I am almost finished with Kurt Eichenwalds "Conspiracy of Fools", about the Enron scandal. Excellent book! Reads like a Grisham novel. This is the third book Ive read on the Enron debacle not to mention countless internet stories. Ken Lay's and Jeff Skilling's trial is in January 06. If Lay is convicted, this could put George W in a position to grant Lay a presidential pardon. As you probably know Lay was a big influence in getting GW elected Governor of Texas as well as President of the United States. He was very close to his father as well. Do you think Lay has a chance to be pardoned by Bush if he ends up in prison?
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Enron
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Bro. James Reed
New Member
Lay is being made the patsy.
I don't believe he had anything to do with the Enron "stuff", other than being oblivious to its goings on.
As CEO in the latter part of the company's days, he should have seen what was happening and had happened, but I don't believe he did.
If anything, he is guilty of mismanagement, insider trading, and maybe even trying to help cover it up, but I don't think he was involved in the "faked earnings" part of the scandal.
Now, as for Jeff Skilling, that is another story. He's as guilty as sin.
BTW, if Lay is convicted, then yes, I believe that GW will do as Clinton did for his buddies and pardon him on his last day of office.
I don't believe he had anything to do with the Enron "stuff", other than being oblivious to its goings on.
As CEO in the latter part of the company's days, he should have seen what was happening and had happened, but I don't believe he did.
If anything, he is guilty of mismanagement, insider trading, and maybe even trying to help cover it up, but I don't think he was involved in the "faked earnings" part of the scandal.
Now, as for Jeff Skilling, that is another story. He's as guilty as sin.
BTW, if Lay is convicted, then yes, I believe that GW will do as Clinton did for his buddies and pardon him on his last day of office.
I really hope that he does because I totally agree with you. I think Ken Lay is a nice man who was putting too much faith in some crooked men that worked for him. As CEO though he should have known more of what was going on and heeded the warnings of some of his directors. I think the worst one of all was Andy Fastow.
I see you are from Houston Bro Reed. How has that city fared since the collapse of Enron?
I see you are from Houston Bro Reed. How has that city fared since the collapse of Enron?
Bro. James Reed
New Member
We've been okay as a whole, but many people have suffered due to the collapse, and the domino effect that it had with other companies.
Arthur Andersen also took a pretty big hit.
That said, we did just have Lyondell-Citgo move their headquarters to Houston, so everything is balancing out.
I think the city learned a lesson in the mid-'80's not to put all of our eggs into the "energy" basket. Things are much more diverse now, so a felled market will not bring down the entire city again.
My pastor's wife worked for Enron, and she still works for one of the pipelines that they sold after the crash. She lost about $2 million in retirement. It's a good thing that she is still relatively young and they were not living past their means, otherwise they would have been devastated, not that losing $2 million isn't devastating, but I think you get my point.
I really feel sorry for those folks who depended on that money to live, such as the recently retired and those on the verge thereof.
The biggest "show" out of all of this was when the Astros sued to have Enron Field renamed. It is now Minute Maid Park. (I liked Enron Field better.)
There are now two huge, brand-new, former Enron skyscrapers in downtown for sale, in case anyone is in the market.
Arthur Andersen also took a pretty big hit.
That said, we did just have Lyondell-Citgo move their headquarters to Houston, so everything is balancing out.
I think the city learned a lesson in the mid-'80's not to put all of our eggs into the "energy" basket. Things are much more diverse now, so a felled market will not bring down the entire city again.
My pastor's wife worked for Enron, and she still works for one of the pipelines that they sold after the crash. She lost about $2 million in retirement. It's a good thing that she is still relatively young and they were not living past their means, otherwise they would have been devastated, not that losing $2 million isn't devastating, but I think you get my point.
I really feel sorry for those folks who depended on that money to live, such as the recently retired and those on the verge thereof.
The biggest "show" out of all of this was when the Astros sued to have Enron Field renamed. It is now Minute Maid Park. (I liked Enron Field better.)
There are now two huge, brand-new, former Enron skyscrapers in downtown for sale, in case anyone is in the market.
emeraldctyangel
New Member
I dont think the President should pardon anyone at all.
I read some of the issues with Enron in my Business class. One of the things that struck me were workers who were pictured at a business meeting standing up, applauding at the entrance of a couple of circus elephants making their appearance (in a hotel ballroom, during a business meeting). My first thought would have been, 'what the heck is an elephant doing here - AND who is paying for it?'. But the looks on the meeting participants faces said they were overjoyed and fully participatory to be led down the path they eventually found themselves on.
Fiscal responsibility starts with self. When you mentioned a young woman friend of yours that lost '2 million in retirement', that right there reinforced the idea that this entire company was profiting far above the real value of their product. Who has 2 million in retirement benefits? Apparently nobody at Enron. Perhaps that was just more of the famous Enron fantasy accounting?
A huge company full of business people and only a few are responsible for all the bad accounting and creative business law? I think not. It took all those employees to get that company rolling, to keep it profitable, and someone somewhere should have noticed that things were off.
I guess it was okay for all those innocent workers to collect such outrageous benefits? Seems to me these innocent workers should have gotten jobs in fantasy land and steered clear of the business world. Surely they knew they were above average in benefits and it seems (from my comfy chair) they didnt care. What goes up, always comes down.
I read some of the issues with Enron in my Business class. One of the things that struck me were workers who were pictured at a business meeting standing up, applauding at the entrance of a couple of circus elephants making their appearance (in a hotel ballroom, during a business meeting). My first thought would have been, 'what the heck is an elephant doing here - AND who is paying for it?'. But the looks on the meeting participants faces said they were overjoyed and fully participatory to be led down the path they eventually found themselves on.
Fiscal responsibility starts with self. When you mentioned a young woman friend of yours that lost '2 million in retirement', that right there reinforced the idea that this entire company was profiting far above the real value of their product. Who has 2 million in retirement benefits? Apparently nobody at Enron. Perhaps that was just more of the famous Enron fantasy accounting?
A huge company full of business people and only a few are responsible for all the bad accounting and creative business law? I think not. It took all those employees to get that company rolling, to keep it profitable, and someone somewhere should have noticed that things were off.
I guess it was okay for all those innocent workers to collect such outrageous benefits? Seems to me these innocent workers should have gotten jobs in fantasy land and steered clear of the business world. Surely they knew they were above average in benefits and it seems (from my comfy chair) they didnt care. What goes up, always comes down.
Can't deny the possibility of the above, but it's interesting that those $ signs can make a lot of people just refuse to see immorality, ethical lapses, graft etc. when these same people would NEVER actively participate in same.
"Love of money" syndrome!
No wonder Jesus talked about it so much!
emeraldctyangel
New Member
Exactly what I was thinking just-want-peace.
Take a look at this. This is Enron's cast of characters and their stock sales. *All listed sales occurred between October 19, 1998 and November 27, 2001. The number shown under
gross proceeds indicates the number of shares times the price of Enron stock on the day the shares were
sold. It does not reflect any costs the Enron officials incurred in exercising the sale of the stock. Therefore,
the net proceeds to the listed individuals is likely less than the amount shown. List first shows amount of shares and what they made.
Clifford Baxter Vice-Chairman 619,898 $34,734,854
Robert Belfer Member of Board of Directors 2,065,137 $111,941,200
Norman Blake Member of Board of Directors 21,200 $1,705,328
Rick Buy Chief Risk Officer 140,234 $10,656,595
Rick Causey Chief Accounting Officer 208,940 $13,386,896
Ronnie Chan Member of Board of Directors 8,000 $337,200
James Derrick General Counsel 230,660 $12,563,928
John Duncan Member of Board of Directors 35,000 $2,009,700
Andy Fastow Chief Financial Officer 687,445 $33,675,004
Joe Foy Member of Board of Directors 38,160 $1,639,590
Mark Frevert Chief Executive Office, Enron Europe 986,898 $54,831,220
Wendy Gramm Member of Board of Directors 10,328 $278,892
Kevin Hannon President, Enron Broadband Services Unknown Unknown
Ken Harrison Member of Board of Directors 1,011,436 $75,416,636
Joe Hirko CEO, Enron Communications 473,837 $35,168,721
Stan Horton CEO, Enron Transportation 830,444 $47,371,361
Robert Jaedicke Member of Board of Directors 13,360 $841,438
Steve Kean Executive Vice President, Chief of Staff 64,932 $5,166,414
Mark Koenig Executive Vice President 129,153 $9,110,466
Ken Lay Chairman, Enron Corp. 4,002,259 $184,494.426
Charles LeMaistre Member of Board of Directors 17,344 $841,768
Rebecca Mark Chief Executive Officer, Azurix 1,895,631 $82,536,737
Michael McConnell Executive Vice President 32,960 $2,506,311
Jeff McMahon Treasurer 39,630 $2,739,226
Cindy Olson Executive Vice President 83,183 $6,505,870
Lou Pai CEO, Enron Energy Services 3,912,205 $270,276,065
Ken Rice CEO, Enron Broadband Services 1,234,009 $76,825,145
Jeffrey Skilling Chief Executive Officer, Enron Corp. 1,307,678 $70,687,199
Joe Sutton Vice-Chairman 688,996 $42,231,283
Greg Whalley Chief Operating Officer, Enron Corp. Unknown Unknown
TOTALS 20,788,957 $1,190,479,472
SOURCES: Mark Newby, et al. vs. Enron Corp., et al., Securities and Exchange Commission filings,
Congressional testimony, Enron Corp. press releases.
gross proceeds indicates the number of shares times the price of Enron stock on the day the shares were
sold. It does not reflect any costs the Enron officials incurred in exercising the sale of the stock. Therefore,
the net proceeds to the listed individuals is likely less than the amount shown. List first shows amount of shares and what they made.
Clifford Baxter Vice-Chairman 619,898 $34,734,854
Robert Belfer Member of Board of Directors 2,065,137 $111,941,200
Norman Blake Member of Board of Directors 21,200 $1,705,328
Rick Buy Chief Risk Officer 140,234 $10,656,595
Rick Causey Chief Accounting Officer 208,940 $13,386,896
Ronnie Chan Member of Board of Directors 8,000 $337,200
James Derrick General Counsel 230,660 $12,563,928
John Duncan Member of Board of Directors 35,000 $2,009,700
Andy Fastow Chief Financial Officer 687,445 $33,675,004
Joe Foy Member of Board of Directors 38,160 $1,639,590
Mark Frevert Chief Executive Office, Enron Europe 986,898 $54,831,220
Wendy Gramm Member of Board of Directors 10,328 $278,892
Kevin Hannon President, Enron Broadband Services Unknown Unknown
Ken Harrison Member of Board of Directors 1,011,436 $75,416,636
Joe Hirko CEO, Enron Communications 473,837 $35,168,721
Stan Horton CEO, Enron Transportation 830,444 $47,371,361
Robert Jaedicke Member of Board of Directors 13,360 $841,438
Steve Kean Executive Vice President, Chief of Staff 64,932 $5,166,414
Mark Koenig Executive Vice President 129,153 $9,110,466
Ken Lay Chairman, Enron Corp. 4,002,259 $184,494.426
Charles LeMaistre Member of Board of Directors 17,344 $841,768
Rebecca Mark Chief Executive Officer, Azurix 1,895,631 $82,536,737
Michael McConnell Executive Vice President 32,960 $2,506,311
Jeff McMahon Treasurer 39,630 $2,739,226
Cindy Olson Executive Vice President 83,183 $6,505,870
Lou Pai CEO, Enron Energy Services 3,912,205 $270,276,065
Ken Rice CEO, Enron Broadband Services 1,234,009 $76,825,145
Jeffrey Skilling Chief Executive Officer, Enron Corp. 1,307,678 $70,687,199
Joe Sutton Vice-Chairman 688,996 $42,231,283
Greg Whalley Chief Operating Officer, Enron Corp. Unknown Unknown
TOTALS 20,788,957 $1,190,479,472
SOURCES: Mark Newby, et al. vs. Enron Corp., et al., Securities and Exchange Commission filings,
Congressional testimony, Enron Corp. press releases.
Bro. James Reed
New Member
I should have been more clear, I think, in my explanation.
My pastor's wife had stock in the company worth $2 million. She had worked for them for something like 15 years as a Senior Accountant of a particular pipeline, in fact, the only line which was still making a profit after the collapse. The stock she had was part of her benefits package from the company, but she did not have this money in cash. It was all stock.
I don't know about in Hawaii, but I know plenty of people in Houston who work in the energy field and have comparable amounts worth of stock in their company.
My mother worked for Southwestern Bell back in the 70's and when she left, after 11 years, she had something like 10,000 shares of their stock or more. Of course, if she had stayed with the company longer, it would have been worth a lot more when she quit or retired.
Big companies like that often give stocks to their employers in lieu of an actual "real" amount in retirement funds.
BTW, I can promise you that, although she is an accountant with them, she had no idea what was going on. You are talking about a huge company with thousands of employees and dozens of subsidiaries with their own employees. It's like saying the city dog catcher must be on the take because the mayor was defrauding the government. I really don't think you can make that stick.
Magnetic Poles
New Member
I hope to see Kenny Boy join Bernie Ebbers and be put away for a very, very long time. Let's add Joseph Nacchio to that cell, and they can all defraud each other.
hillclimber
New Member
I agree with every word of this except I don't think GWB would pardon Lay. But I hope he would.
Bro. James Reed
New Member
I don't doubt that Lay is guilty of insider trading, shown by his(and other top execs) selling his(their) stock while at the same time telling their employees that things were fine and forecasts showed Enron would approach $100 per share.
To top it off, before the end was fully come, the company would not allow employees to sell their stock, so people who didn't get out early with the big wigs lost it all.
An analogy (my favorite things):
A group of men rob your bank and kill the guard in the process. They run out of the bank and accidentally drop several thousand dollars on the ground as they flea. You, standing there, see the money fall, realize what happened, and take the fallen money in order to offset what they have just stolen from "your" savings. You are no doubt guilty of a crime, but you would not be charged with murder, etc, like the other folks.
Put Ken Lay in that position and you have someone who was at the wrong place at the wrong time, but instead of stepping forward and doing the right thing, decided cash in his chips so that he would not lose like he saw everyone else would.
Ken Lay is, I believe, guilty of that, but he was not involved in the fraudulent activities which took place before he was even Chairman.
I do believe that every plug nickel that he got from the early sell of his stock should have been given back to the company as debt payment.
No one who committed a crime should be able to keep the proceeds from that crime.
Jeff Skilling and Andrew Fastow are the 2 masterminds and the most deserving of extreme punishment.
To top it off, before the end was fully come, the company would not allow employees to sell their stock, so people who didn't get out early with the big wigs lost it all.
An analogy (my favorite things):
A group of men rob your bank and kill the guard in the process. They run out of the bank and accidentally drop several thousand dollars on the ground as they flea. You, standing there, see the money fall, realize what happened, and take the fallen money in order to offset what they have just stolen from "your" savings. You are no doubt guilty of a crime, but you would not be charged with murder, etc, like the other folks.
Put Ken Lay in that position and you have someone who was at the wrong place at the wrong time, but instead of stepping forward and doing the right thing, decided cash in his chips so that he would not lose like he saw everyone else would.
Ken Lay is, I believe, guilty of that, but he was not involved in the fraudulent activities which took place before he was even Chairman.
I do believe that every plug nickel that he got from the early sell of his stock should have been given back to the company as debt payment.
No one who committed a crime should be able to keep the proceeds from that crime.
Jeff Skilling and Andrew Fastow are the 2 masterminds and the most deserving of extreme punishment.
T
TexasSky
Guest
I think Lay was set up, just like the employees.
The effects of that mess reach further than people realized originally. The Teacher's Retirement System orginally told their people that they were not hurt because TRS and the State of Texas was not invested in Enron, but closer examination showed that they were invested in some satellite companies that Enron owned, and when it fell the satellites fell.
The damage to Arthur Anderson had ripple affects too, as it was a respected company whose reach touched all of Texas prior to that nonsense.
The effects of that mess reach further than people realized originally. The Teacher's Retirement System orginally told their people that they were not hurt because TRS and the State of Texas was not invested in Enron, but closer examination showed that they were invested in some satellite companies that Enron owned, and when it fell the satellites fell.
The damage to Arthur Anderson had ripple affects too, as it was a respected company whose reach touched all of Texas prior to that nonsense.
T
TexasSky
Guest
I've been out of accounting for several years now. What is "Sarbanes-Oxley "?
emeraldctyangel
New Member
Brother - I got the 'stock worth 2 million part'. I have to say, there was not enough value of their product to sustain that kind of benefit no matter how you slice it.
With that kind of thinking, people in Texas should be paying about 15 dollars for a gallon of milk.
Enron will forever more be a cautionary tale.
With that kind of thinking, people in Texas should be paying about 15 dollars for a gallon of milk.
Enron will forever more be a cautionary tale.
If you were in a 401(k) at the time of Enron's collapse you probably (like me) lost a bundle.
As of Sept 30, 2001, the top institutional holders were:
#1 - Alliance Capital Mgmt with 42,939,048 shares; followed closely by #2 - Janus Capital Mgmt with 41,361,200 shares; #3 - Putnam Investment Mgmt (Marsh & McLennan) with 23,122,100 shares; #4 - Barclays Global Investors (a member of the Committee of 300) with 23,047,196 shares; and #5 - Fidelity Mgmt & Research with 20,790,452 shares.
The remaining of the top 15 investors included: Smith Barney; State St. Global Advisors; Aim Mgmt; Vanguard Group; Morgan Stanley; Northern Trust; Deutsche Bankers Trust; Massachusetts Financial Service; Presdner Rcm; Cs First Boston Investment. . . .
As of Sept 30, 2001, the top institutional holders were:
#1 - Alliance Capital Mgmt with 42,939,048 shares; followed closely by #2 - Janus Capital Mgmt with 41,361,200 shares; #3 - Putnam Investment Mgmt (Marsh & McLennan) with 23,122,100 shares; #4 - Barclays Global Investors (a member of the Committee of 300) with 23,047,196 shares; and #5 - Fidelity Mgmt & Research with 20,790,452 shares.
The remaining of the top 15 investors included: Smith Barney; State St. Global Advisors; Aim Mgmt; Vanguard Group; Morgan Stanley; Northern Trust; Deutsche Bankers Trust; Massachusetts Financial Service; Presdner Rcm; Cs First Boston Investment. . . .
If people would only follow old Solomon's advice!