Enough of Dave Ramsey I am turning to John MacArthur on a theology of finances!

[saturneptune]

Everyone here has a brain. Everyone here reads the Bible. Scripture is very clear about how to handle finances. God commands each and every believer to take care of his family, and when needed, his extended family such as elderly parents and spouse's parents. God commands us to work, earn a living, in whatever occupation the Lord has given us talent in.

You do not have to read what someone else thinks of Biblical finances, you can read. Many good Biblical points have been put out in this thread. A major one is the borrower is slave to the lender. There are times where debt is necessary, but to meet needs, not wants. Needs are shelter, transportation, food, utilities, and clothes. We as Americans have an amazing ability to transform wants into needs. For example, under utilities, we need electricity, gas, water, sewer, and some type of communication device to our home such as a telephone of some type. Internet, Ipods, cell phones, cable and satellite TV are not needs. Shelter is a house that keeps your family warm and cool according to the season, and protects them from the elements. It does not have to be a half million dollar house with more bedrooms than members of the family and a swimming pool for the dog. Transportation is a reliable car that gets you back and forth to work. It does not have to be a new car that one trades in every two years. While on the subject of cars, when my kids became teens, they got more than my Dad gave us. We borrowed his car to go on dates, and there were four of us. We bought our kids junkers, such as a $1300 Dodge Dynasty, and it lasted my son all the way through college. My daughter had a junker Mustang for about $2000. That lasted her through college. I know some of my peers that bought their kids brand new $20000 cars, and they were wrecked within a year. Clothes, the last area of needs, is to cover our bodies, and the clothing WalMart and other stores of that nature put out look good. Every kid does not have to have brand name clothing.

Getting back to the overall financial plan, a family should tithe, save, and stick to a budget that matches their income. One of the concepts we have lost is saving and preparing for retirement, although this younger generation is doing a better job than the Baby Boomers with the 401K. One should always have an emergency fund. The average family has less than 5000 in savings. That is pathetic. Also, we should be ready and willing to help family and friends in need. One of the biggest tragedies in America today in regards to saving and preparing for retirement is the oldest generation (WW2). When Social Security came out, the government went to some expense to warn that SS was a supplement, and never meant to be an entire income in retirement. All of us know many older folks who did not listen or prepare, and they struggle on the SS check month to month. I decided long ago that was not going to be me.

I had a very modest income and two children, and of course my wife. Both kids graduated from college with no debt and a Bachelor degree. We had our house paid off after 13 years. We now have no debt.

I know on this board, most people make lots more than I did. The key to financial success is following the model in the Bible, and keeping your eyes on Jesus instead of the latest invention from Apple, or the latest $50,000 car. Just think if a family had saved all the months of car payments they made. They would easily be millionaires.

 

[Don]

Evangelist - it's best if you don't treat this board like Facebook. It has a different purpose; just as street preaching has a different purpose than pastoring.

I officially retired from the military last December. Not because I wanted to, but because I was passed over for promotion. I know for a fact that I was passed over because the Navy Captain in charge of my section wrote my Air Force promotion recommendation a certain way; and he did that because the civilian deputy commander told him to write it that way, because the civilian deputy commander and I didn't get along.

BUT THAT WASN'T THE ONLY REASON. I can give you a list of things I could have done to ensure my promotion; but I chose not to do them. Some for personal family reasons; some for personal Christian beliefs. Suffice to say, when it comes down to it, the REAL reason I got "fired" was because I didn't take the steps necessary to keep myself employed.

Do you understand what I'm trying to tell you?

 

[evangelist6589]

Hey, we agree again, this is exactly what I have found as well. Where I work now I started in the Heat Treat Department working with hot furnaces and dangerous chemicals. I looked like a coal miner at the end of the day. But I and a fellow Christian that attend church together worked hard. We were complimented on the good job we did by management. When there was an opening in Quality Department for Non-Destructive testing we both applied. We had to study and pass some very difficult tests, but we both made it. We got a big pay increase and the job is CLEAN. :thumbs:

You've got to be willing to start at the bottom and work your way up.

EXACTLY! This is what I have done at every company I have ever worked. Its how I earned my way into many supervisor responsibilities at my last and the previous job.I am talking about my permanent positions and I am not including TEMP positions. I have them listed on my resume but I dont get it any details about them unless asked.

 

[evangelist6589]

Evangelist - it's best if you don't treat this board like Facebook. It has a different purpose; just as street preaching has a different purpose than pastoring.

Perhaps thats my mistake.

I officially retired from the military last December. Not because I wanted to, but because I was passed over for promotion. I know for a fact that I was passed over because the Navy Captain in charge of my section wrote my Air Force promotion recommendation a certain way; and he did that because the civilian deputy commander told him to write it that way, because the civilian deputy commander and I didn't get along.

BUT THAT WASN'T THE ONLY REASON. I can give you a list of things I could have done to ensure my promotion; but I chose not to do them. Some for personal family reasons; some for personal Christian beliefs. Suffice to say, when it comes down to it, the REAL reason I got "fired" was because I didn't take the steps necessary to keep myself employed.

Do you understand what I'm trying to tell you?

Not everywhere you will be a good fit but its best to find where God has you. We live in a hostile world where Christians are persecuted and even those that desire to do right will get passed over and mistreated by those of this world. So just pray and find the place God has called you to be. Is that it?

 

[evangelist6589]

Promise???

I make mistakes but I continue to pick myself up and move on. Arminians like you love it when I fall down and when I mess up, but you are not my friend so it really does not matter.

 

[evangelist6589]

Yes, you are looking for folks to pamper you, when that is the last thing you need. You need a dose of "tough-love" and that is what we are doing here.

Someday you will realize that folks here actually care about you and are giving you good advice. It might hurt a little, but that is what you need to hear.

Pro 27:6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.

Do you understand what this scripture is saying when it says, "Faithful are the WOUNDS of a friend"? Folks here are trying to help you.

Dont we all love it when we get LIKES and positive replies to our posts on FB? Perhaps the attention is not all we need. Don't I wish that many pastors and authors were this humble? I wrote one up the other day and correct a mistake he had made in his book, and he replied and told me that 10,000 people like his book and have written him letters, and did not seem to care about what I wrote. He ignored a good argument all because 10,000 people never told him about his mistake. What a foolish attitude to have.

I have written authors whom have numerous grammar errors, spelling errors, quoting from books and not giving citations anywhere in the book, and the like, and my messages get ignored because 10,000 others have sung the author his praises!

 

[Winman]

Dont we all love it when we get LIKES and positive replies to our posts on FB? Perhaps the attention is not all we need. Don't I wish that many pastors and authors were this humble? I wrote one up the other day and correct a mistake he had made in his book, and he replied and told me that 10,000 people like his book and have written him letters, and did not seem to care about what I wrote. He ignored a good argument all because 10,000 people never told him about his mistake. What a foolish attitude to have.

I must be missing something, I do not know what this thread has to do with Facebook. You wanted to buy books and many folks here advised you not to spend money on books. Most of these persons were Calvinists by the way.

People here are simply telling you to get a job and pay your debts. The scriptures say a man that does not work and provide for his family is WORSE than an infidel.

1 Tim 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

Do you get that? That is WORSE than a lost person. What kind of testimony is that?

Now, I know you are trying to get a job, and I sincerely hope you get a good one. But you need to lay off the attitude, folks here are trying to give you good advice. You shouldn't buy anything new until you are working, and really, you shouldn't buy anything new until you start paying off this debt.

And this has nothing to do with the Calvinism/Arminian debate, it has to do with working with your own two hands as God commands.

 

[Amy.G]

Don't I wish that many pastors and authors were this humble? I wrote one up the other day and correct a mistake he had made in his book, and he replied and told me that 10,000 people like his book and have written him letters, and did not seem to care about what I wrote. He ignored a good argument all because 10,000 people never told him about his mistake. What a foolish attitude to have.

I'm wondering if you do this on the job as well and then cry "Christian persecution!"

 

[evangelist6589]

I must be missing something, I do not know what this thread has to do with Facebook. You wanted to buy books and many folks here advised you not to spend money on books. Most of these persons were Calvinists by the way.

People here are simply telling you to get a job and pay your debts. The scriptures say a man that does not work and provide for his family is WORSE than an infidel.

1 Tim 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

Do you get that? That is WORSE than a lost person. What kind of testimony is that?

Now, I know you are trying to get a job, and I sincerely hope you get a good one. But you need to lay off the attitude, folks here are trying to give you good advice. You shouldn't buy anything new until you are working, and really, you shouldn't buy anything new until you start paying off this debt.

And this has nothing to do with the Calvinism/Arminian debate, it has to do with working with your own two hands as God commands.

Unlike you Paul is not quick to judge those that do not have work but are trying to get work. There are millions on disability, unemployment due to no fault of their own or the like. Paul is speaking of those that have chosen not to work. He is not talking about people whom cannot work, or whom are trying but cant find work. You know what WinMan? I learned this from John MacArthur (someone you do not like as he's reformed). I know that you and others wish to speak down on John and tell me not to buy his books, but I have to disagree. It is wise not to guy buy his NT Commentary series at this time, but a $4.00 book??????? Get real man.

 

[Amy.G]

It is wise not to guy buy his NT Commentary series at this time, but a $4.00 book??????? Get real man.

Here's what's "real". You could have used that $4 to pay on your debt instead of buying something you don't need. What would God have you do?

 

[evangelist6589]

I'm wondering if you do this on the job as well and then cry "Christian persecution!"

No I keep my mouth closed in that environment.

 

[InTheLight]

I make mistakes but I continue to pick myself up and move on. Arminians like you love it when I fall down and when I mess up, but you are not my friend so it really does not matter.

Well, I'm not your enemy, at least. I do not "love it when you fall down". I'm sympathetic.

But you seem to make the same mistakes over and over again. On the job is one example Just now you used a theological label after being told repeatedly by many, many posters on BB that it is not appreciated.

 

[evangelist6589]

Here's what's "real". You could have used that $4 to pay on your debt instead of buying something you don't need. What would God have you do?

I disagree. John MacArthur's books and teachings are very very valuable. He's the best Bible teacher on the planet.

 

[evangelist6589]

Well, I'm not your enemy, at least. I do not "love it when you fall down". I'm sympathetic.

But you seem to make the same mistakes over and over again. On the job is one example Just now you used a theological label after being told repeatedly by many, many posters on BB that it is not appreciated.

if I have offended you I apologize.....

However the Bible speaks plainly that the elect will be persecuted and hated for his names sake. Jesus himself said so in John 17. MacArthur has written a good chapter on being hated without a cause in one of his books that I read from time to time for encouragement.

If one brings it on themselves that is another matter. However I did not desire to work every sunday, nor did I desire to cuss, talk about sex, drink, or play games with the Occult. As a result I did not fit in, and got let go. Other than that I strived to work hard for the Lord while I was on the job.

 

[Amy.G]

I disagree. John MacArthur's books and teachings are very very valuable. He's the best Bible teacher on the planet.

So? You don't have to have his book! You have to have food, clothing, and shelter, not books! This attitude is why you're in debt.

 

[Don]

Not everywhere you will be a good fit but its best to find where God has you. We live in a hostile world where Christians are persecuted and even those that desire to do right will get passed over and mistreated by those of this world. So just pray and find the place God has called you to be. Is that it?

Only partially. Definitely pray and find the place God has called you to be ... which may be exactly where you are, even if it's in the lion's den.

More to the point -- what more could you have done to remain employed? How much of your being let go are you willing to take responsibility for?

I have to warn you: Those e-mails and letters you're receiving that tell you how qualified and what an excellent candidate you are? There are a half dozen other people who interviewed for the same job that are getting the same e-mails and letters. I know, because I've been in your position and received similar e-mails and letters; and I've also been in the position of hiring others and sending out those same e-mails and letters.

You have to make a decision, my friend, especially now that you're married. Are you going to do what it takes to support your family and your street-preaching? Are you going to swallow your pride and put up with whatever you have to put up with?

Don't answer those questions; you've attempted to answer them before, but this board isn't the place to do so. Instead, consider them prayerfully and seriously.

 

[quantumfaith]

Only partially. Definitely pray and find the place God has called you to be ... which may be exactly where you are, even if it's in the lion's den.

More to the point -- what more could you have done to remain employed? How much of your being let go are you willing to take responsibility for?

I have to warn you: Those e-mails and letters you're receiving that tell you how qualified and what an excellent candidate you are? There are a half dozen other people who interviewed for the same job that are getting the same e-mails and letters. I know, because I've been in your position and received similar e-mails and letters; and I've also been in the position of hiring others and sending out those same e-mails and letters.

You have to make a decision, my friend, especially now that you're married. Are you going to do what it takes to support your family and your street-preaching? Are you going to swallow your pride and put up with whatever you have to put up with?

Don't answer those questions; you've attempted to answer them before, but this board isn't the place to do so. Instead, consider them prayerfully and seriously.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[JonC]

He's the best Bible teacher on the planet.

Evan – I appreciate what you do, it takes great conviction and courage to be a street preacher. I often miss opportunities to share the gospel with others. Like you, I appreciate and learn from MacArthur’s sermons. But for some reason this particular quote is troublesome.

 

[Havensdad]

I will listen to secular teachers as well because they are good in the subjects that they teach. How would believing in DoG or not affect how one handles money?

HUGELY. Understanding the complete sovereignty of God has an enormous impact on this issue.

However, let me ask you a question: If you needed to take a physics class, and you had a choice between two teachers, both who were smart, and new the subject, and ONE of those teachers was an atheist, and the other was a born again brother, which one would you choose?

I know who I would choose...cause if you don't have your presuppositions right, everything you build on those presuppositions, are going to be skewed too...

 

[Havensdad]

So? You don't have to have his book! You have to have food, clothing, and shelter, not books! This attitude is why you're in debt.

I definitely disagree with this line of thinking. Good Biblical instruction, particularly that which can help us with a problem at hand, is more valuable than food. I would eat some Ramen noodles for a couple of meals, and get the book.

I believe even Dave Ramsey counsels including "entertainment" as a "necessary expense"...