm sorry! It’s a bad habit for any of us.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:

 

[Ed Edwards]

Mel Miller:
//The great tribulation period (GT) is NOT the period of God's wrath!
No believer during the great tribulation will suffer God's wrath.///

Your two statements contradict each other.

True: No believer during the great tribulation will suffer God's wrath
False: The great tribulation period (GT) is NOT the period of God's wrath!

The truth of the one statement shows the falseness
of the second statement.
The Great Tribulation Period (AKA: WRATH OF GOD)
are the same period of time.
Not all Tribulation will come to all people in
the Great Tribulation Period.
Not all Wrath of God will come to all people
in the Great Tribulation Period.

Jesus says:
Mat 24:21-22 For then shall be great tribulation,
such as was not since the beginning
of the world to this time, no, nor euer shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those dayes should
be shortned, there should no flesh be saued:
but for the elects sake, those dayes shall be shortned.

This great tribulation period will be the Wrath of
God poured out UNDILUTED.
In 70AD 1/3 of the Jews in Judea were slain by
the sword, 1/3 sold into slavery. The Wrath of
God will be WORSE.

In the early 1300s in Europe 25 million people
1/3 to 1/4 of Europe's people were slain by
the Black Plague -- the WRATH OF GOD will
be worse than that.

In the 1940s Hitler's Germany killed 6 to 13 million
Jews (probably 1/3 of all Jews worldwide).
The Great Tribulation Period will be WORSE.

Jesus's Messanic, Christian people will NOT go
through THE WRATH OF GOD.
They will be GONE for THE WRATH OF GOD.

1Th 5:9 (KJV1611 Edition):
For God hath not appointed vs to wrath:
but to obtaine saluation by our Lord Iesus Christ,

Rev 14:9-10 (KJV1611 Edition):
And the third Angel followed them, saying
with a lowd voice, If any man worship the beast
and his image, and receiue his marke in his forehead,
or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drinke
of the wine of the wrath of God, which is powred out without mixture into the cup of his indignation, and hee shall be tormented with fire and brimstone, in the presence of the holy Angels, and in the presence of the Lambe:

Christian Messanics will never take the mark
nor tast the UNDILUTED WRATH OF GOD -
they will be GONE before the Great Tribulation.

 

[Mel Miller]

Ed Edwards,

So you claim the great tribulation is a time of God’s wrath. The scripture you
immediately gave to support this claim was Matt.24:21-22. It only mentions
“great tribulation”; but God’s wrath is much WORSE than the great tribulation.

You then made my day with the QUOTE that identifies the targets of God’s wrath
AFTER the great tribulation. God’s anger-filled-wrath occurs AFTER the GT!!!!!
QUOTE:_______________________________________________________
“This great tribulation period will be the Wrath of God poured out UNDILUTED. Rev.14:10. The same shall drinke of the wine of the wrath of God, which is powred out without mixture into the cup of his indignation, and hee shall be tormented with fire and brimstone, in the presence of the holy Angels, and in the presence of the Lambe”!

[“Amen Brother"; but ONLY because it occurs AFTER the GT!!!!]
______________________________________________________________

That is the scripture proving God’s wrath is meant only for those who worship the beast until up to 3½ days AFTER the GT. God’s wrath comes to destroy His enemies; not to cast fear into the Saints. But you try to make it the basis upon which Trib-Saints will be here during God’s wrath!!!! For if the great tribulation is a time of God’s wrath, as you assume, then you are suggesting Trib-Saints will be left on earth during His wrath.

Thanks for actually identifying those who will become subjects of God’s wrath!
They will be guilty of taking the mark of the Beast. No believer will ever take that
mark. Rev.13:8; Rev.17:8. So I am amazed that you think believers may be on earth at the time of God’s wrath. Subjects of Satan’s wrath, Yes; but of God’s wrath, NO! You even quoted I Thess.5:9: “We are not appointed to wrath”!!!

Have you considered that Trib-Saints will NOT be on the earth during God’s wrath? When God’s anger “mixes with wrath” AFTER the Last Plague empties in the air on the last day … Christ delivers the Saints from Satan’s wrath and destroys beast-worshipers while the tribes of earth “mourn and beg to escape all these things on that day”!!! Matt.24:30; Luke 21:36.

Surely you know His “anger” must first “mix full strength with His wrath before that mixture “pours out on beast worshipers”. Rev.14:10-12; Rev.16:19-21.You will find that “anger and wrath pours out” after the Last Plague and after the final fall of Babylon and that Saints rejoice in heaven over Babylon’s fall just moments before Christ comes to execute “anger and wrath” on those gathered to Armageddon and then casts Satan into the Abyss. Rev.19:1-3, 15-21; Rev.20:1-3.

Ed, I am concerned that you would even suggest a Believer may be left on earth during God’s wrath AFTER the great tribulation! Jesus taught that we must suffer tribulation and did NOT “pray that we should be taken out of the world”. Paul taught we must “suffer much tribulation upon entering the kingdom of God”. But you admitted he also taught that “we are not appointed to His wrath”! Jno.17:15; Acts 14:22; I Thess.5:9.

Until you can find any reference to Believers suffering God’s “anger and wrath”
I submit you have no right to “scare” Believers into thinking the great tribulation will be a time of God’s wrath instead of only a time of His extended patience (anger). “The Plagues had completed (exhausted) God’s anger” (The New Jerusalem Bible). John used the aorist indicative to show the Plagues had already exhausted His anger and that His anger-induced-wrath pours out ONLY after the Last Vial
was emptied into the air. Rev.15:1; Rev.16:19.

God’s anger fills the Plagues. But the wicked could still repent if they would. Rev.16:9-11. His “great anger” (mega-thumos) appears at the reaping of the wicked in Rev.14:19. His "anger plus wrath" are anticipated in Rev.14:10 and Rev.14:20. But the execution of that anger plus wrath awaits the single HOUR when Christ “delivers us from tribulation and takes vengeance on those who reject the Gospel”. 2 Thess.1:7-10.

Accept it, my friend, and encourage Believers, everyone of whom “will love NOT their life unto death” during the great tribulation … as “many are purged or purified and refined so as to show they are worthy and that they will not be ashamed at His Presence”. Rev.12:10-11; Dan.12:10-11; Mark 8:38; I Thess.3:13.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :thumbs:

 

[ituttut]

Ituttut,

You have accused me of “misquoting” Mark 13:27. I resent the implication of this charge!!!! It is one thing to misquote scripture and another to misinterpret it!!

In your scripture reference you say He will gather. Mark 13:27 does not say that. It says His angles will gather. This is the reason for my language.

In your last post, you omit words from the Rapture passage in I Thess.4 that determine the “time-frame” for the Raspture. Here is what you wrote:

Quote:
__________________________________________________ _____________________
Mel, let's take another look, understanding the time frame that Paul speaks of - I Thess 4:14 and 17. Verse 14: "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him." Verse 17: "Then we which are alive and remain….." What you are saying is impossible. You are saying Paul is living after the great tribulation.

Can you see where you problem lays Mel? How did the Martyrs who "die in the Lord" in Rev. 14:13 die before Paul? Paul had been dead for 30 years before God allowed John to write the book of Revelation.
__________________________________________________ ______________________

You skipped verse 15 by jumping from verse 14 to 17. Here are the holy words that you omit in order to establish a wrong time-frame for the Rapture: “For this we say to you by a word of the Lord, that WE - THE ONES LIVING AND REMAINING UNTIL THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD - BY NO MEANS MAY PRECEDE THE ONES HAVING SLEPT”!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My post said I Thess. 4:13-14, and then to 17, for Paul doesn't wish us to remain ignorant and verses 14 and 17 tell the story. But lets just quote all in hopes you can see your error. This is verses 13 to the end of the chapter. This is all New and very difficult on those first Christians. Thessalonians looks to be the first Epistles written by Paul, and evidently those of Thessalonica would be considered "babes" in Christ. We see Paul even has to write them again to quit worrying about going through the tribulation. He asks them if they don't remember he explained this to them before. Paul says we are not to be shaken in mind for our Lord Jesus Christ will gather us unto Him.

13." I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope." Here Paul is trying to tell us something about those we know that have died.

14. "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him." Those in the Body of Christ that sleep that we know, God will bring with Him.

15. " For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep." These are now the Words of our Lord Jesus Christ in verses 15, 16 and 17. Let's be quite, and concentrate to see what Our Lord Jesus Christ is saying to us. We do not prevent those that are asleep in Christ from coming, just because we are alive.

16. " For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:" Christ told Paul, I, the Lord will (not my angels, but I) will descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of the archangel, and also with the trump of God. The dead will rise before those that are alive. He can do this. Remember when he cried out "with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth in John 11:43? Is this not the same thing? We must believe the Power of God. He speaks and it is done.

17. "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." Them, Mel and ituttut, being alive at that time will be caught up to the clouds where those just shortly before arrived. And there is where we will meet our Lord Christ Jesus; there up in the air. We will forever be with the Lord.

18. "Wherefore comfort one another with these words." Mel I find this very comforting that we will not have to go through the great tribulation that is to come after we are gone.

The problem of interpretation is not mine as you assume, dear friend, because those who “sleep in Jesus” continue to die UNTIL HE COMES IN GLORY. It is UNTIL HIS PRESENCE, not until a Pre-Trib Rapture that sets the time-frame for “WE (Paul as well) who will be caught up to meet the Lord at His PRESENCE”.

But Mel you cannot find that in the verses quoted above. This is the "rapture", and those who "slept in Jesus" are raised and we who are alive are caught up to Him. Those that later die in the tribulation are not "in the Body of Christ". If they were they would be with Him in the air, not some In Him left to die, and then Jesus goes through that again of raising some more dead, and then taking some more that are alive. At the Rapture the BODY OF CHRIST CHURCH will be full. As revelation shows He has made other arrangements for those that die in the great tribulation.

Our being "caught up to Him in the Air" is not prophesied. If you believe Paul, you believe Christ Jesus. He says this subject, plus others were hidden by God from those before, so they could not prophecy of what was not known.

Too Large for program. Will continue

 

[ituttut]

Continued to Mel Miller

Now, from my experience with your responses, I do not think you will admit error! You have already determined my interpretation is “impossible”. Yet you have omitted the very words that determine the Rapture occurs only AT THE PRESENCE OF CHRIST HIMSELF.

He taught that His COMING and His PRESENCE will occur “AFTER the great tribulation”. Matt.24:27 - Presence; parousia; Matt.24:30 – Coming; erchomai. I will appreciate your not continuing to insult anyone's understanding by claiming Paul referred to a “word of the Lord that His Presence refers to a Pre-Trib Rapture”. If you insist on this method of refutation, I conclude that you continue to avoid the issue as you have done with Mark 13:27.

Your Scribe approach has clouded your thinking, as it did those Scribe's and Pharisees of the Jew's. They didn't know their Messiah when they saw Him. We in the Body of Christ will, for He knows us, and will come for us before anti-christ appears to do his will, and He (Christ Jesus) deals again with His nation in His wrath.

Do you think you are one of the 144,000? If you are 100 per cent of Jewish descent, and pure of heart, then you could be one of those chosen. Otherwise plan on a hair-raising experience never before seen, and began praying "Our Father which art in Heaven………."

You are “hung up” on the assumption that those “dying in the Lord” during great tribulation cannot be included with those who die prior to the PRESENCE of the Lord!!!

Here again it is a matter of believing Christ Jesus did speak to Paul informing of things never before known to man. We are told we are not all in the same place in His Body. I will not be where David is, and I won't be where those of the tribulation will be in His Body. We are placed where He wants us. We don't do the choosing in this matter. If we will just listen to Him, He tells us we will forever be with Him. Are all the others from the beginning to the end told this?

The PROOF of your assumption is that you say Paul would have had to “live until after the great tribulation” in order to fulfill MY time-frame for the Rapture!

What John wrote in Revelation agrees with what Paul wrote and Jesus taught. In order for “ALL the saints to come with Jesus at His PRESENCE,” I Thess.3:13, as Paul wrote, “the Endtime called, elect and faithful must accompany the Lamb from heaven”, as John wrote in Rev.17:14, and “every believer must be raised up on the last day” as Jesus Himself taught! “Every believer” includes Apostle Paul.

You are correct in your understanding of His Presence. The fact that the word parousia in I Thess 3:13
refers to His "presence" with all His saints. This tells us what we have been told before, those dead raptured will be with Him as we meet Him in the air. Please notice we see no reference to "angels" rounding us up.

Here is how you charge me with misquoting Mark 13:27 INSTEAD of showing
me how it should have been quoted:

I wrote that your next Quote is false: __________________________________________________ _____________
Ituttut: "The Mark 13:27 reference speaks of Angels doing the gathering".
____________________________________ __________________________
My response which you failed to acknowledge:
You should have said the Matt.24:31 reference speaks of Angels completing the gathering that Jesus Himself starts in Mark 13:27. "The Son of Man will send (apostelei; 3rd person singular) the angels and He will gather (episunaξei; 3rd person singular) the Elect from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven". Then the angels (episunaξousin; 3rd person plural) will gather these Elect out of the 4 winds from one end of heaven to the other". Matt.24:31. Please be accurate in quoting Scripture. This requires a knowledge of the original Greek text!

And my answer is you must be wrong Mel. You force contradiction. Matthew and Mark references must say the say thing. In not understanding Mark you are saying Matthew is wrong. Matthew 24:31 says He will send His angels and they will do the gathering. Mark 13:27 must agree, but you have inserted He, and this changes the meaning of scripture, forcing conflicting ideas. Both of these must agree, or you are saying the Holy Spirit contradicts, which He does not.

The third person singular sends the angels, and they (third person plural) do the gathering. Don't you see the fallacy of you misuse of scripture? You have Christ Jesus rounding up everybody he wants. But from your view He is not able to do this so He decides then to send His angels.

You not only failed to quote I Thess.4:15 about the time for the Rapture; but you have refused to acknowledge Mark 13:27 where Jesus "sends the angels and only HE gathers the elect from earth to heaven”.

See above to help in understanding the "rapture" and the "tribulation".

Yes, “Matthew and Mark must agree and not contradict Revelation 7”. But, unless they are Post-Trib Jews to suit your assumptions, you have failed to agree that Jesus “gathers the elect from earth’s extremities to heaven’s extremities according to Mark (singular person and only a singular heaven) and then the angels gather them from all extremities of the heavens” (plural persons and plural heavens) to meet Him in the air per Matt.24:31.

See correct view above, so as to have scripture prove scripture.

If you do not apologize for accusing me of misquoting Mark 13:27, I refuse continued exchanges. There is an acceptable etiquette that calls for not making unproveable charges. As I have been guilty of doing so with you, by referring to your "false teaching", I too will desist. I'm sorry! It’s a bad habit for any of us.

I appreciate what you have said, and I can understand why you say I have a "false teaching", for it differs from yours. I understand this and can take the heat. I apologize to you for a poor choice of a word, without softening for I did not detect you level of sensitivity. But in honesty and to stand for His Word, I see you evidently misunderstand Mark, and in so doing have changed the meaning of the verse. That in turn then puts you in the position of not believing Matthew, or inferring Jesus made two statements on the subject, and they do not agree. I have to leave it at that for Jesus did not say two different things on the same subject.

 

[Mel Miller]

Ituttut,

Quote:
_____________________________________________________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mel Miller
Ituttut,

You have accused me of “misquoting” Mark 13:27. I resent the implication of this charge!!!! It is one thing to misquote scripture and another to misinterpret it!!



You wrote:
In your (Mel's) scripture reference you say He will gather. Mark 13:27 does not say that. It says His angles will gather. This is the reason for my language.
_______________________________________________________

Obviously, you do not know the difference between the Greek third person SINGULAR and the Greek third person PLURAL.

For the third time I will quote the words that prove "HE (Jesus) will send
the angels and HE will gather the Elect from earth to heaven".

QUOTE:
______________________________________________________
Ituttut: The Mark 13:27 reference speaks of Angels doing the gathering.
________________________________ __________________________
My response which you TWICE failed to acknowledge:
You should have said the Matt.24:31 reference speaks of Angels completing the gathering that Jesus Himself starts in Mark 13:27. "The Son of Man will send (apostelei; 3rd person singular) the angels and He will gather (episunaξei; 3rd person singular) the Elect from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven". Then the angels (episunaξousin; 3rd person plural) will gather these Elect out of the 4 winds from one end of heaven to the other". Matt.24:31. Please be accurate in quoting Scripture. This requires a knowledge of the original Greek text!


When a Greek verb ends in "ei", it is always third person SINGULAR.
No wonder you refuse to apologize. Why do you claim to know the Greek? Do you refuse to acknowledge truth because of your often
repeated conviction that the Elect are only the JEWS?

I'm sorry, but I have no confidence in your claim to know the Greek . :wavey:

 

[Mel Miller]

Ituttut,

You have proved my point that Jesus will not only "raise up every believer
on the last day from the graves ... but that He will personally gather us from all the extremities of earth to all the extremities of heaven.

16. " For the Lord himself (YES, THE LORD HIMSELF) shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:" Christ told Paul, I, the Lord will (not my angels, but I) (So why do you deny it?) will descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of the archangel, and also with the trump of God. The dead will rise before those that are alive. He can do this. Remember when he cried out "with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth in John 11:43? Is this not the same thing? We must believe the Power of God. He speaks and it is done.

What only Jesus can do for those who "sleep in Jesus" (including the
great tribulation martyrs) He will also do for those who survive to the end!
My friend, believe it and be no longer confused! :wavey: