End Times

[Mel Miller]

Ed Edwards,

As usual, your rhetoric contradicts that Jesus said what He meant and
meant what He said. The DAY and HOUR He comes is a 12-HOUR DAY!!
Quote:
___________________________________________________________
"One such rapture/resurrection will be before the Tribulation Period (3½-years of Wrath Lite), another resurrection /of the 2 witnesses anyway/
at the middle of the Tribulaion Period and before the start of the Great Tribulation Period (Wrath Heavy). A final resurrection of the Just at the
coming of Jesus to destroy the Antichrist /and rescue the reminants of humans from total destruction/".
___________________________________________________________

Your rhetoric denies that Jesus will "raise up ALL believers on the last
day and that He will gather the elect from earth to heaven (singular) out of the four winds" and then from the same four winds, "the angels will gather these same elect from all extremities of the heavenS" (plural).

THERE'S NO WAY YOU CAN MAINTAIN YOUR EXTRAPOLATION OF TWO RAPTURES OUT OF THE WORDS OF JESUS, ONE BEFORE THE GREAT TRIBULATION AND ONE AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION, from Mark
13:24-27 and Matt.24:29-31. This is a two-stage rapture of ALL Saints.

The plain meaning of Jesus and Paul is that "God will bring the souls of the great tribulation martyrs with Jesus" on ONE of the 3 1/2 days after the great tribulation. I Thess.4:13-14; I Thess.3:13; Matt.24:36.

Instead you make the word HOUR = a Day, a Month and/or a Year to suit your fancy. Jesus and Paul are explicit, not duplicitous (deceitful), in their message of HOPE for ALL believers, i.e., those who "must be killed" as well as all who SURVIVE to the End. Rev.6:11; Rev.2:26. That's the reason for Paul's "comfort to those who live and remain until the PRESENCE of the Lord". I Thess.4:18. This COMFORT is for Tribulation Saints!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why, my friend, do you continue to resist the word of the Lord? When will you submit to the word of the Lord that DAY means DAY; not a YEAR????
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:

 

[Ed Edwards]

Caveat: I agree with Brother Mel Miller's eschatology like 92%
(which is an 'A' in over half of the schools).
However, I agree with Brother Ituttut's eschatology like 98%.

Mel Miller: //As usual, your rhetoric contradicts that Jesus
said what He meant and
meant what He said. The DAY and HOUR He comes is a 12-HOUR DAY!!//

Again, you cannot take the moral high ground using your
12-hour day montra, no matter how many times you chant it.
Again, you cannot take the moral high ground claiming your
understanding of what Christ meant
by 'day' is superior to my understanding of
what Christ meant by 'day'.
You can't even convince anybody that your '12-hour day'
is correct without:

1. providing your own arguments that the '12-hour day'
is meant by 'Day of the Lord' (or some other 'day').

2. refuting my arguments that 'day' means 'the appropriate time'.

BTW, the day in which Jesus comes with the horsemen
(Revelation 19:14, right after the Wedding Supper of the
Lamb earlier in Rev 19) to destroy the Antichrist and
the works of the Antichrist and to set up a physical
millinnilal Messanic Kingdom, that day very likely is
12-hours long. Prove that it is the one and only unique
'Day of the Lord'.

2 Peter 3:8-10 talks about a 1,000 year long 'day of the Lord';
Revelation 20 talks about 1,000 years between resurrections;
it appears to me a safe assumption to assume that these two
periods are one. (Many a-mills think the world ends the
very 12-hour day that Jesus returns in triumph???)
Note that a 1,000 year long 'day of the Lord' is NOT THE SAME
as a 12-hour 'day of the Lord'.

BTW, there is also a 7-year-long, 70th 'week' of Danial
which is also called 'the day of the Lord'.
Then for good sport we have 'day of Christ' and 'day of God' and
'day of judgement.


Mel Miller: //THERE'S NO WAY YOU CAN MAINTAIN YOUR EXTRAPOLATION
OF TWO RAPTURES OUT OF THE WORDS OF JESUS,
ONE BEFORE THE GREAT TRIBULATION AND ONE AFTER
THE GREAT TRIBULATION, from Mark 13:24-27 and Matt.24:29-31.//

You are exactly Correct. I need the rest of the Bible
for I let the Bible interperet the fuzzy passages.
For example, in Matthew 24:3 the disciples ask Jesus
three questions (only two of them are in Mark):

1. when will the temple be destroyed?
2. what is the sign of the Second Coming of Jesus?
3. what is the sign of the end of the age?

Jesus answers the questions of the disciples
in the order asked (which isn't the same as the order
in which events occur)

 

[ituttut]

Ituttut,

18. "Wherefore comfort one another with these words." Mel I find this very comforting that we will not have to go through the great tribulation that is to come after we are gone.

Where does Paul state that believers do not have to go through the great
tribulation? He taught that we must suffer "much tribulation". :wavey:

I Thessalonians 3:4, "For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know." We are to distinguish the trials and tribulations we go through now, and that of the "great tribulation" to come. There is no comparison of the two. That tribulation Paul spoke of here had come and gone, and there would be more as time went on. Nowhere does Paul indicate we will go through the tribulation period. In fact He tells we will not go through that period of the "great tribulation".

In II Thessalonians 1:4-6, Paul again tells them of on going tribulation as they live - "So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5.Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6. Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;"

Now please look and understand what Paul says in verse 7 below as he finishes the thought of those that trouble them. Those that trouble them keep telling they will go through the "great tribulation", and Paul says for the second time they will not. Verse 7, "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels." He tells them to come rest (quit worrying about the false teachers), for we will be at ease when He is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels. This is the "second coming" of Jesus Christ to this earth with His angels that we have been talking about. We are not on earth when this happens for we were "caught up" into the air to meet Him (not His angles) before anti-christ is identified in the tribulation period.

 

[ituttut]

Ituttut,

Your following words are more accusatory than any I have ever received:

Quote:

"And my answer is you must be wrong Mel. You force contradiction.

Matthew and Mark references must say the say thing. In not understanding Mark you are saying Matthew is wrong. Matthew 24:31 says He will send His angels and they will do the gathering. Mark 13:27 must agree, but you have inserted He, and this changes the meaning of scripture, forcing conflicting ideas. Both of these must agree, or you are saying the Holy Spirit contradicts, which He does not.

The third person singular sends the angels, and they (third person plural) do the gathering. Don't you see the fallacy of you misuse of scripture? You have Christ Jesus rounding up everybody he wants. But from your view He is not able to do this so He decides then to send His angels.
_____________________________________________________________

Why do you claim Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 must say the same
thing? Who "gathers the elect from the earth"? Who gathers them from
all the extremities of the heavens? Do you think Jesus was unaware that the Elect of Mark 13:27 are the same elect of Matt.24:31?!

The problem is who does the gathering.

If I have indeed made Jesus and Mark contradict Matthew, as you charge, how do you know the Elect are Jews only? Jesus did not say they are Jews only!!

Would Jesus have "Elect Dogs" in mind to mingle at that time with "His Elect People"? Outside of this dispensation we now live in, the "Elect" are Israel".

How can you keep claiming the one "taken" refers to a Pre-Trib gathering when Jesus states the one is taken "after the great tribulation"? In your
scheme, you ADD that the "one taken" occurs before the tribulation!!!

Easy. It is what scripture indicates
[/quote]

How can you claim I inserted "HE" in Mark 13:27 when Jesus alone stated that "HE WILL SEND THE ANGELS AND HE WILL GATHER THE ELECT"?

Please quote the verse from an approved an acknowledged correct Bible by all of Christendom, where Mark 13:27 reads "and He shall gather". The correct rendering is He will send His Angels to do the gathering.

Mel:I consider your rejection of the word of the Lord most unworthy ... by not once explaining why He mentioned three times over that He came to do "His Father's will by not losing a single believer and by raising up every believer, all believers, ON THE LAST DAY". John 6:38-40.


ituttut: I explained this to you and you do not believe scripture. Does He not say He lost one? John 17:12, "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." Why will you not believe scripture? God the Father gave Him, but the doomed one was lost. In the Father's name He kept (not His name) them but for one, which the Father had doomed. He did not argue with His Father over this matter.

 

[ituttut]

End Times

Ituttut and Ed Suttton,

Quote:
__________________________________________________ ___________
"Scripture teaches all will be resurrected, but not all at the same time".
This from Ituttut

"Since this ridiculous format does not like to see merely, "Amen!" I'll have to do this, here".
This from Ed Sutton
__________________________________________________ ___________

I take it that Ituttut (IT) here denies that "all believers in their graves will be raised up on the last day" ... a deliberate denial of the word of the Lord since all believers who "die in the Lord" include tribulation martyrs! Rev.14:13.

Since ES quotes just the words of IT, I take it that Ed Sutton here appoves of IT's denial with an "Amen" that also disapproves of the format as "ridiculous". Ed, are you in approval of IT's statement and what do you mean by the format being "ridiculous"?

If you were referring to Ed Edward's format as "ridiculous", it's more ridiculous than IT's attempt to seek to explain that Jesus did NOT mean what He said about the Day of God's Wrath being a single 12-HOUR DAY with the "sun turning dark at noon"!

My main point, the one that EE and IT refuse to accept is that the DAY of the Lord is a single 12-Hour Day ... NO MORE THAN 12 HOURS; BUT COULD BE LESS THAN 12-HOURS in being fulfilled since the "sun will turn dark at noon and the light will return at twilight ... on the Day Christ comes with ALL, YES ALL, the Saints AT HIS PRESENCE"!! Amos 8:9; Zech.14:5-7;
I Thess.3:13.

Mel I believe you will find God defines for us what constitutes a Day. In a Day there is 12 hours of light, and 12 hours of night. A night and a day adds up to a 24 hour Day. Can this be true? God says it is so, and that is what we must base a Day upon, viz. there are 24 hours in a Day. Proof? Genesis 1:5, "And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day." So if you continue in your present understanding, you will know it is your understanding, and not God's.

IT's insistance that Amos 8:9 refers to the darkness from 12 to 3 at the Cross is an unholy attempt to divert from the truth that ALL believers will
be brought from heaven AND/OR raised up together from the earth to meet the Lord in the air! IT's refusal to accept the word of Christ and Paul that "God will bring the souls of ALL those WITH JESUS who die in the LORD" IS A TOTAL DENIAL OF THE WORD OF GOD!!! I Thess.4:13-14.

How can you deny Luke 23:44-45 lines up with Amos 8:9?

 

[ituttut]

Ituttut,

Today, post #175, you confess the astounding refusal to acknowledge the truth of the very words of Jesus after I quoted them three times:
Quote:
__________________________________________________ __________
I'm sorry to say you inject the wrong pronoun accusing Jesus of saying two different things. Give it up Mel for no authoritative Bible translation gives credence to your wrong position.
__________________________________________________ __________

First, Jesus DID say two different things:

1. He will send the angels and "HE will gather the elect from earth..."
2. The angels will "gather the elect from extremities of the heavens..."

You asserted that Jesus in Matt.24:31 said the identical same thing that He said in Mark 13:27.

Instead of only charging me with error, will you please answer two ?s:

1. If episunaxei does NOT mean "He will gather together", what does it mean?

Episunaxei touß eklektouß autou means what it says, which is "Shall gather together his elect - not He will gather together. Who will gather? The same as those in Matthew 24:31, it is they (angels) that gather, for if not contradiction is present. Again show me an allowed Bible that inserts He in Mark 13:27 to do the gathering. No translator would dare do that for that would be changing the word of God.

2. What was the "identical" thing that He said in both texts?

He sends his angels, and they will gather. This is in perfect harmony with all of scripture

 

[Ed Edwards]

Nobody ever seems to argue aganist the thousands of facts
contained in the following summary:

---------------------------------------

The Five Tribulations
of the Holy Bible
Contrasted and compared
by ed

The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
tribulation: tribulation, distress, afliction, trouble

1. tribulation due to the human condition
WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adam & Eve
WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointements,
affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
anguish, torment, adversity,
travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
WHEN: From Adam's explusion from the Garden of Eden
to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?

2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millinnial kingdom of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
gift of martyrdom

3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
WHO: Yisrael dispersed among the goy
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
(from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus

4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
(AKA: Wrath of the Lamb /Revelation 6:17/ )
WHO: citizens of the world
WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist
WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
WHAT: the wrath of God
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

Note that #1, #2, and #3 are measured in travail units;
#4 and #5 are measured in time units.

Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
Period found in the O.T.:

The tribulation in Deut 4:30
the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
The year of recompence in Isaiah 34:8
The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:

*what about 'day of the Lord' in some usages?*

 

[Mel Miller]

Ituttut,

Jesus said "He" will do two things and the angels will do a 3rd thing:

1. He will send the angels (single personal act). Mark 13:27.
2. And gather the elect from earth to heaven (one direction; upward).

3. The angels will gather the elect from the heavenS (all directions; Matt.24:31).

This gathering will include the matryed great tribulation souls coming from the 3rd heaven to join their bodies resurrected by Jesus AND also those who survive as Jesus raptures them from the earth ... "after the great tribulation".

You have admitted that ONLY Jesus both raises up and catches the Saints from the earth. Please stick with the truth when it comes directly
from the lips of Jesus Himself.

The only identical thing that both texts of Matt.24:31 and Mark 13:27 state is that Jesus "sends the angels and that the elect are gathered out of the four winds". But it takes both texts to understand what happens at the LAST TRUMP ... Only Jesus has the knowledge and power to raise the dead Martyrs of the great tribulation at the "great trumpet of God" !!!!

Jesus "gathers the elect from the earth and the angels gather them
from the heavens". This constitutes two phases of the same gathering.
But you deny the rapture of ALL the saints occurs "in the days after great tribulation"!! So you can't honestly accept the words of Jesus.

Finally, your rejection of the Day of Wrath on which Christ comes because it is a "24-Hour-Day" rather than a single 12-Hour-Day makes my day ... it was most humerous!
Seriously, I'm praying for your reception of the truth. raying: raying:

Since we clash at an irreversible impasse, thank's for your stoical input.
I don't need to respond to EE as he puts 98 percent confidence in You !!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :thumbsup:

 

[mnw]

I know I'm into this kind of late, and I am remarking on something from several pages ago, but I did want to comment on this one thing.

Straight out of the Thomas Ice playbook. So apostasia means lift up or rapture?

Many good and godly men interpret II Thessalonians 2:3 as speaking of an apostasy but there is an alternative interpretation also held by men of repute.

This verse tells us that before the anti-christ is revealed and therefore before the Tribulation a “falling away” would take place. Paul is here writing and encouraging the believers to have hope that they would not fear the tribulation period. It would make sense that Paul would promise them deliverance via the rapture rather speaking of an apostasy.

Another reason for seeing the rapture in this verse and not an apostasy is because of the language used. The word translated “falling away” is hee apostasia and from it we derive the word apostasy. Taking into account the verb in Greek from which this noun takes its meaning, aphisteemi, we can understand the word to mean to remove, put away or cause to be removed.

Of the fifteen occurrences of this word in the New Testament eleven refer to a departure rather than a religious revolt.

Dr. Boreland in “Some Golden Day Break” writes, “Many of the older translators followed this line, translating apostasy ‘departure’. William Tyndale’s version of the New Testament, published in 1526 renders hee apostasia as ‘a departure.’ Coverdale, Cranmer and the Geneva Bible which followed Tyndale’s translation have the same rendering, and Beza, in 1565 translates apostasia ‘departing.’”

Seeing as Tyndale and others used the Greek word as a departure it would seem fair to say the potential for this translation and interpretation pre-date Thomas Ice.

 

[mojoala]

Those who "survive to the end
will rule over the nations".

This one never made sense. Who is there to rule over? When all is said an done, There will be the church and nobody else, because the nobody else is in hell. So what nations are there. The nations are empty if all of the Christians are ruling and all of the non-christians are in hell.

 

[mojoala]

What in the hell is a travail unit? Is this a new Doctrinal Word?:laugh:

 

[Mel Miller]

mnw,

It is obvious you have taken the word of someone who is incorrect:

Quote:
____________________________________________________________
"Of the fifteen occurrences of this word in the New Testament eleven refer to a departure rather than a religious revolt".
____________________________________________________________

Your quote does NOT concern 15 uses of Apostasia in the N.T.; but only of two uses of Strong's #646. There are also three uses of #647 in the N.T. There are also five occurrences of #646 and four of #647 in the O.T.

Consider how these two words are translated in the NKJV:

In the N.T. #646 is found, other than 2 Thess.2:3, only in Acts 21:21 where it refers to those who "FORSOOK" Moses' teaching. In the case
of Strong's #647, the word is used for "repudiation and DIVORCE." Matt.5:31; Matt.19:7; and Mark 10:4.

In the O.T. #646 is used five times as follows:

1. Josh.22:22 - REBELLION and treachery against the Lord God.
2. 2 Chron.29:19 - TRANSGRESSION of Ahaz.
3. 2 Chron.33:19 - TRESPASS of Manasseh.
4. Jer.2:19 - Israel's BACKSLIDING showing they FORSOOK God.
5. Jer.36:32 - Refers to sin of Jehoiakim who burned God's word.

In the O.T. #647 is used four times as follows:

1-2. Deut.24:1,3 - Certificate of DIVORCE.
3. Isa.50:1 - Bill of DIVORCE by God against Israel.
4. Jer.3:8 - Bill of DIVORCE to BACKSLIDING Israel for Adultery.

mnw,

You even failed to give scriptural evidence for a quote that falsely attributes 15 cases of apostasia in the New Testament. Other than 2 Thess.2:3, Acts 21:21, the only other use of Apostasia (#646), the true meaning of the word refers to a "FORSAKING" of truth taught by Moses.

God will remove ("take out of our midst") the FALSE Church - Mystery, Babylon the Great. The FALSE Church will be removed for DEPARTURE from the truth and for FORNICATION while the TRUE Church will be "kept from the HOUR of Trial on the Day of God's and the Lamb's wrath ... the Hour that comes suddenly, as a snare, on all the inhabitants on all the face of all the earth"! Rev.3:10-11; Luke 21:34-35.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:

 

[ituttut]

Strange, a whole discussion showing none of us knows all
about what 'in the name of Jesus' means.

The angels harvest souls, it is done
'in the name of Jesus' -- that is on the behalf of
Messiah Jesus and under the authority of Messiah Jesus.
The price of leadership is such that the leader is
responsible for what the underlings do.
So if the angels physically harvest souls or if
the Lord Jesus personally/physically harvests souls,
the situation is the same - Messiah Jesus is the
responsible party. 'Lord' means the boss, the responsible
leader.

I to am a man under authority. When I do something
'in the name of' of my authority, I make real sure
that what I do is exactly what my authority would do,
for what I do will be counted as though that authority
did it.

Ituttut: //Scripture teaches all will be resurrected,
but not all at the same time.//

Amen, Brother Ituttut -- You are so RIGHT ON!!!

This discussion on the "End Times" with it's hundreds of inputs takes us into what is really important on how we today are to be "justified". So happy you agree on the point above, but know we don't agree in other points.

All is on His orders, and some are more personal than others. This is not that we in this dispensation are more important, but according to His purpose He planned this dispensation, before unknown to man, and we are to come to Him on His terms. I know as a Gentile, I am to believe the gospel of Paul, for he is my Apostle. So very many today try to reconcile the gospel as preached by James, and the gospel as preached by Paul and if they do I fear they of James, or of trying to reconcile both gospels could wind up going through the tribulation.

What was unknown? Was by faith unknown? By no means for James 2:23-24 reads "And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only". So we see that other gospel of those "justified by works and not by faith only"

What was unknown or hidden in God until after "Damascus Road"? Our justification through faith only, without our works for we come through his works, which was impossible until after the stoning of Steven. Why? Because the gospel was that of being "justified by works". That all changed after Damascus Road. Notice the similarity between the gospel presented by James and Paul, but they are different separated by a "gulf" created by God. They both start out the same Contrast James 23 above with Romans 4:3, "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." Then in verse 24 James says he is of the same gospel as all from Abel (Hebrews 11) through Abraham, David and all the rest. They are all "justified by works, and not by faith only.

That is not our gospel today. Yes it starts out the same, but the message has changed. Romans 4:22-25, "And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24. But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25. Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification." Thus we are able to understand what Christ Jesus revealed to Paul in Romans 3:30, "Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith". Righteousness is imputed to us of faith, just as to Abraham; He justified by faith, and we justified through faith.

 

[Mel Miller]

This one never made sense. Who is there to rule over? When all is said an done, There will be the church and nobody else, because the nobody else is in hell. So what nations are there. The nations are empty if all of the Christians are ruling and all of the non-christians are in hell.

This claim made by you, without scriptural support, deserves no response.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:

 

[mnw]

Mel, when I get the chance I'll look at my numbers again, in more detail than you have bothered so far. However, it does not change the fact that the word in question can refer to a departure of many kinds.

I agree a religious apostacy will take place, but that does not mean the passage under discussion HAS to refer to it.

BTW, it is late here, but how can you make reference to Greek words in the OT which was written in Hebrew? It is late, but I cannot see what you mean there.

 

[Mel Miller]

Ituttut,

Quote:
______________________________________________________________
They are all "justified by works, and not by faith only.

That is not our gospel today. Yes it starts out the same, but the message has changed. Romans 4:22-25, "And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
______________________________________________________________

What is our Gospel "TODAY"??
That question was settled by Paul: Justification before God is by grace thru faith, without works!! Apostle James did not dispute that doctrine.

There's nothing here to discuss that relates to the END TIME.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :thumbsup:

 

[Mel Miller]

Mel, when I get the chance I'll look at my numbers again, in more detail than you have bothered so far. However, it does not change the fact that the word in question can refer to a departure of many kinds.

I agree a religious apostacy will take place, but that does not mean the passage under discussion HAS to refer to it.

BTW, it is late here, but how can you make reference to Greek words in the OT which was written in Hebrew? It is late, but I cannot see what you mean there.

_____________________________________________________________
I was simply referring to the LXX, the Greek translation of the O. T. But
why did you fail to acknowledge that there are not 15 N. T. references?
Does that failure indicate you are also unwilling to acknowledge that every N.T. reference (as well as O.T. usage) refers to "departure" from truth or from unfaithfulness in the marriage relationship??

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :thumbsup:

 

[Ed Edwards]

Mnw: //I know I'm into this kind of late, and I am remarking
on something from several pages ago, but I did want to comment
on this one thing.//

Thank you brother Mnw. Feel welcome to add some new material.
Mel Miller, Ituttut, EdSutton (the other Ed) have been arguing,
uh, well, ah - 'debating' eschatology for years. I know I could
write Mel's posts for him, i've seen so many of them

I to have three passages that I use for the pretribulation
rapture which most pretribs don't use:

1. The 2 Thess 2:3 passage you cite.
In 2 Thess 2:1 the word 'and' for me seperates two
seperate sets of events (as opposed to two descriptions of the
same set of events). Speaking of the 'gathering' as one of
the two, a person would expect another
mention of the gathering. There is none, except for
FALLING AWAY in verse 3 (in older English BIbles 'departure').

2. I've been on computer bulleting boards for 22 years now
discussing eschatology.
About 18 years ago people where asking me: Why doesn't John
say something about the Pretribulation Rapture in the
book of Revelation.
He does. It is by type in Revelation 4:1.

3. About 6 years ago people were asking me: Why doesn't
Jesus say something about the Pretribulation Rapture?
He does. My preacher was pointing out that the 'and's
in Genesis one and the 'and's in Matthew 24 were
polysyndeton 'and's. I recall that my grade school
teacher told me:
And you are never, ever to start your sentence with
the word 'and'
So why is it done in the Bible?
I figure that those who wrote Matthew 24 in Greek didn't have
Microsoft Word so they couldn't put bullets.
So they used the polysyndeton 'kai' (Greek for 'and', 'but',
'then', etc.).
Letting the Bible explain the Bible, I figured that
Matthew 24:3, the three questions the disciples asked
Jesus were answered in Matthew 24:4-44 and the following parables
even in Matthew Chapter 25. This is my assumption, yet there
is good reason for it; why it is almost axiomatic!!!

Jesus answered the 3 questions in the order asked
(not in time sequence).

Here are the three questions,here the answer is, and
what the answer of Jesus was.
The polysendton 'and's give both the major outline
and the secondary outline.

A. When will the temple be destroyed?
-Matthew 24:4-14
-- soon. But these verses continue to be true
throughout the Church Age (Time of the Gentiles, Age of Grace, etc.)

B. What is the sign of the Second Coming of Jesus?
-Matthew 24:15-30
-- the Tribulation Period and the Great Tribulation Period

C. what is the sign of the end of the Age?
(here the KJVs put 'world' or Greek 'cosmos' where the
Greek actually says 'aeon' or English 'age')
-Matthew 24:31-44
-- there is no sign (note the same gathering as
mentioned in 2 Thess 2:1) the pretribulation appearing
of Jesus for the Church age Christian elect saints
is always ready to happen at any time - like a thief in the
night comes at an unknown time, so Jesus will come to get
us most anytime

Interesting, eh? I was pretrib before I saw these three
passages. Two of these insights involve the meaning
of the word 'and'. Other KEY WORDS involved in eschatology:

4. 'And' in Revelation 20:4 (two equal sets of saints
or two different sets of saints?)

5. 'First' in Revelation 20:6 (can the first resurreciton
be in multiple parts /yes/ or does FIRST mean
ONE AND ONLY ONE /no/?

6. 'Last' in 'last trumpet' in 1 Corinthians 15:52
(last trumpet for the church age? last trumpet for the
Tribulation Period? last trumpet for the world? etc.)

(note to my deaf firends: if the pretribulation
rapture happens while you are still alive, the
LAST trumpet will be the FIRST thing you hear with
your new body!)


I didn't get my eschatology from Thomas Ice, though
I guess I heard of him 10 years or so ago. I got my
eschatology from Paul (1 above), John (2 above), and
Jesus by Matthew (3 above)

 

[mojoala]

1 Thess. 4:16-17 - Paul writes that "we will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." Many UNSTABLE call this experience the "rapture" (even though the word "rapture" is not found in the Bible, although is derived from the Latin vulgate of this verse – “rapiemur”). John 14:3; 1 Cor. 15:52 - these are other passages that UNSTABLE use to support the rapture experience. The question UNSTABLE has raised is “when will the rapture occur?” They have developed three theories – (1) post-tribulation; (2) pre-tribulation; and, (3) mid-tribulation. We address these theories later on. But first, here is some more background.

Rev. 20:2-3; 7-8 – John sees the vision of an angel who seizes satan and binds him for a period of a thousand years. Protestants generally call this period of a thousand years the “millennium.” The “millennium” is a harbinger of the end of the world, and the theories of when the “rapture” will occur center around this period of time. We should also note that the “thousand years” language is part of apocalyptic literature and should not be interpreted literally. For example, in Psalm 50:10, we see the cattle on a "thousand hills." The word "thousand" here obviously means a lot of hills. In Dan. 7:10, a "thousand thousands" served him. Again, "thousand" means a lot. In 2 Peter 3:8, with God one day is a "thousand" years and a "thousand" years is one day. "Thousand" is symbolic for a long time. It is not to be taken literally.




There are three ways that UNSTABLE interpret the meaning of the thousand year “millennium” (and the interpretation leads to answering when they think the rapture will occur).

(1) Post-millennialism – this view interprets the “thousand years” as a very long time. This view also holds that God’s kingdom is being advanced in the world by His grace and the world will eventually be Christianized. Then Christ will return at the close of this period during a time of righteousness and peace. The problem with this view is that the Scriptures do not teach that the world will be even relatively Christianized before the Second Coming. For example, in Matt. 13:24-30;36-43, Jesus says the wicked and the righteous will co-exist until the end of the world, when they will be judged, and either inherit eternal life, or be thrown into eternal fire.

(2) Pre-millenialism (also called “millenarianism”) – like post-millennialists, this view also interprets the “thousand years” as a golden age on earth when the world will be Christianized. But they believe that this period will occur after Christ’s second coming, during which time Christ will reign physically on earth. They believe the Final Judgment occurs when the millennium is over. But Scripture does not teach that there is a thousand year span between the Second Coming and Final Judgment. Instead, Jesus said that when He comes a second time in glory, He will immediately repay every man for what he has done. Matt. 16:27. When Jesus comes, He will separate the sheep from the goats and render judgment. Matt. 25:31-46. There is nothing about any period of time between His coming and final judgment.

(3) Amillennialism – this view also interprets the “thousand years” symbolically, but, ulike the pre and post views, not as a golden age on earth. This view believes the millennium is the period of Christ’s rule in heaven and on earth through His Church. This is because the saints who reign with Christ and to whom judgment has been committed are said to be on their thrones in heaven. Rev. 20:4; cf. 4:4; 11:16. During this time, satan is bound and cannot hinder the spread of the gospel. Rev. 20:3. This is why, they explain, Jesus teaches the necessity of binding the “strong man” (satan) in order to plunder his house and rescue people from his grip. Matt. 12:29. This is also why, after the disciples preached the gospel and rejoiced that the demons were even subject to them, Jesus declared, “I saw satan fall like lightening from heaven.” Luke 10:18. Nevertheless, during this period, the world will not be entirely Christianized because satan, though bound, is still in some sense able to prowl around and attack souls. cf. 1 Peter 5:8. Of the three, this position is most consistent with JESUS teaching.

2 Thess. 2:1-4 – concerning the Second Coming of Christ, Scripture teaches (and most Protestants believe) that Christ’s coming will be preceded by a time of rebellion, lawlessness and persecution. Protestants often refer to this period as the “tribulation” (although the word “tribulation” cannot be found in the Scripture passages Protestants use to support the “rapture”). So the question is, when will the 1 Thess. 4:16-17 “rapture” occur, in light of the tribulation and Christ’s Second Coming? Here are the three theories previously mentioned:



​

(1) Post-tribulational view – this view holds that the rapture will occur right after the tribulation and immediately before the Second Coming of Christ. This view can be consistent with Scripture and JESUS teaching to the extent it holds that the rapture and Christ’s Second Coming occur together, after the tribulation and the Church Militant on earth. See, for example, Matt. 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thess. 1:1-12.

(2) Pre-tribulational view – this view holds that the rapture will occur before the tribulation. The problem with this view is that it requires three comings of Christ – first, when He was born in Bethlehem; second, when He returns for the rapture before the tribulation; third, when He returns at the end of the tribulation and establishes the millennium. Scripture rejects three comings of Christ. In Heb. 9:28, it is clear that Christ will appear a second and final time, when he comes in glory to save us. This view also is inconsistent with Matt. 24:24-31; Mark 13:24-27; and 2 Thess. 2:1-12 where the rapture and the Second Coming occur together.


(3) Mid-tribulational view – this view holds that the rapture will occur during the middle of the tribulation. The problem with this view is that it also requires three comings of Christ – first, when He was born in Bethlehem; second, when He returns for the rapture during the middle of the tribulation; third, when He returns at the end of the tribulation and establishes the millennium. As seen in Heb. 9:28, Scripture rejects three comings of Christ. The view is also inconsistent with Matt. 24:24-31; Mark. 13:24-27; and 2 Thess. 2:1-12.



​

2 Peter 3:8-15 – instead of worrying about when the rapture will occur, Christians should follow Peter’s instruction to repent of their sins, live lives of holiness and godliness, be zealous and at peace, and wait for the Lord’s coming with forbearance and joy!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Mojoala: //2 Peter 3:8-15 – instead of worrying about
when the rapture will occur,
Christians should follow Peter’s instruction
to repent of their sins, live lives of holiness
and godliness, be zealous and at peace,
and wait for the Lord’s coming with forbearance and joy!

Amen, Sibling Mojoala - You are so RIGHT ON.

However, I report that I know nobody who is
worrying about when the rapture will occur.
It hasen't happened yet so it will happen in the future.
(well, except for those mystic Christians who think
this is all spiritual and we are each raptured away
when we die???)

2Pe 3:8-15 (KJV1611 Edition):
But (beloued) bee not ignorant of this one thing,
that one day is with the Lord as a thousand yeeres,
and a thousand yeeres as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slacke cocerning his promise
(as some men count slacknesse) but is long-suffring
to vs-ward, not willing that any should perish, but
that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord wil come
as a thiefe in the night,
in the which the heauens shall passe away with
a great noise, and the Elements shall melt
with feruent heate, the earth also and the works
that are therin shalbe burnt vp.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall
be dissolued, What maner of persons ought
ye to be in all holy conuersation, and godlinesse,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting vnto the comming of the day of God, wherein the heauens being on fire shalbe dissolued, and the Elements shall melt with feruent heat.
2Pe 3:13 Neuerthelesse wee, according to his promise, looke
for new heauens, and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousnesse.
2Pe 3:14 Wherefore (beloued) seeing that ye looke for such
things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace,
without spot, and blamelesse.
2Pe 3:15 And account that the long suffering
of the Lord is saluation, euen as our beloued brother
Paul also, according to the wisedome giuen vnto him,
hath written vnto you.

This scripture does show that the reason for teaching
any eschatological doctrine is to edify others and
help one another improve their serve!