Eph. 1: Does it support Calvinism?

[Salamander]

Jarthur's profile reads:

Denomination(Baptist, Methodist, Catholic...):
non denomination/ Bible Church

Jarthur, are you all three?:type:

 

[Salamander]

All you need to do is start an Eph 2 thread, in fact, I will do it myself.

Why? You mean to say that Ephesians 1 is separate from the rest of Ephesians??? Separate from the rest of the Bible???

 

[rsr]

This situation has been brought to the attention of the moderators and administrators and need not be further discussed on this thread.

Please return to discussing the original topic.

 

[Jarthur001]

Thanks Salamander.

You make some good points.

One should do further study to the ethical meaning of "before the foundations of the world". The passage is not speaking of the earth, but the foundation of the evil world's system

I'm not sure I agree with this, but lets take a look.

Does not the point remain? If we say this is evil system, evil or as i call it the sin principle was around at the fall of man. Sin is not only a act, as I'm sure you know, but also seen as a force (sin principle) that draws on our lust and pride. The Father is non other then Satan. Satan, is said to control the world system. Satan took Christ and told Him that if He would only worship him (Satan) Christ would be given the control of "the world system". This is not saying God is not in full control, It is showing that as the son of man, Christ was tempted with all the things of the world...and the things of the world were Satans to give....and yet He (Christ) sinned not. The deal was...Death on the Cross...or the kingdoms of the earth. Sorry to ramble...

The point...this sin principle was around from the beginning at the fall and even if we were to read it just as you said...this would change nothing. As I see it..that is.

I did say "borderline". The heretick continues to believe the heresy after being enlightened by the Lord. I have no power to enlighten anyone, but if God will use me, then Glory be to God!!!

I agree. This was all you said. I used the SHOCK value to draw your eyes to the road you were going down. I in no way think you would burn me. I wanted you to see that that word can lead to out things. Just as the word cult. But just as I said...in this post you have now moved from "borderline"...to heretick. I rest my case.

I'm not that rash, friend, and allow as a true Baptist the right for anyone to believe anything they wish under the guise of the priesthood of the believer as long as they dont try to advocate their heretical beliefs in our church.

Did anyone see a oxymoron in this statement or is it just me?

And down the path we go.

I think "REPENT! REPENT!" would better fit a person's real need since they believe something so diamtrically opposed to sound doctrine.

I would agree. But I also believe ...Calvinism is the sound doctrine of the Bible. If you have a better view..post it. No need to call any one heretick with no Bible backing. You have ran from the truth and into mans feelings and logic....if..IF...if you cannot back your doctrine from Gods Word. At this point you have not. Do this 1st..then call me a heretick when you prove it.

I have a better idea, let's not insinuate anything and address only exactly what is said. I have not called anyone a name.

where is johnp when you need him????

Thanks for not addressing me exactly as....heretick was it?

Now would anyone like to address the subject?


In Christ...James

 

[Dale-c]

This is the OP for those who have forgotten what it was.

This is carring over from the other thread where I posted this...

Suppose there are two football coaches living there in your hometown, Coach Calvin and Coach Arminian. Coach Calvin is in a league where he coaches a team he has individually selected. Coach Arminian is in a league where he coaches a team who has individually chose to voluntarily join his team. Coach Calvin predetermined who would be on his team, while Coach Arminian allowed his team to join voluntarily. However, one thing they both had in common is that prior to the teams being formed both coaches had predetermined to conform their team members into conditioned football players.

Calvinists insist this passage along with Eph. 1 where predestination is also mentioned must mean that God is like "Coach Calvin" but all the passage tells us is what the coach has predetermined for his team, it says nothing about his predetermining who would and would not be on that team.

In regard to Eph. 1 we are told that believers are predestined to be adopted as sons, but we are never told certain individuals are predestined to believe. Being adopted is something we are still waiting on to be completed and something which all believers have been predestined to.

 

[Dale-c]

James, we must have posted at the same time

 

[Jarthur001]

James, we must have posted at the same time

What are your views on Eph 1 Dale? I know that not all Calvinist follow the outline I posted. Maybe you have more insight then me.

In Christ...James

 

[J.D.]

WARNING! ATTEMPTED HUMOR AHEAD.


I take ONE day off and look what happens! You're at each other's throats!

And you say I'm mean?

 

[Salamander]

So you believe that lucifer's sin and Adam's sin are co-equal? Do you also believe that men can be holy and without blame before they are saved? I believe Eph 1:4 shows us the predetermined plan of salvation as Christ being as the Lamb slain beofre the foundations of the world as in God's omniscient plan to save all men who will repent and believe the Gospel, trusting only in the Merit of Christ and His ultimte payment by His Blood for all man's sins.

If the Calvinist wishes to believe that God chose who would be saved and then conformed into the image of Christ then there is no need for the Gospel being preached to reach anyone, they already would have been reached before they were even born.

Either God calls all men to repentence or He requires none, for He already saved those men before the foundations of the world, of which is NOT true.

The Gospel is just that, the Gospel. It is an ultimatim: either repent, or perish.

God's plan is perfect. Calvin's attempt to explain it has too many holes in it. His attempt would hold true if man didn't have the will to obey the Gospel call. Man obeys by his own free will. God placed the call, it's just up to man to answer.raying:

raise: :Fish: raise:

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Salamander,

So you believe that lucifer's sin and Adam's sin are co-equal?

All sin can be said as on thing. In my view that is.

A path away from Gods will.

Do you also believe that men can be holy and without blame before they are saved?

No. I believe that man followed Satan down that sin path away from God. This placed in him that sin nature. When Man was made.."It Was Good"...and he know not of this evil path. When Adam took of the tree, .."His eyes were open"..to evil. Notice the wording in the Bible. "knowing good and evil". Adam only knew good before the fall. In Sin, Adams eyes were open to evil showing him that sin path, which is really mans will and not Gods will.

This was the 1st sin....

Adam..do not eat from this tree. Now Adam..if you eat from this tree, you are saying you want your will over my will. Adam choose to eat..and thereby said he wanted his own way. This is always having to do with sin. Our way..(a path away from Gods will)....or Gods way..(the path that follows Gods will)

Man still knows of this good path toward God, but his sin nature controls him and he sees no need to follow God. His will is BOUND to his love of sin. Ask a person if he wants to go to hell..all will say NO..who wants to go to hell? Ok..some punk may say it as a joke..but he does not believe there is a real hell. If he really know of the real hell, he would not say this. So people will be glad to be saved from hell. But...that is not what we are saved from is it? Yes..in the end we no longer are on our way to hell. But...what we are saved from is our sin that places us in hell. Now ask the same people if they want to be saved from sin. Most will say know..for they love their sins to much. They see no need to be saved. or...they want to sin a bit more..and be saved later. NOW is the day of salvation.

I believe Eph 1:4 shows us the predetermined plan of salvation as Christ being as the Lamb slain beofre the foundations of the world as in God's omniscient plan to save all men who will repent and believe the Gospel, trusting only in the Merit of Christ and His ultimte payment by His Blood for all man's sins.

I do not see it that way. I think verse 4 tells of the choosing.

And 5 tells of the plan as you just stated.

If the Calvinist wishes to believe that God chose who would be saved and then conformed into the image of Christ then there is no need for the Gospel being preached to reach anyone, they already would have been reached before they were even born.

There is an abundance of historical evidence with which to refute this claim.

Under God, the father of modern missions was William Carey, a staunch Calvinist.

Andrew Fuller, first secretary of the society that sent Carey to India, held tenaciously to our view of election.

It did not destroy the missionary spirit of these men. "The proof of the pudding is in the eating." Belief in election did not destroy the missionary spirit in Judson, Spurgeon, Boyce, Eaton, Graves, Carroll and a host of other Baptist leaders. The Murray church, which Dr. J.F. Love called the greatest missionary church on earth, heard election preached by Boyce Taylor for nearly forty years. The greatest missionary churches among us today are those that have been purged from James Arminius.

Election is the very foundation of hope in missionary endeavour. If we had to depend upon the natural disposition or will of a dead sinner, who hates God, to respond to our gospel, we might well despair. But when we realize that it is the Spirit that quickeneth, we can go forth with the gospel of the grace of God in the hope that God will cause some, by nature turned away, to be turned unto Him and to believe to the saving of the soul. Election does not determine the extent of missions but the results of it. We are to preach to every creature because God has commanded, and because it pleases Him to save sinners by the foolishness of preaching. We believe more in election than the Anti-mission Baptists. We believe that God elected means of salvation as well as persons to salvation. He did not choose to save sinners apart from the gospel ministry.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Election gives a saneness to evangelism that is greatly needed today. It recognizes that sinners "believe through grace" (Acts 18:27) and that while Paul may plant and Apollos may water, God gives the increase.

Arminianism has had its day among Baptists and what has it done? It has given us man-power, but robbed us of God's power. It has increased machinery but has decreased spirituality. It has filled our churches with Ishmaels instead of Isaacs by its ministry of "sob stuff" and with the methods of the "counting house".

the following Scriptures will give it support

Psa 65:4 Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:44-45 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

John 17:1-2 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Mat 11:25-26 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

2 Cor 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds

more to come....

 

[Jarthur001]

Either God calls all men to repentence or He requires none, for He already saved those men before the foundations of the world, of which is NOT true.

The Gospel is just that, the Gospel. It is an ultimatim: either repent, or perish.

God's plan is perfect. Calvin's attempt to explain it has too many holes in it. His attempt would hold true if man didn't have the will to obey the Gospel call. Man obeys by his own free will. God placed the call, it's just up to man to answer.

I do not feel that view is supported in the Bible.

Our view explains and supports the doctrine of "WHOSOEVER WILL". Without election the invitation to "WHOSOEVER WILL" would go unheeded. The Bible doctrine of "WHOSOEVER WILL" does not imply the freedom or ability of the human will ....to do good. The human will is free, but its freedom is within the limits ......of fallen human nature.

It is free like water.... water is free to run down hill.

It is free like the vulture....the vulture is free to eat carrion, for that is its nature, but it would starve to death in a wheat field. It is not the buzzard's nature to eat clean food....it feeds upon the carcasses of the dead.

So sinners starve to death in the presence ....of the bread of life. Our Lord said to some sinners, who were in His very presence "Ye will not come unto me that ye might have life"
It is not natural for a sinner to trust in Christ. Salvation through trust in a crucified Christ is a stumbling block to the Jew and foolishness to the Greek.... it is only the called, both Jews and Greeks, who trust it as the wisdom and power of God.

1 Cor 1:23-24 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Here is a physical corpse. Is it free to get up and walk around?

In one sense, yes. It is not bound by fetters. There is no external restraint. But, in another sense, that corpse is not free. It is hindered by its natural condition. It is its nature to decompose and go back to dust. It is not the nature of death to stir about.

Here is a spiritual corpse -- a man dead in trespasses and sins. Is the man free to repent and believe and do good works? Yes, in one sense. There are no external restraints. God does not prevent but offers inducements through His Holy Word. But the corpse is hindered by its own nature. There must be the miracle of the new birth, for except a man be born from above he cannot see or enter into the Kingdom of God.

John 3:3-5 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

It is painful to some of us to see our brethren forsake the faith of our Baptist forbears at this point and join the ranks of the Roman Catholics and other Arminians. If anyone doubts this charge let him read the article of faith adopted by the Catholics at the council of Trent (1563). I quote their statement on the freedom of the human will -- "If anyone shall affirm that since the fall of Adam man's free-will is lost, let him be accursed."

But in this day, such a spirit is not confined to the Roman Catholics. Horatius Bonar makes the following quotation from John Calvin: "The Papist theologians have a distinction current among themselves that God does not elect men according to their works which are in them but that He chooses them that He foresees will be believers."

The real trouble with the objector is not election; it is something else. His real objection is to total depravity or human inability to do good. I can do no better here than to quote from Percy W. Heward of London, England.

He says,

"It seems to me that the majority of objections to God's sovereign grace, to God's electing love, are actually objections to something else, namely objections to the fact that man is ruined. If you probe beneath the surface you will find that very few object to election. Why should they? Election harms no one. How can the picking of a man out of doom harm anyone else? The real objection at the present day is not to election, though that word is made the catchword of sad controversy -- the real objection is to that fact which is revealed in Psalm 51, that we are shapen in iniquity, that we are born sinners by nature, dead in sins, until, as we read concerning Paul in Galatians 1, 'It pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb and called me by His grace to reveal His Son in me...' Ah, beloved friends, we deserve nothing but doom. Acknowledge this and election is the only hope. Acknowledge that we are poor lost sinners, dead in trespasses and sins, only evil continually; acknowledge that there is in man no natural spark to be fanned into a flame but that believers are born again of incorruptible seed which the Lord places; acknowledge that if anyone is in Christ that there is a new creation, for we are His workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus; - and election must be at once recognized."​

Every real believer on his knees subscribes to our view of election. You cannot pray ascribing some credit to self. Sovereign grace will come out in prayer though it may be left off the platform. No saved man will get down on his knees before God .....and claim that he made himself to differ from others who are not saved, but with Paul he says, "By the grace of God I am what I am." And ..in praying for the lost we supplicate God to convict and convert them. We do not depend upon the freedom of their wills .....but beg God to make them willing to come to Christ, knowing that when they come to Christ He will not cast them out.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

If you pray as the Bible teaches us to pray, you pray as a Calvinist. GOD I AM A SINNER!!!

If you preach the way the Bible tells us to preach, you prach as if you are a freewiller.

WHOSOEVER WILL MAY COME.

Yet, it is GOD that saves not us.


In Chrsit...James

 

[Brother Bob]

This is the Scripture to us!
Ephesians, chapter 1

"11": In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

"12": That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

"13": In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


He plainly shows that we are not included in the predestinated but are added because of belief. In no way does it say WE are of the predestinated. Those that obtained the Inheritance and those who were added that believed the gospel when they heard it was different classes of people.

We are not those who first trusted in Christ (but the Apostles were). :Fish:

 

[saturneptune]

Brother Bob,
It is impossible to conduct a sane discussion with someone like Jauthor. It's called being baited. We have had many discussions and disagreements about Calvinism vs free will in a gracious manner. This is a slash and burn person, who is not interested in the debate, but to cause dissention for the sake of dissention. Best thing to do is ignore it. He does no favors to the side he argues for, whether it be Calvinsim or any other subject.

 

[Brother Bob]

Thank you Saturneptune;
I will try to ignore him in the future and refrain for letting him draw me into these personal attacks. I feel the same way but as a Christian, I have to quit letting people like that get to me. I am stronger than that but fell into their trap, but thanks to some advice from friends I am on my way to debating and not this foolishness. It serves no purpose at all. Thanks friend, :thumbs: Just shows a Calvinist and a Arminian can act like brothers in Christ.

 

[Dale-c]

Great post James.
I would try to add something but there is really not much else to say.

I understand new Christians who have not been taught believing in free will but to be shown repeatedly what the Bible plainly says and still blindly turn their faces makes you wonder.

 

[Dale-c]

As for BB, more ad hominem because you don't seem to be able to defend your side, which is to say, defend your own goodness in the face of the Bible's clear condemnation of all men as totally helpless an undone.

 

[Brother Bob]

Proverbs, chapter 6

"12": A naughty person, a wicked man, walketh with a froward mouth.

"13": He winketh with his eyes, he speaketh with his feet, he teacheth with his fingers;

"14": Frowardness is in his heart, he deviseth mischief continually; he soweth discord.

"15": Therefore shall his calamity come suddenly; suddenly shall he be broken without remedy.

"16": These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

"17": A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

"18": An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

"19": A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

"20": My son, keep thy father's commandment, and forsake not the law of thy mother:

"21": Bind them continually upon thine heart, and tie them about thy neck.

"22": When thou goest, it shall lead thee; when thou sleepest, it shall keep thee; and when thou awakest, it shall talk with thee.

"23": For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life: :Fish:

 

[Dale-c]

"17": A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

That is a good verse and chapter BB. Thanks for posting it.

One thing I have noticed in the modern Church as we have strayed from the Biblical teaching of the Lord of Lords, the God of God and King of Kings is that we naturally become more proud and arrogant.

I did nothing whatsoever to deserve my salvation. God alone reached down and saved me when I would have otherwise gone to hell.
I had heard the gospel countless times before and never understood or really cared until that one time, the time that God opened my eyes.
At that point I WANTED to trust him, I believed that He was the way to heaven. I believed He was the only way to save my sins.
But all of this because God opened my eyes. There was nothing in me deserving of anything.

"A proud Look is a serious problem and the more we pump up men with their own importance, the more that we will have to deal with Pride.

 

[Brother Bob]

delete post

 

[Dale-c]

delete post

What does that mean?