End Times

[mojoala]

WARNING WILL ROBINSON!, WARNING WILL ROBINSON!

Revelations 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Adding or taking away?

This can look at three different ways.

1. The obvious is rewriting same book with either extra words or some words missing or a combination thereof.

2. The accidental adding and taking away when it was translated from the Greek to any other language.

3. The accidental adding and taking away when it is tempted to be interpretated. This was warned about in 2 Peter 1:20-21:

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Each one of you here is expressing your own private interpretation to a certain degree. You are treading on very shaky ground. Be careful of where you step. It just might be your last in the realm of eternal life.

The only thing that is allowed with the book of Revelations is the hearing of it. Interpretation is warned against.

Furthermore, the adding and taking away only applies to this book. It does not apply to the rest of the bible. At the time of the writing of Revelations, each Gospel or Epistle was a stand alone entity. The only reason that all the books are bound up into a single volume is by virtue of technology. Be warned.

Good day.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Mojoala: //(2) Pre-tribulational view – this view holds that the rapture will occur before the tribulation. The problem with this view is that it requires three comings of Christ – first, when He was born in Bethlehem; second, when He returns for the rapture before the tribulation; third, when He returns at the end of the tribulation and establishes the millennium. Scripture rejects three comings of Christ.//

No problem. Learn to count :applause:

ONE COMING OF JESUS ONLY:
1a. First coming of Jesus as a babe in the manger
1b. First coming of Jesus to the earth in victory over hell
1c. First coming of Jesus to the earth to rapture the saints
1d. First coming of Jesus to the earth to defeat the Antichrist

TWO COMINGS OF JESUS:
1a. First coming of Jesus as a babe in the manger
1b. First coming of Jesus to the earth in victory over hell
2a. Second coming of Jesus to the earth to rapture the saints
2b. Second coming of Jesus to the earth to defeat the Antichrist

THREE COMINGS OF JESUS:
(favorite of a-mill post-tribs & pre-mill post-tribs):
1a. First coming of Jesus as a babe in the manger
1b. First coming of Jesus to the earth in victory over hell
2. Second coming of Jesus to the earth to rapture the saints
3. Third coming of Jesus to the earth to defeat the Antichrist

FOUR COMINGS OF JESUS:
1. First coming of Jesus as a babe in the manger
2. Second coming of Jesus to the earth in victory over hell
3. Third coming of Jesus to the earth to rapture the saints
4. Fourth coming of Jesus to the earth to defeat the Antichrist

 

[DHK]

Each one of you here is expressing your own private interpretation to a certain degree. You are treading on very shaky ground. Be careful of where you step. It just might be your last in the realm of eternal life.

The only thing that is allowed with the book of Revelations is the hearing of it. Interpretation is warned against.
.

The Catholics have always been against personal interpretation of God's Word.
Mojoala, I know that you are not a Baptist, so please don't post in Baptist Forums.
Thank you.
DHK

 

[Helen]

Just a note here on 'in the name of Jesus.'

When my oldest son was about four, we had finished praying one night before I tucked him in and he turned to me and asked, "What is Jesus' name?"

After spending about fifteen minutes of trying to think of every title I could ("Son of God" "Savior" "Redeemer", etc.), and frustrating my son no end, he finally got the words for what he meant: "NO, Mom, when we say 'in Jesus' name' in our prayers, what is His name?"

And after thinking about it for a bit, I finally realized what we were saying when we said "...in Jesus' name...Amen." We are praying in accordance with His CHARACTER. If a man has a 'good name' in town, then he has a good reputation; his character is held in high esteem.

So when something is prayed or done, truly in Jesus' name, it is being prayed or done in a way that upholds His character and is under His authority.

I've learned a lot from my kids through the years.

 

[mnw]

Thank you Ed.

As I said before, Mel, when I get the chance I'll look at my numbers again, in more detail than you have bothered so far. However, it does not change the fact that the word in question can refer to a departure of many kinds.

You fail to recognise that translators, whose Greek and Hebrew exceed our own, translated the word in a way that potentially supports the rapture.

I don't say it is the absolute only interpretation for that passage. For me neither the truth of the apostacy or the rapture rests on a single passage. The case in point could possibly mean either, but because of the language and the context I believe it means the rapture rather than the apostacy.

 

[Mel Miller]

As I said before, Mel, when I get the chance I'll look at my numbers again, in more detail than you have bothered so far. However, it does not change the fact that the word in question can refer to a departure of many kinds.

You fail to recognise that translators, whose Greek and Hebrew exceed our own, translated the word in a way that potentially supports the rapture.

I don't say it is the absolute only interpretation for that passage. For me neither the truth of the apostacy or the rapture rests on a single passage. The case in point could possibly mean either, but because of the language and the context I believe it means the rapture rather than the apostacy.[/quote]
______________________________________________________________

Again, I see no scripture reference for your remarks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Apostasia (#646) is used one other time in the N.T. as I showed you!!!!
It is translated FORSAKE. Why can't you produce scripture?????????????

Enough said.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Ed Edwards]

Pretribulation Rapture/resurrection of the saints

Mel Miller: //Again, I see no scripture reference for your remarks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!//

Here are his sciptures:

2 Th 2:3 (Geneva Bible, 1587):
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes:
for that day shall not come,
except there come a departing first,
and that that man of sinne be disclosed,
euen the sonne of perdition,

2 Th 2:3 (KJV1611 Edition):
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes,
for that day shall not come,
except there come a falling away first,
and that man of sinne bee reuealed,
the sonne of perdition,

-------------------------------------
Here is my Thessalonian report:
-------------------------------------
The Thessalonians were familiar with
this saying of Jesus which we now find
recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

But he that shall endure unto
the end, the same shall be saved.

But some said of their friend "He got
sick and died before Jesus came to
get him, poor soul."

Paul addresses this problem in
a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
one of the most comforting passages in the
Bible.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning those who have fallen
asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
rose again, even so God will bring with Him
those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
that we who are alive and remain until
the coming of the Lord will by no means
precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend
from heaven with a shout, with the voice
of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain
shall be caught up (raptured)
together with them in the clouds to meet
the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
brethren, you have no need that I should
write to you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
in the night.
3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
then sudden destruction comes upon them,
as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
And they shall not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
so that this Day should overtake
you as a thief.
5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
We are not of the night nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
but let us watch and be sober.
7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
but to obtain salvation through our
Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
one another, just as you also are doing.

Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
in a second letter:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

1 Now, brethren, concerning
the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
and our gathering together to Him,
we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
either by spirit or by word or by letter,
as if from us, as though the day of Christ
had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
for that Day will not come unless
the falling away comes first,
and the man of sin
is revealed, the son of perdition,

The falling away that comes first
is the Rapture!
Then the man of sin is revealed, the
antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
begins.

While the KJV uses "falling away" here, the
English versions before the KJV used a
form of "departure" - again, the idea of
someone leaving this world as in the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (Geneva Bible):
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall
not come, except there come a departing first, and that
that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,


There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
the rapture.
Here are some things that could happen
before the rapture but they do NOT
have to happen.

1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invastion
(the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
Tribulation period)
3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
on Mount Moriah north of and alongside
the Dome of the Rock.

But again, these things do not HAVE
TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
happen after the rapture; they could happen
before the rapture. They do not HAVE TO
HAPPEN before the imminent pretribulation
rapture.
-------------------------------------

 

[Ed Edwards]

Just a note here on 'in the name of Jesus.'

When my oldest son was about four, we had finished praying one night before I tucked him in and he turned to me and asked, "What is Jesus' name?"

After spending about fifteen minutes of trying to think of every title I could ("Son of God" "Savior" "Redeemer", etc.), and frustrating my son no end, he finally got the words for what he meant: "NO, Mom, when we say 'in Jesus' name' in our prayers, what is His name?"

And after thinking about it for a bit, I finally realized what we were saying when we said "...in Jesus' name...Amen." We are praying in accordance with His CHARACTER. If a man has a 'good name' in town, then he has a good reputation; his character is held in high esteem.

So when something is prayed or done, truly in Jesus' name, it is being prayed or done in a way that upholds His character and is under His authority.

I've learned a lot from my kids through the years.

Amen, Sister Helen -- You are so RIGHT ON! :thumbs:

The name of our Lord is

Hebrew = Yeshua
1611 English = Iesus (pronounced like we pronounce Jesus today)
2006 English = Jesus
0500 Latin = [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Iesu

[/FONT]

 

[mnw]

Again, I see no scripture reference for your remarks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Apostasia (#646) is used one other time in the N.T. as I showed you!!!!
It is translated FORSAKE. Why can't you produce scripture?????????????

Enough said.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

You know what, just single marks of punctuation do the job? Anyway...

I believe key to understanding my statement is realising I do not refer to a single Greek word. I state this in my original post on the matter. Just to remind you...

"Taking into account the verb in Greek from which this noun takes its meaning, aphisteemi..."

Now, here are the 15 occurances referred to in that statement:


Luke 2:37—"departed not from the temple."
Luke 4:13—"the devil...departed from Him."
Luke 8:13—"in time of temptation fall away."
Luke 13:27—"depart from Me, all ye workers of iniquity."
Acts 5:37—"drew away much people after him."
Acts 5:38—"refrain from these men."
Acts 12:10—"the angel departed from him."
Acts 15:38—"who departed from them from Pamphylia."
Acts 19:9—"he departed from them."
Acts 22:29—"they departed from him."
II Cor. 12:8—"I besought the Lord...that it might depart."
I Tim. 4:1—"some shall depart from the faith."
I Tim. 6:5—"from such withdraw thyself."
II Tim. 2:19—"depart from iniquity." Heb. 3:12—"in departing from the living God."

Notice only 3 of these have reference to a departure from the truth. In fact, 2 speak of departing from iniquity.

I have more detail on the Greek if you want.

Enjoy.

And Ed, thank you for your comments

 

[EdSutton]

ituttut,

Quote:
________________________________________________________________
Mark 9:1 speaks to "Pentecost", for that is what the "kingdom" is to be like, but it was refused. Many saw the Power of the "kingdom".

Agree, not one believer in the Body of Christ today is appointed to His wrath.
________________________________________________________________

Why would Jesus promise that "some would NOT taste death, by any means," before Pentecost? Not one of them died before Pentecost. The
warning was given to prepare "some" who survive the demonstration of God's Kingdom Power by the Two Witnesses ... but must still be willing to die for Christ while these two lie dead for up to 3 1/2 days on a street in Jerusalem! Revelation shows the context. Rev.12:10-14; Rev.11:7-12.

I am not surprised you ignore that "not one saint" is ever appointed to God's wrath! You have "pre-selected" only Pre-Trib Saints to escape
God's wrath! You have "pre-selected" only the 12 tribes of Jews to be
"gathered by the angels" and abandoned faithful Trib-Survivors on earth during the Hour of God's wrath ... on top of their having suffered much thru the great tribulation! What hope do you offer for Surviving Saints??

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

Not one of them died before Pentecost.

Uh, ever hear of Judas??

Ed

 

[Mel Miller]

mnw,

Quote:
_____________________________________________________________
"I believe key to understanding my statement is realising I do not refer to a single Greek word. I state this in my original post on the matter".
_____________________________________________________________

I wish to repeat that *apostasia* and *apostasion* (#646 and #647)
refer to a FORSAKING, a "bill of divorcement" and #646 is only used one other time in the N.T. --- Acts 21:21 where it refers to FORSAKING the teaching of Moses.

Paul uses the word apostasia (Strong's #646) and you use the word
aphistemi (Strong's #868). You admit your word means several things.

Apostasia only means "defection from truth; to forsake". That is
Strong's definition and Thayer's definition.

Your substitute of a different Greek word, aphistemi, is another case of "deception"!! My well meaning friend, I believe in Biblical accuracy ... not in deceiving people.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :thumbsup:

 

[EdSutton]

Ituttut and Ed Suttton,

Quote:
_____________________________________________________________
"Scripture teaches all will be resurrected, but not all at the same time".
This from Ituttut

"Since this ridiculous format does not like to see merely, "Amen!" I'll have to do this, here".
This from Ed Sutton
_____________________________________________________________

I take it that Ituttut (IT) here denies that "all believers in their graves will be raised up on the last day" ... a deliberate denial of the word of the Lord since all believers who "die in the Lord" include tribulation martyrs! Rev.14:13.

Since ES quotes just the words of IT, I take it that Ed Sutton here appoves of IT's denial with an "Amen" that also disapproves of the format as "ridiculous". Ed, are you in approval of IT's statement and what do you mean by the format being "ridiculous"?

If you were referring to Ed Edward's format as "ridiculous", it's more ridiculous than IT's attempt to seek to explain that Jesus did NOT mean what He said about the Day of God's Wrath being a single 12-HOUR DAY with the "sun turning dark at noon"!

My main point, the one that EE and IT refuse to accept is that the DAY of the Lord is a single 12-Hour Day ... NO MORE THAN 12 HOURS; BUT COULD BE LESS THAN 12-HOURS in being fulfilled since the "sun will turn dark at noon and the light will return at twilight ... on the Day Christ comes with ALL, YES ALL, the Saints AT HIS PRESENCE"!! Amos 8:9; Zech.14:5-7;
I Thess.3:13.

IT's insistance that Amos 8:9 refers to the darkness from 12 to 3 at the Cross is an unholy attempt to divert from the truth that ALL believers will
be brought from heaven AND/OR raised up together from the earth to meet the Lord in the air! IT's refusal to accept the word of Christ and Paul that "God will bring the souls of ALL those WITH JESUS who die in the LORD" IS A TOTAL DENIAL OF THE WORD OF GOD!!! I Thess.4:13-14.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

Mel, the "ridiculous format" I was referring to was the fact that the "New downgraded- er I mean "Upgraded (roll eyes) BB format" would not allow me to inject a one word response of "Amen!" by itself.

Ed

 

[Ed Edwards]

Amen!67890

Gotta have 10 characters.

So I do stuff like:

Amen, Brother EdSutton -- Preach it! :thumbs:

 

[EdSutton]

What in the hell is a travail unit? Is this a new Doctrinal Word?:laugh:

While I am not sure exactly what is a "travail unit", in this I believe that one translation speaks of "travail" in this context.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars; see that ye be not troubled: for these things must needs come to pass; but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be famines and earthquakes in divers places.
8 But all these things are the beginning of travail.
9 Then shall they deliver you up unto tribulation, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all the nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many stumble, and shall deliver up one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall arise, and shall lead many astray.
12 And because iniquity shall be multiplied, the love of the many shall wax cold.
(Matt. 24:6-12 - ASV)

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Mnw: //I know I'm into this kind of late, and I am remarking
on something from several pages ago, but I did want to comment
on this one thing.//

Thank you brother Mnw. Feel welcome to add some new material.
Mel Miller, Ituttut, EdSutton (the other Ed) have been arguing,
uh, well, ah - 'debating' eschatology for years. I know I could
write Mel's posts for him, i've seen so many of them

I to have three passages that I use for the pretribulation
rapture which most pretribs don't use:

1. The 2 Thess 2:3 passage you cite.
In 2 Thess 2:1 the word 'and' for me seperates two
seperate sets of events (as opposed to two descriptions of the
same set of events). Speaking of the 'gathering' as one of
the two, a person would expect another
mention of the gathering. There is none, except for
FALLING AWAY in verse 3 (in older English BIbles 'departure').

2. I've been on computer bulleting boards for 22 years now
discussing eschatology.
About 18 years ago people where asking me: Why doesn't John
say something about the Pretribulation Rapture in the
book of Revelation.
He does. It is by type in Revelation 4:1.

3. About 6 years ago people were asking me: Why doesn't
Jesus say something about the Pretribulation Rapture?
He does. My preacher was pointing out that the 'and's
in Genesis one and the 'and's in Matthew 24 were
polysyndeton 'and's. I recall that my grade school
teacher told me:
And you are never, ever to start your sentence with
the word 'and'
So why is it done in the Bible?
I figure that those who wrote Matthew 24 in Greek didn't have
Microsoft Word so they couldn't put bullets.
So they used the polysyndeton 'kai' (Greek for 'and', 'but',
'then', etc.).
Letting the Bible explain the Bible, I figured that
Matthew 24:3, the three questions the disciples asked
Jesus were answered in Matthew 24:4-44 and the following parables
even in Matthew Chapter 25. This is my assumption, yet there
is good reason for it; why it is almost axiomatic!!!

Jesus answered the 3 questions in the order asked
(not in time sequence).

Here are the three questions,here the answer is, and
what the answer of Jesus was.
The polysendton 'and's give both the major outline
and the secondary outline.

A. When will the temple be destroyed?
-Matthew 24:4-14
-- soon. But these verses continue to be true
throughout the Church Age (Time of the Gentiles, Age of Grace, etc.)

B. What is the sign of the Second Coming of Jesus?
-Matthew 24:15-30
-- the Tribulation Period and the Great Tribulation Period

C. what is the sign of the end of the Age?
(here the KJVs put 'world' or Greek 'cosmos' where the
Greek actually says 'aeon' or English 'age')
-Matthew 24:31-44
-- there is no sign (note the same gathering as
mentioned in 2 Thess 2:1) the pretribulation appearing
of Jesus for the Church age Christian elect saints
is always ready to happen at any time - like a thief in the
night comes at an unknown time, so Jesus will come to get
us most anytime

Interesting, eh? I was pretrib before I saw these three
passages. Two of these insights involve the meaning
of the word 'and'. Other KEY WORDS involved in eschatology:

4. 'And' in Revelation 20:4 (two equal sets of saints
or two different sets of saints?)

5. 'First' in Revelation 20:6 (can the first resurreciton
be in multiple parts /yes/ or does FIRST mean
ONE AND ONLY ONE /no/?

6. 'Last' in 'last trumpet' in 1 Corinthians 15:52
(last trumpet for the church age? last trumpet for the
Tribulation Period? last trumpet for the world? etc.)

(note to my deaf firends: if the pretribulation
rapture happens while you are still alive, the
LAST trumpet will be the FIRST thing you hear with
your new body!)


I didn't get my eschatology from Thomas Ice, though
I guess I heard of him 10 years or so ago. I got my
eschatology from Paul (1 above), John (2 above), and
Jesus by Matthew (3 above)

EdSutton has been arguing -er I mean debating, eschatology for years? Well, maybe, but not on the BB, as I've only been a member for less than a year.

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Ed Edwards wrote:

(note to my deaf firends ((sic)): if the pretribulation
rapture happens while you are still alive, the
LAST trumpet will be the FIRST thing you hear with
your new body!)"

Ed, I like that quote. :thumbs:

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

1 Thess. 4:16-17 - Paul writes that "we will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." Many UNSTABLE call this experience the "rapture" (even though the word "rapture" is not found in the Bible, although is derived from the Latin vulgate of this verse – “rapiemur”). John 14:3; 1 Cor. 15:52 - these are other passages that UNSTABLE use to support the rapture experience. The question UNSTABLE has raised is “when will the rapture occur?” They have developed three theories – (1) post-tribulation; (2) pre-tribulation; and, (3) mid-tribulation. We address these theories later on. But first, here is some more background.

Rev. 20:2-3; 7-8 – John sees the vision of an angel who seizes satan and binds him for a period of a thousand years. Protestants generally call this period of a thousand years the “millennium.” The “millennium” is a harbinger of the end of the world, and the theories of when the “rapture” will occur center around this period of time. We should also note that the “thousand years” language is part of apocalyptic literature and should not be interpreted literally. For example, in Psalm 50:10, we see the cattle on a "thousand hills." The word "thousand" here obviously means a lot of hills. In Dan. 7:10, a "thousand thousands" served him. Again, "thousand" means a lot. In 2 Peter 3:8, with God one day is a "thousand" years and a "thousand" years is one day. "Thousand" is symbolic for a long time. It is not to be taken literally.




There are three ways that UNSTABLE interpret the meaning of the thousand year “millennium” (and the interpretation leads to answering when they think the rapture will occur).

(1) Post-millennialism – this view interprets the “thousand years” as a very long time. This view also holds that God’s kingdom is being advanced in the world by His grace and the world will eventually be Christianized. Then Christ will return at the close of this period during a time of righteousness and peace. The problem with this view is that the Scriptures do not teach that the world will be even relatively Christianized before the Second Coming. For example, in Matt. 13:24-30;36-43, Jesus says the wicked and the righteous will co-exist until the end of the world, when they will be judged, and either inherit eternal life, or be thrown into eternal fire.

(2) Pre-millenialism (also called “millenarianism”) – like post-millennialists, this view also interprets the “thousand years” as a golden age on earth when the world will be Christianized. But they believe that this period will occur after Christ’s second coming, during which time Christ will reign physically on earth. They believe the Final Judgment occurs when the millennium is over. But Scripture does not teach that there is a thousand year span between the Second Coming and Final Judgment. Instead, Jesus said that when He comes a second time in glory, He will immediately repay every man for what he has done. Matt. 16:27. When Jesus comes, He will separate the sheep from the goats and render judgment. Matt. 25:31-46. There is nothing about any period of time between His coming and final judgment.

(3) Amillennialism – this view also interprets the “thousand years” symbolically, but, ulike the pre and post views, not as a golden age on earth. This view believes the millennium is the period of Christ’s rule in heaven and on earth through His Church. This is because the saints who reign with Christ and to whom judgment has been committed are said to be on their thrones in heaven. Rev. 20:4; cf. 4:4; 11:16. During this time, satan is bound and cannot hinder the spread of the gospel. Rev. 20:3. This is why, they explain, Jesus teaches the necessity of binding the “strong man” (satan) in order to plunder his house and rescue people from his grip. Matt. 12:29. This is also why, after the disciples preached the gospel and rejoiced that the demons were even subject to them, Jesus declared, “I saw satan fall like lightening from heaven.” Luke 10:18. Nevertheless, during this period, the world will not be entirely Christianized because satan, though bound, is still in some sense able to prowl around and attack souls. cf. 1 Peter 5:8. Of the three, this position is most consistent with JESUS teaching.

2 Thess. 2:1-4 – concerning the Second Coming of Christ, Scripture teaches (and most Protestants believe) that Christ’s coming will be preceded by a time of rebellion, lawlessness and persecution. Protestants often refer to this period as the “tribulation” (although the word “tribulation” cannot be found in the Scripture passages Protestants use to support the “rapture”). So the question is, when will the 1 Thess. 4:16-17 “rapture” occur, in light of the tribulation and Christ’s Second Coming? Here are the three theories previously mentioned:



​

(1) Post-tribulational view – this view holds that the rapture will occur right after the tribulation and immediately before the Second Coming of Christ. This view can be consistent with Scripture and JESUS teaching to the extent it holds that the rapture and Christ’s Second Coming occur together, after the tribulation and the Church Militant on earth. See, for example, Matt. 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thess. 1:1-12.

(2) Pre-tribulational view – this view holds that the rapture will occur before the tribulation. The problem with this view is that it requires three comings of Christ – first, when He was born in Bethlehem; second, when He returns for the rapture before the tribulation; third, when He returns at the end of the tribulation and establishes the millennium. Scripture rejects three comings of Christ. In Heb. 9:28, it is clear that Christ will appear a second and final time, when he comes in glory to save us. This view also is inconsistent with Matt. 24:24-31; Mark 13:24-27; and 2 Thess. 2:1-12 where the rapture and the Second Coming occur together.


(3) Mid-tribulational view – this view holds that the rapture will occur during the middle of the tribulation. The problem with this view is that it also requires three comings of Christ – first, when He was born in Bethlehem; second, when He returns for the rapture during the middle of the tribulation; third, when He returns at the end of the tribulation and establishes the millennium. As seen in Heb. 9:28, Scripture rejects three comings of Christ. The view is also inconsistent with Matt. 24:24-31; Mark. 13:24-27; and 2 Thess. 2:1-12.



​

2 Peter 3:8-15 – instead of worrying about when the rapture will occur, Christians should follow Peter’s instruction to repent of their sins, live lives of holiness and godliness, be zealous and at peace, and wait for the Lord’s coming with forbearance and joy!

With all due respect, mojoala, regardless of one's view of eschatology, "UNSTABLE" is not called for.

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

WARNING WILL ROBINSON!, WARNING WILL ROBINSON!



Adding or taking away?

This can look at three different ways.

1. The obvious is rewriting same book with either extra words or some words missing or a combination thereof.

2. The accidental adding and taking away when it was translated from the Greek to any other language.

3. The accidental adding and taking away when it is tempted to be interpretated. This was warned about in 2 Peter 1:20-21:



Each one of you here is expressing your own private interpretation to a certain degree. You are treading on very shaky ground. Be careful of where you step. It just might be your last in the realm of eternal life.

The only thing that is allowed with the book of Revelations is the hearing of it. Interpretation is warned against.

Furthermore, the adding and taking away only applies to this book. It does not apply to the rest of the bible. At the time of the writing of Revelations, each Gospel or Epistle was a stand alone entity. The only reason that all the books are bound up into a single volume is by virtue of technology. Be warned.

Good day.

First, the 'book' is not the book of Revelations, but rather the book of "Revelation", and is "The Revelation of Jesus Christ", properly named. (Rev. 1:1)

Secondly, you wrote:

The only thing that is allowed with the book of Revelations is the hearing of it. Interpretation is warned against.

Oh really??

"
3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near. (Rev. 1:3 - NKJV)"


Seems to say a bit more than only "hearing", wouldn't you say?



Ed

 

[EdSutton]

The Catholics have always been against personal interpretation of God's Word.
Mojoala, I know that you are not a Baptist, so please don't post in Baptist Forums.
Thank you.
DHK

With respect, DHK, and also realizing you may have some info the rest of us are not privy to, the profile for mojoala still lists him as one "considering" leaving "independent Baptist", but still a member of a 'Baptist" denomination.

Ed

 

[ituttut]

Ituttut,

Quote:
__________________________________________________ ____________
They are all "justified by works, and not by faith only.

That is not our gospel today. Yes it starts out the same, but the message has changed. Romans 4:22-25, "And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
__________________________________________________ ____________

What is our Gospel "TODAY"??
That question was settled by Paul: Justification before God is by grace thru faith, without works!! Apostle James did not dispute that doctrine.

Agree James did not dispute that doctrine for the Gentile, but did for himself. James was saved for the "kingdom that was at hand", and not to be raptured for the simple fact that at his "justification" the gospel was by the grace of God by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Nowhere does James attempt to tell us anything other than that. He was a Jew, saved as a Jew, proud of it and would have it no other way. Surmise you are a Gentile and if so James would not be your buddy, associate with you, eat with you or preach to you the way of "his justification" unless you wish to come as a proselyte. He would tell you to go to your own kind, and have Paul preach to you.

There's nothing here to discuss that relates to the END TIME.

But there is Mel. The end for me is the "rapture". And you say the end for you is . . .?