Ephesians 1 Clarified

[AustinC]

"See post # 35, as well as Ephesians 1:4-5."

Ephesians 1

4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,


Show us the line in Ephesians that say they are chosen to salvation. Show us the word salvation up there.

Read the beginning. All you folks do is take one piece and run with it.

1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus: 2Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

TO THE SAINTS. ALREADY SAVED FOLKS.


HE chose US already saved folks to be holy and blameless. THAT IS IT. Says nothing about you being chosen before time to be saved.

Are adopted children of God not saved out of their orphaned life of rebellion? Is God's choice, predestined before the foundation of the world, not enough to save us, who are God's children in Christ? Must the word "salvation" be written down and if not are we therefore not adopted children of God?

Utilyan, are you unable to see how silly you are being?

 

[Barry Johnson]

Or chosen to salvation?

" But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given [us] everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
17 comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work." ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-17 ).

Yes there are, Barry.

' through ' why didn't you highlight THROUGH ? . Chosen you to salvation THROUGH . THROUGH what ? Through a divine eternal decree, arbitrarily chosen to BE saved later in time by an 'awakening 'experience? No from the beginning these believers were not those who although experiencing great persecution and suffering had not missed the return of Jesus as a false letter had reported. No they were chosen through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
From the beginning God had chosen the vehicle in which belivers will be saved . And its not to be appointed to wrath as these believer's had thought was happening to them .
1 thes 5 The context that no calvinist ever bothers to check . Context never matters to a reformed thinking. He's got his proof text with his system.

8But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11¶Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Or chosen to salvation?

" But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given [us] everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
17 comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work." ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-17 ).

Yes there are, Barry.

There are 2 callings: Gospel and vocational, not inward or outward or effectual or ineffectual, etc… (2 Thess. 2:14; Eph. 4:1; Rom. 8:28; 2 Cor. 5:20)
And every time you see 'us ' its a normative use . We use this all the time . It doesn't mean its exclusive .

 

[utilyan]

Are adopted children of God not saved out of their orphaned life of rebellion? Is God's choice, predestined before the foundation of the world, not enough to save us, who are God's children in Christ? Must the word "salvation" be written down and if not are we therefore not adopted children of God?

Utilyan, are you unable to see how silly you are being?

Silly? If I was a Calvinist debating a non-Calvinist thinking I can get him to understand when supposedly I believe only GOD can do it, THAT WOULD BE SILLY.

Those mentioned in Ephesians 1 don't need salvation BECAUSE THEY WERE ALREADY SAVED. He is just telling them the cherry on top of being saved.

Its like if I said from before the foundation of the earth God chosen for we--> IN CHRIST(<YOU SAVED FOLK) THAT we would have the best treats in heaven.

Your heart is in the right place......YOUR reading comprehension, however requires sanctification.

Its hard for you to UNSEE because over repeatedly indoctrination. READ IT SLOWLY.

 

[AustinC]

Silly? If I was a Calvinist debating a non-Calvinist thinking I can get him to understand when supposedly I believe only GOD can do it, THAT WOULD BE SILLY.

Those mentioned in Ephesians 1 don't need salvation BECAUSE THEY WERE ALREADY SAVED. He is just telling them the cherry on top of being saved.

Its like if I said from before the foundation of the earth God chosen for we--> IN CHRIST(<YOU SAVED FOLK) THAT we would have the best treats in heaven.

Your heart is in the right place......YOUR reading comprehension, however requires sanctification.

Its hard for you to UNSEE because over repeatedly indoctrination. READ IT SLOWLY.

They were dead in their trespasses and sins, but God made them alive. Why was it that God made them alive with Christ? Ephesians 1 gives a crystal clear explanation.

 

[utilyan]

They were dead in their trespasses and sins, but God made them alive. Why was it that God made them alive with Christ? Ephesians 1 gives a crystal clear explanation.

No Ephesians 1 says what they are getting FOR being ALIVE in Christ. Because they are saved they are chosen to be holy and blameless before Him.

4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

Chose us in him for what? -->that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love .

Ephesians 2 says why God made them alive.....LITERALLY says why God did it and when.

4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),


12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

That is DURING the time they were SEPARATE , not IN HIM. "WHILE DEAD"


You have to take off the Calvinist Glasses, And read the scripture slowly for what it says rather then what someone else told you.

God Saved them because he was rich in mercy and has great love for them.

 

[utilyan]

You guys have been indoctrinated so every-time the word Chosen/Elect is thrown around it means Chosen to go to heaven.

Jesus Christ CHOSE, ELECTED the twelve Apostles, That does not mean Judas is Elect and Chosen to go into heaven.

What a person is chosen and elect for is explained in the context of the verse.

 

[Sai]

Lets see if I understand this thread:

Before God created any individual, or dry land, or the heavens and the earth, He chose foreseen individuals that He would create, not based on His knowledge of their foreseen faith, but rather unconditionally based not on any of their foreseen traits.
Perfectly reasonable working hypothesis.

But does scripture allow for such a view? Nope, scripture precludes such a view.

If we had been chosen by God individually before we were created, then we would always have been a people chosen by God. However 1 Peter 2:10 says once we were not a people, so the whole premise is bogus, unstudied, and false.

Now who was indeed chosen before creation? The Word, the Second Person of the Trinity (who actually existed before creation) was chosen to be God's Redeemer, His Lamb of God. (1 Peter 1:19-20) When God chose His Redeemer before creation He corporately chose all those to be redeemed, because you do not choose a redeemer without a plan to redeem.

This alternate view is consistent with all scripture.

Is that what it says or does your theology require it?

 

[AustinC]

No Ephesians 1 says what they are getting FOR being ALIVE in Christ. Because they are saved they are chosen to be holy and blameless before Him.

4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

Chose us in him for what? -->that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love .

Ephesians 2 says why God made them alive.....LITERALLY says why God did it and when.

4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),


12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

That is DURING the time they were SEPARATE , not IN HIM. "WHILE DEAD"


You have to take off the Calvinist Glasses, And read the scripture slowly for what it says rather then what someone else told you.

God Saved them because he was rich in mercy and has great love for them.

It's not future tense. You also misquote. In Ephesians 2 God says he made them alive, which is exactly what he has done for us as well.
They we're chosen and made holy, because God chose to redeem them.
utilyan, you continually preach God as less than and man as more than.
Paul tells us that it is all God. Why do you insist on lifting up the work of man and reducing the work of God?

 

[utilyan]

It's not future tense. You also misquote. In Ephesians 2 God says he made them alive, which is exactly what he has done for us as well.
They we're chosen and made holy, because God chose to redeem them.
utilyan, you continually preach God as less than and man as more than.
Paul tells us that it is all God. Why do you insist on lifting up the work of man and reducing the work of God?

You asked: Why was it that God made them alive with Christ?

Ephesians 2
4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

THAT is why.

Its not because he chose saved people to be holy and blameless before him.

 

[AustinC]

You asked: Why was it that God made them alive with Christ?

Ephesians 2
4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

THAT is why.

Its not because he chose saved people to be holy and blameless before him.

He chose dead people...before the foundation of the world...to make them alive with Christ. Do you see how that works? Do you see how the entirety of scripture fits together and God gets all the glory?

 

[utilyan]

He chose dead people...before the foundation of the world...to make them alive with Christ. Do you see how that works? Do you see how the entirety of scripture fits together and God gets all the glory?

That is not biblical. No verse says that.

It says 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

That :"US" is saved people. ---> 1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:

Nothing in the verse talks about salvation, other verses do. Nothing in that verse talks about being alive in Christ, other verses do.

We follow what scripture SAYS. Not what you wish it means.

 

[AustinC]

That is not biblical. No verse says that.

It says 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

That :"US" is saved people. ---> 1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:

Nothing in the verse talks about salvation, other verses do. Nothing in that verse talks about being alive in Christ, other verses do.

We follow what scripture SAYS. Not what you wish it means.

The "us" is...Adopted people who were once dead in our trespasses and sins.

If you must have the word "salvation" or "saved" for your brain to comprehend, then read this:

Ephesians 2:4-9 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

utilyan, you are fighting against God and His word. When will you stop fighting and accept what God tells you?

 

[Van]

Is that what it says or does your theology require it?

Not sure what you are questioning? Are you saying we could be chosen individually before creation and be "not a chosen people" when we are conceived? Are you saying 1 Peter 2:10 does not absolutely preclude Ephesians 1:4 from being an individual election, therefore a corporate election?

Many times the meaning of a verse or passage is ambiguous, with well studied people holding differing views as to its meaning, but 1 Peter 2:10 is not one of them. Its meaning is crystal.

You made reference to "my theology" as if it differed in some way from biblical theology. It does not.

 

[utilyan]

The "us" is...Adopted people who were once dead in our trespasses and sins.

If you must have the word "salvation" or "saved" for your brain to comprehend, then read this:

Ephesians 2:4-9 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

utilyan, you are fighting against God and His word. When will you stop fighting and accept what God tells you?

"The "us" is...Adopted people who were once dead in our trespasses and sins."

That is correct.

Ephesians 2:4-9 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Sounds great.


Doesn't change the fact you don't know how to read Ephesians 1.

GOD has CHOSEN for free men to get a brand new car. <--- That has nothing to do with slaves becoming free men.

All I can emphasis is find someone with an English major to read the verse for you.


I know your dilemma I just kicked the legs from underneath your chair and your now grasping to find the legs to hold up your wrong view. If you can think for yourself you can find another scripture.

EPHESIANS 1 <----YOU LOST THIS BATTLEFIELD.

 

[AustinC]

"The "us" is...Adopted people who were once dead in our trespasses and sins."

That is correct.

Ephesians 2:4-9 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Sounds great.


Doesn't change the fact you don't know how to read Ephesians 1.

GOD has CHOSEN for free men to get a brand new car. <--- That has nothing to do with slaves becoming free men.

All I can emphasis is find someone with an English major to read the verse for you.


I know your dilemma I just kicked the legs from underneath your chair and your now grasping to find the legs to hold up your wrong view. If you can think for yourself you can find another scripture.

EPHESIANS 1 <----YOU LOST THIS BATTLEFIELD.

utilyan, the readers can determine if I understand what God has shared in Ephesians 1.

What I don't understand is you. And you are not the spokesperson for God and Ephesians 1. If you cannot speak with clarity that is simply your problem.

What I can see is that you agree with me when I state:
"The "us" is...Adopted people who were once dead in our trespasses and sins."

 

[The Archangel]

That is not biblical. No verse says that.

It says 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

That :"US" is saved people. ---> 1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:

Nothing in the verse talks about salvation, other verses do. Nothing in that verse talks about being alive in Christ, other verses do.

We follow what scripture SAYS. Not what you wish it means.

But that's exactly what you're doing here. One cannot argue--logically--that Ephesians 1:4 says God chose us after we chose Him. The passage tells us--in simple grammar--"He chose us." Chose is in the middle voice, meaning God chose us for Himself (ie. His own reasons, His own good pleasure, etc.). That choice happened at a time in the past--before the foundation of the world. The language is quite clear. Yes, we were chosen to be holy and blameless, but holy and blameless is something we could never have chosen to be ourselves.

So, Ephesians 1 is really talking about God's initiating intervention in our salvation, not our response to Him.

The Archangel

 

[utilyan]

But that's exactly what you're doing here. One cannot argue--logically--that Ephesians 1:4 says God chose us after we chose Him. The passage tells us--in simple grammar--"He chose us." Chose is in the middle voice, meaning God chose us for Himself (ie. His own reasons, His own good pleasure, etc.). That choice happened at a time in the past--before the foundation of the world. The language is quite clear. Yes, we were chosen to be holy and blameless, but holy and blameless is something we could never have chosen to be ourselves.

So, Ephesians 1 is really talking about God's initiating intervention in our salvation, not our response to Him.

The Archangel

"That choice happened at a time in the past--before the foundation of the world. "

Again Calvinist always leave Jesus out, where it says "IN HIM".

I'll explain it for you again since you haven't read the thread.

Ephesians 1

4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

Ephesians 2

12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

YOU were NOT ALWAYS IN HIM.

You were SEPARATE FROM JESUS, with no covenant promises, IE NOT CHOSEN or ELECT for salvation, If you were CHOSEN and elect for salvation prior to being IN CHRIST then you would have the HIGHEST HOPE and GOD. Scripture says you had NIETHER.

Ephesians 1 is talking TO saved folks, And he is telling THOSE SAVED FOLKS, IN CHRIST Have been chosen for what? ----> Chosen to be holy and blameless.

He could have said they were chosen to take out the trash, chosen to eat all the cows, chosen to steer the clouds in heaven.

We read the sentence to see what they are chosen for.....This is called CONTEXT.


The problem is you have an eisegesis of loading the word CHOSEN, ELECT to ONLY mean CHOSEN for Salvation.

So the next time your buddy CHOSE to eat a Cheeseburger you don't assume he is ELECT of God and heaven bound.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

As usual, you neglect the full scripture to create an interpretation that is skewed. We have gone over this. You are wrong.

Sounds Catholic

 

[AustinC]

"That choice happened at a time in the past--before the foundation of the world. "

Again Calvinist always leave Jesus out, where it says "IN HIM".

I'll explain it for you again since you haven't read the thread.

Ephesians 1

4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

Ephesians 2

12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

YOU were NOT ALWAYS IN HIM.

You were SEPARATE FROM JESUS, with no covenant promises, IE NOT CHOSEN or ELECT for salvation, If you were CHOSEN and elect for salvation prior to being IN CHRIST then you would have the HIGHEST HOPE and GOD. Scripture says you had NIETHER.

Ephesians 1 is talking TO saved folks, And he is telling THOSE SAVED FOLKS, IN CHRIST Have been chosen for what? ----> Chosen to be holy and blameless.

He could have said they were chosen to take out the trash, chosen to eat all the cows, chosen to steer the clouds in heaven.

We read the sentence to see what they are chosen for.....This is called CONTEXT.


The problem is you have an eisegesis of loading the word CHOSEN, ELECT to ONLY mean CHOSEN for Salvation.

So the next time your buddy CHOSE to eat a Cheeseburger you don't assume he is ELECT of God and heaven bound.

I have no idea what stumbling block lies before you. We all know that our righteousness is found in Christ, not in ourselves. We all know that God chose us and predestined us to be brought to life, in Christ. We echo Paul's words in Galatians 2:20. "For I have been crucified with Christ, nevertheless not I, but Christ lives within me. And the life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me."

I honestly have no idea why you are so hung up on thinking Calvinists don't believe their entire existence is found in Christ. Every Reformed person I have ever met knows they are found in Christ and apart from Christ they are wretched.