Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
Me4, did I say that this election in chapter 11 had anything to do with salvation? You tend to read too much into what people are saying, especially the parables and the days of creation. The election (foreknowledge) of the Jews had to do with God setting them apart before they even existed to fulfil His purpose.
And how many time has God had to chastise them for disobedience, I suppose their disobedience was also "predestined", uh???
But in reality, Paul does say "all Israel will be saved." Most dispies believe that all Jews alive at the end of the trib will be saved.
Any Jews who survive the trib will be a saved Jew, but the number will be so small a child can write it.
Isa 10:19 And the rest of the "trees" (people) of his forest shall be few, that a child may write them.
"NO MAN" comes to the father except through FAITH" in Jesus.
What, I didn't know that was in the Bible!!! Give me a break, Me4. Do you think Calvinists have no idea what the Scripture says? But you, who will quote that Scripture til you are blue in the face ignore the scriptures that talk about God choosing before the foundation of the world according to His purpose.
If you understand the scriptures why do you contradict God's statement of loving the whole world without respect of persons?
Faith that they didn't have, which made the devil their father.
I believe Jesus was talking specifically about the Pharisees there. Don't extend that to every Jew. Hey, weren't the apostles Jews? What about Mary Magdalene, Martha, and the other Mary? The devil wasn't their father, was he?
Jesus was speaking to everyone who didn't have faith in him, then/now.
Jesus said when he returns he'll find faith, so the plan of "FAITH" doesn't end until Jesus returns.
I agree with your point, but you really misquoted Scripture to get there.
Luke 18:8 Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?"
Do you notice that it is a question and not a statement? Try not to misquote Scripture to make your point. It doesn't work that way.
All through the trib people will have so much faith in Jesus they will "literally die" to be saved, and Jesus's return ends the trib.
So where do the plan of faith end??
"Foreknew" is the knowledge of who would/wouldn't accept salvation,
One more time with the Greek and English lession. The direct object of "foreknew" is NOT their future decision. The direct object is "those." Paul does not say, "Those whom He foreknew would choose Him, He predestined." Paul says, "Those whome He foreknew, He predestined." It would have been a perfect place for that rascally free-willer Paul to shut all of us Calvinists up. Instead, he accidentally chose a Greek construction that supports our point. Boy, did he mess that up!
Who were the "object" of "foreknew", those whom God "Foreknew" would chose salvation, would God predestine anyone to conform to Jesus's image whom he foreknew would not chose to be saved??/
"NO MAN" gets a ticket to heaven without "FAITH" in Jesus, Jew/Gentile,
I can only say, "duh!"
Predestination doesn't require a person to have faith in Jesus, like it or not, faith or no faith, they're going to be saved by an "IRRESISTABLE CALL", so explain, "many are called, few chosen", without respect of persons.
and without "YOUR FAITH" in Jesus there's "NO ELECTION", just as Jesus told the Jews.
But the election came FIRST, not faith. This is important. The faith didn't cause the election. The election causes the faith. "Those whom He foreknew, He predestined... Those whom He predestined, these He also called. Those whom He called, these He also justified. Those whom He justified, these He also glorified."
God gives the Grace of salvation, but you can't get to that grace/salvation unless "YOU" have Faith in Jesus.
Grace/salvation doesn't come before "FAITH" in Jesus, and "CHOSING" to believe or not, is the reason God save/condemn.
The only person who does ANYTHING in this passage which describes the plan of salvation is God. The focus is on God. The glory goes to God. You love Him because He first loved you.
God loved the whole world, and made provisions for the whole world to be saved, without respect of sinners, to say he loved me more than the next sinner makes him a respecter of sinner and a sinner himself.
Ro 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Interpreting foreknowledge out of the "CONTEXT" of other scripture makes God a sinner, I don't think you really want to go there.
